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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2008.02.21 14:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zarch AlDain on 21/02/2008 14:41:35
I was reading the freighter dev blog and the comment that the only way to make jump ships slower was to reduce their range - and I had a brainwave. This is an idea that I think will also help with a lot of things that are bothering me about cynos and jumping at the moment too.
At the moment it is far too easy to cyno-ambush people. Basically scouting is useless as a single enemy can drop a massive capital fleet on you at any instant. There is also no meaningful 'speed' difference between cynoing ships other than their range.
So I am suggesting adding a new stat to cyno ships - LY/Second. An example figure might be:
Carrier: 1LY/s
Dreadnaught: 0.4LY/s
Mothership: 0.3LY/s
Titan: 0.3LY/s
Rorqual: 0.2LY/s
Jump Freighter: 0.2LY/s
Additionally there could (optionally) be a new skill added to increase jump speed and potentially even a new module/rig to do the same.
When you jump to a cyno then everything works the same as now until the point you hit jump. After that point a cyno light starts to appear at your destination and the cyno effect starts around your ship. Your ship will be frozen in place (same rules as when launching a cyno) as the jump drive operates. You can still use modules but cannot move or warp or dock.
If the cyno char is killed during this time then it aborts the jump (a way to counter cyno traps). If the carrier pilot is warp scrambled during this time then that also aborts the jump - making jumping a less effective way to escape a fight and also making a ship jumping out vulnerable (this could potentially require a certain amount of warp scrambling - i.e. 3 points of scram is needed to stop you jumping).
The amount of time needed is the number of light years to be jumped divided by the ships jump speed. For example a 5 LY jump would take a carrier 5 seconds - but would take a jump freighter 25 seconds. A 10 LY jump would take a jump freighter 50 seconds - during which they are vulnerable at their original system and announced at their destination system.
This will make no difference at all to short carrier jumps, but long distance jumps and moving of supplies would be made both slower and more dangerous. This would also allow the range of jump freighters to be increased, as the jumps themselves would take longer and be more dangerous.
Zarch AlDain
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.21 14:49:00 -
[2]
Making logistics dangerous... why not, but, there's another thing.
You have no way to avoid a pile of capitals to jump on your face.
The guys are ready, the covert ops decloaks, drops cyno, you pop him straight in a few seconds (they're dead on alpha with many ships), but after the cyno is dead, the carriers arrive.
Why they arrived after? Because as soon as the cyno was open, they clicked jump.
And then, the loading time took some time to make them arrive.
Well, just saying that you have no way to stop caps from jumping by destroying the cyno ship, it's just totally useless... The delay could make it possible.
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
The Unseen Company
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Posted - 2008.02.21 14:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 21/02/2008 14:58:24
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 21/02/2008 14:56:54
Nice way to prevent this would be not allowing to jump if other large ship is less then 100km away. So, one capital would have to warp to SS (or just 200km away) till next one jumps. This takes time and exposes to attack. Or you need a whole fleet of cyno ships, carefuly placed in one grid 120km of each other or simply scattered in many safespots.
So, incoming capital fleet takes time to move and/or requires very precise planning and/or is exposed to attack.
I'm quite sure it would make fleet battles much more tacticaly complex and BoBs ability to quickly move capital fleet - a much more admirable deed :)
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Conrad Rock
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.02.21 15:54:00 -
[4]
might aswell remove capital ships from the game
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.21 15:58:00 -
[5]
Your idea seems to make fleet jumping impossible...
Having a delay before jump is launched would allow to disrupt jumping which would be something new (and them cyno jammers can have reduced HP, they are not the only way to stop from jumping, just something you put online when you're away).
With possible jump disruption, and maybe some serialization (like 1 ship per second on a single cyno), then it would be need more strategy than bringing just one cyno ship and jump the fleet right when activated. So, it could turn into a cyno spam to ensure fleet is going, but it could also mean sending some logistic ships with a tanked cyno ship so it survives while the fleet is jumping.
Not just one crap expandable cyno ship and have dozens of caps jumping in the next second before even if the cyno ship is dead within 10 secs of the cyno launch.
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
The Unseen Company
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Posted - 2008.02.21 16:42:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Conrad Rock
might aswell remove capital ships from the game
Cyno traps are not their main function :) With limited fleet jumping, you'd just have to secure the jumping operation with BS fleet. Also, defender capital fleet has advantage if they react quickly - and thats good.
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Zarch AlDain
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2008.02.22 12:45:00 -
[7]
That's an interesting idea Ellaine but I think it goes too far.
The advantages/goals of my idea were threefold:
1. Make it possible to disrupt cyno traps (by killing the cyno) but still possible to pull them off (by having the caps close, by using fast-jumping ships, by keeping the cyno alive, etc).
2. Make it possible to disrupt cynoing out such as carriers that undock from a station then jump immediately which atm are virtually impossible to catch. (They may still manage to redock but one step at a time).
3. Make jumping 'slow' ships slower than jumping 'fast' ships.
Your idea seems to make it harder to jump large numbers (i.e. more than one) of capital ships at a time but doesn't actually address any of the things above except for point 1.
In particular slow ships would still jump just as fast as faster ones.
It also has the down side of being a logistical nightmare. It can take a carrier a minute to enter warp and get off grid. That would mean that at max you could jump 5 carriers to a recon ship, or 10 to a covops. Even my small alliance would be hit by that.
Zarch AlDain
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Katana Seiko
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.22 13:32:00 -
[8]
Well, the most things zarch suggests basically erase cyno warfare since you cannot open a cyno undetected...
If you change the cyno warfare at an other point - having the cyno field only show up when you come closer than maybe 2AU to the field - those changes might be possible, but if you take that out of the equation, cyno warfare becomes impossible.
But, if I may add to the "cyno takes time" idea: Why not make it take 30 seconds on both ends to dematerialize and rematerialize... Additionally, there should be something added like a cyno tunnel (close to the warp tunnel), where you can watch your progress through space on the seamless map and have a timer that tells you how long it'll take until you reach your target destination...
And, last but not least - why can't CCP make it possible to reach an other system by simply flying into that direction. We allready have proof that you can reach other systems, but the mechanics of EVE don't allow the system transition yet...
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This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline.
Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.22 13:44:00 -
[9]
You open 3 cynos and jump 1/3 of the fleet in each, at the end, 2/3 of the fleet will come, but you won't make a cyno death trap on a gang you drop the cyno on, they cyno won't last enough.
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
EliteSlave
Minmatar
Tau Ceti Global Production
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.22 14:17:00 -
[10]
Ok i can tell that most if not all of you guys have ever flown a cap..
1) Capitals do not need to be slower then they already are
2) Yes you may get hot dropped on by Capital Fleet, but just to let you know that is when the Cap Fleet is at its weakest since they are all going to be super low on cap, Now this is not the case with an Avatar in fleet due to the redicolus cap recharge bonus it gives out ( Dual Cap shield reps anyone? :) :) ) At this point they are Fodder. Hot Drops are mainly a Scare tactic IE: Drop on ya and see you run. or it is to gank another Capital that is alone and being tackled.
3) Capital Pilots are a rare breed but there are many people that have them but cant fly them / fit it ( Honour Tank anyone?)
4) Get out of Empire / Low sec and deal with Capitals and you will sing another tune, they are soo easy to kill jus have to know what your doing..
5) Capital Pilots cannot jump immediately after undocking, they have to wait 30 seconds after undocking before being able to use jump drives, and which in meantime you know theres a cap there u drop a dictor bubble and that cap aint going anywhere, Also u have a few vaga's / rapiers / huggins / curse / anything cruiser up and decent speed bump it from docking range, and you jus got a nice capital kill.
6) If you have never flown / own a capital you do not deserve the right to speak about them as you have no idea the pain that they really are jus to fly them. let alone a Supercap...
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throx
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.02.22 15:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: EliteSlave
Ok i can tell that most if not all of you guys have ever flown a cap..
1) Capitals do not need to be slower then they already are
2) Yes you may get hot dropped on by Capital Fleet, but just to let you know that is when the Cap Fleet is at its weakest since they are all going to be super low on cap, Now this is not the case with an Avatar in fleet due to the redicolus cap recharge bonus it gives out ( Dual Cap shield reps anyone? :) :) ) At this point they are Fodder. Hot Drops are mainly a Scare tactic IE: Drop on ya and see you run. or it is to gank another Capital that is alone and being tackled.
3) Capital Pilots are a rare breed but there are many people that have them but cant fly them / fit it ( Honour Tank anyone?)
4) Get out of Empire / Low sec and deal with Capitals and you will sing another tune, they are soo easy to kill jus have to know what your doing..
5) Capital Pilots cannot jump immediately after undocking, they have to wait 30 seconds after undocking before being able to use jump drives, and which in meantime you know theres a cap there u drop a dictor bubble and that cap aint going anywhere, Also u have a few vaga's / rapiers / huggins / curse / anything cruiser up and decent speed bump it from docking range, and you jus got a nice capital kill.
6) If you have never flown / own a capital you do not deserve the right to speak about them as you have no idea the pain that they really are jus to fly them. let alone a Supercap...
Agreed. |
Zarch AlDain
The Establishment
Establishment
|
Posted - 2008.02.23 16:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EliteSlave
Edited by: EliteSlave on 22/02/2008 16:03:21
Ok i can tell that most if not all of you guys have never flown a cap..
1) Capitals do not need to be slower then they already are
2) Yes you may get hot dropped on by Capital Fleet, but just to let you know that is when the Cap Fleet is at its weakest since they are all going to be super low on cap, Now this is not the case with an Avatar in fleet due to the redicolus cap recharge bonus it gives out ( Dual Cap shield reps anyone? :) :) ) At this point they are Fodder. Hot Drops are mainly a Scare tactic IE: Drop on ya and see you run. or it is to gank another Capital that is alone and being tackled.
3) Capital Pilots are a rare breed but there are many people that have them but cant fly them / fit it ( Honour Tank anyone?)
4) Get out of Empire / Low sec and deal with Capitals and you will sing another tune, they are soo easy to kill jus have to know what your doing..
5) Capital Pilots cannot jump immediately after undocking, they have to wait 30 seconds after undocking before being able to use jump drives, and which in meantime you know theres a cap there u drop a dictor bubble and that cap aint going anywhere, Also u have a few vaga's / rapiers / huggins / curse / anything cruiser up and decent speed bump it from docking range, and you jus got a nice capital kill.
6) If you have never flown / own a capital you do not deserve the right to speak about them as you have no idea the pain that they really are jus to fly them. let alone a Supercap...
Have you even seen my corp ticker? We pioneered hot dropping and were dropping a mothership on peoples heads for a year before anyone else started fielding them. For years we replaced lost fighter drones from those looted from the wrecks of carriers we killed.
I fly capitals a lot and am well aware of everything you list.
When is the last time you dropped a dictor bubble in low sec? Or for that matter always had a dictor handy when a hostile tried to undock?
When hot dropping you bring in overwhelming numbers. Last time we got hot dropped and lost anything serious to it it was a titan, a bunch of battleships, 10 or so carriers and assorted interdictors/etc that landed on our heads.
The most recent time it was around 30 capital ships - although we didn't actually lose anything to that one.
They may be coming in weakened but as you say yourself they come in in overwhelming numbers. It's also impossible to effectively scout as any system within about 20 jumps could potentially hold the ambushers.
Zarch AlDain
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