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The Reverend
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Posted - 2004.04.06 12:18:00 -
[121]
The simple thing to do, is limit insurance depending on the class of the ship. For example, maybe have a BS for 3 weeks insurance, cruiser 6 weeks, frigate 12 weeks. That will help the newer players whom the insurance idea was meant for, as well as bringing more low end ships out to play.
m0ovie links |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.04.06 13:28:00 -
[122]
Insurance should not pay out for self destructed ships.
!*AND*!
Insurance should not pay out if you are destroyed by someone you are at WAR with.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.04.06 14:27:00 -
[123]
Guys you need to understand that CCP wants to encourage people to venture out into lawless space. Putting any kind of limitation on insurance would accomplish the opposite and it hurts nobody besides the casual player.
Limiting insurance will not solve the problem and it will not give fighting in this game any purpose.
Mai's Idealog |
Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.04.06 14:31:00 -
[124]
Why is insurance needed in Empire in the first place, if you are at war then ok but other than that why?
I mean .4 and less mining is not hugely risky and you can as long as you watch local escape to a station or gate if pirates happen to visit.
0.0 is meant to be a risk so going there you are asking for trouble anyway whether it be from NPC rats or pirates.
So realy insurance is not needed, in empire you are safe, unless you are at war which then the risk will be same for both sides. In 0.0 you venture out there you take your chances.
I know it was meant to draw player in to PvP and in 0.0 but I bet most of the players in wars and pirating in 0.0 would be there no matter what, its the miners who feel they should have a piece of the megazyd pie that have benifited.
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.04.06 15:40:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 06/04/2004 16:03:04
For small and medium corps without access to 0.0 finding the money to fully insure a few BS is a struggle as it is, paying out 36mill every 3 weeks for full insurance for a few BS was just not practical and losing a BS was / still is a major blow. The most u can mine in 0.1 û 1.0 is 2mill an hour mining Hedb. Mining is fricking boring as it is and many players just arenÆt going to risk 100mills worth of BS and mods (= weeks of mining) with no insurance out in 0.0. Most of 0.0 is zipped up by alliances, sure you can sneak out into 0.0 but you canÆt exactly stay hidden with the ôuber powerful mapö showing the location of every player in eve :)
Sure go out to 0.0 in cruisers and frigates, but u canÆt really pvp as most peeps are in a BS, add on to that the fact that even in a BS, uber skill players can still be dealing 20-40% more damage and are able to fit a lot better setups. This game is very skill orientated and thus there is a big skills gap developing between the older players and those joining now.
Take away insurance in 0.0 and you soon realise small / med corps especially those with newer members will just get slaughtered. If you want to encourage more pvp then removing insurance (as the game currently stands) is going to have the opposite effect.
I understand exactly what you are getting at in relation to being unable to ôwinö a corp war as it were, but I think only alliances / big corps really have this problem. Most corps donÆt have access to the income you get from mining in 0.0 and most small / med corps donÆt / canÆt afford to insure all there memberÆs ships. The only way you could maybe win would be to target all the mining ops of a corp in 0.0 and prevent them from gaining the mega and Zy to build more.
If you want to encourage more peeps into 0.0 and pvp then the biggest thing that needs nerfing is the all powerful map as any decent sized mining op just shows up as one big blob. Removing the ôshow all players in space optionö is going to have to be done soon anyway, otherwise come Shiva player owned stations will be useless except for those that can manage 24/7 protection (not many). The greatest weapon one has is secrecy, and being able to hide player facilities in 0.0 will allow smaller corps the chance to own POS and prosper. This is good for everyone including pirates who will be able to mount raids against these player owned stations and factories when they find them. Just imagine stealing a Tech 3 bpo from a hidden research station deep in 0.0 or a production run of Tech 3 Tachyon Laser cannons :)
If you want to make insurance more realistic then add a premium system based on sec status and number of claims. Peeps with low sec rating pay more and for every claim you make your insurance costs more. Therefore those in prolonged corp wars would have VERY large insurance premiums thus making it possible to win a war through attrition. Peeps who donÆt claim would build up a no claims bonus and thus could reduce there insurance premiums by up to say 65%.
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.04.06 15:54:00 -
[126]
 Quote:
If you want to make insurance more realistic then add a premium system based on sec status and number of claims. Peeps with low sec rating pay more and for every claim you make your insurance costs more. Therefore those in prolonged corp wars would have VERY large insurance premiums thus making it possible to win a war through attrition. Peeps who don’t claim would build up a no claims bonus and thus could reduce there insurance premiums by up to say 65%.
So in effect your plan at premiums would make Empire mining an even more viable money making option and not increase the trips to 0.0.
Players would just mine Empire for as long to build up good no claims bonus's. This would make the losing of BS even more of a pain because not only would you be looking at the isk to buy and insure you would lose your no claims!!
Giving another weapon to beat CCP with or pirates or PvPers or whoever else gets in the way of them and their risk free empire building!
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.04.06 17:23:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 06/04/2004 17:25:45
Quote:
Quote:
If you want to make insurance more realistic then add a premium system based on sec status and number of claims. Peeps with low sec rating pay more and for every claim you make your insurance costs more. Therefore those in prolonged corp wars would have VERY large insurance premiums thus making it possible to win a war through attrition. Peeps who donÆt claim would build up a no claims bonus and thus could reduce there insurance premiums by up to say 65%.
So in effect your plan at premiums would make Empire mining an even more viable money making option and not increase the trips to 0.0.
Players would just mine Empire for as long to build up good no claims bonus's. This would make the losing of BS even more of a pain because not only would you be looking at the isk to buy and insure you would lose your no claims!!
Giving another weapon to beat CCP with or pirates or PvPers or whoever else gets in the way of them and their risk free empire building!
I said realistic:) Ok so maybe the no claims bonus is a bad idea, but the idea was to lessen the insurance hit to those that donÆt / cant engage in pvp. You wouldn't lose all your no claims bonus, it would just decrease.
But you canÆt have it both ways; if you want more peeps in 0.0 then you need to make it accessible. Mining in empire is far from profitable compared to what you earn in 0.0, sure there is less risk, but it isnÆt zero risk as to make any decent money you have to mine in 0.1-0.4 systems. Most peeps canÆt afford insurance as it is, and with no insurance in 0.0 even fewer peeps would be out there.
Getting into a position where you are financially secure enough to take the kind of losses you will receive in 0.0 with no insurance would only be possible for already established alliances and corps out there with deep pockets. Getting wiped out early on (which will happen with the current uber "all seeing map") means most corps would have to stay in empire.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.04.06 19:29:00 -
[128]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 06/04/2004 19:32:46
You can't claim I am trying to kill off PVP by making a fight's outcome meaningful, then ask for the map to be removed. At least half the fights in this game rely on watching dots on the map- probably closer to 90% for our corp
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Adriana
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Posted - 2004.04.08 08:50:00 -
[129]
Seems to me this would be much easier if...
They just went ahead and changed the way sec status works.
Three pod kills (in empire) and you are forever more -10 sec status. There should be no way to raise this.
Now tie insurance to sec status. As a known mass murderer you are uninsurable by reputable companies. So you can get insurance through pirate stations, at +50% cost. The contracts last no more than 3 weeks.
Take it further and say that as a mass murderer you are unable to get your clone updated by any medical unit in empire space. Since it's far more costly to get service technicians to risk their lives in 0.0 than in empire, your clone now costs 2-3 times what it currently costs.
...now you have the money sink you want, without harming casual players.
If you really want to carry this on to the lowest denominator, decrease all npc buy orders in 0.0 space (what they will pay), and add a +20% surtax on anything they sell. This difference can be accounted for in the risk it takes to move good to the risky locations.
Now you will spend a lot more money which will force people to lose their shirts. Sounds wonderful huh?
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte |
Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.04.16 12:13:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Xavier Arron on 16/04/2004 12:14:31
Quote:
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 06/04/2004 19:32:46
You can't claim I am trying to kill off PVP by making a fight's outcome meaningful, then ask for the map to be removed. At least half the fights in this game rely on watching dots on the map- probably closer to 90% for our corp
I hear a lot of peeps saying they need the map to find people to pvp, but having an all seeing map is not the way to do it. The problem is we lack any decent kind of skills / tools for tracking / hunting ships down.
The ôall powerful mapö that shows the location of every pilot in EVE, gives away pirate gank points and deters peeps from even trying to go into 0.0, in the same breath penalises those they do venture out into 0.0, by clearly showing exactly where they are.
The map allows small groups of ships to control large areas of space, and makes it impossible for any small / med corp to sneak about and mine in 0.0 since any decent sized op immediately attracts attention. 0.0 space is supposed to be the unknown wastelands, out of influence of Concorde and the other empires. It should be possible to hide in 0.0, instead as soon as you go out there u light up like a homing beacon on the map, and basically wave a little flag saying "gank me!!!"
Nerf options like show all pilots in space option on the map, and add skills and modules to allow pirates / pvpers to more easily track peeps. Modules such as a warp analyser to allow you to ôhunt / trackö other peeps down would be good. Anyone who played Elite 2 will know what IÆm talking about. Basically every time you warp you leave a small warp cloud which persists for several minutes. The warp analyser module would take say 30-60 secs to calculate the point where the ship exited and thus the player can warp to that point. Would make for some interesting chases / hunting across multiple systems and make it easy to find peeps who hide in safe spots :)
Hopefully when black op frigates come in they will solve this to a degree but it should be possible to "Hunt" ships across multiple systems and a module like the warp analyser would allow this to be done. (Before peeps moan about lag, the warp cloud / warp trail would be a single static object like a cargo container with all the graphical dressing client side and you could make it so that they didnÆt even show up until you have turned on the warp analyser module.)
Removing uber map options like ôshow all players in spaceö option is going to have to be done soon anyway, otherwise come Shiva player owned stations will be useless except for those that can manage 24/7 protection (not many). The greatest weapon one has is secrecy, and being able to hide player facilities in 0.0 will allow smaller corps the chance to own POS and prosper. This is good for everyone including pirates who will be able to mount raids against these player owned stations and factories when they find them. Just imagine stealing a Tech 3 bpo from a hidden research station deep in 0.0 or a production run of Tech 3 Tachyon Laser cannons :)
I believe nerfing the all powerful map is one step in getting more peeps / corps out into 0.0. With the recent in flux of new peeps into EVE hopefully more of the 5000 systems we have will get filled and that will be more fun for everyone :)
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Malena VXXI
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Posted - 2004.04.16 13:23:00 -
[131]
if ccp in any way in any small thinking of changing the insurance to the worst I withdraw my IRL payments to ccp
Im not surprised if alot of other players do the same
not all people can play the game all week long + 8 hours a day most people have work most people are thinking EVE is a game not another work
and for god sake think abit ..
Miner | Trader |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.04.19 10:52:00 -
[132]
Quote:
Edited by: Stavros on 06/04/2004 05:26:47
12 week insurance is an absolute joke and one of the reasons i'm playing lineage 2 instead of eve at the moment. There is NO benefit to being a rich corp with multiple divisions to finance a battle fleet, instead any noob corp that can save up for bships and then scrape a few more mills together for some insurance is pretty much in battleships for life...
You kill someone and OH NO, in the time it takes em to fly to empire and buy a new ship and some stock modules they are back...
Before the insurance carebear super gheyness, battles in eve were pointless, now battles are just a waste of time, there just for the enjoyment of them i suppose, there is no other real point, ship kills/losses mean nothing really.
Turn it back the way it was or make it even worse imho, give props to people and corps who have talent for economics and money making in eve rather than just noobs in insured bships...
END OF POST IS HERE
Stavros
In lineage 2 you can pk someone and they only lose 10%... that sucks more than people losing clones, items and few mils on battleships.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Xelios
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Posted - 2004.04.19 11:07:00 -
[133]
The more often you die, the more your insurance costs next time. If you don't die in a certain amount of time, your insurance goes down. This way newbies can get cheap insurance, carebears won't have to spend their precious isk on too much insurance, and pvp losses will have meaning again.
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2004.04.19 12:11:00 -
[134]
I have to disagree with this whole argument.
Saying that insurance means little consequence to PVPers is wrong.
Even if the insurance replaced all the weapons and ammo you lost it is still 20 million each time you get destroyed just to renew the insurance.
This is hardly peanuts and means that players who PVP often have to spend a lot on insurance and are thus being heavily penalised for losing ships.
Problem is that players such as I who have been playing 10 months or so and have lost the fantatical buzz cant own battleships if the insurance is only 3 weeks.
I only play a few hours a week now and if insurance didnt last as long I would spend all the time playing just to pay for insurance.
I think the insurance system at the moment is just right. Its expensive and means PVP'ers are penalised for losing a ship but not too bad for those who dont PVP.
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Muthsera
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Posted - 2004.04.19 12:50:00 -
[135]
The insurence is 12 weeks now..
And I whould atleast like to see an implant insurence.
It's nothing quite as irritating to lose anything as your implants.
The ship you can build, the implants you can't build.
(another good point actually)
SoonÖ
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2004.04.20 11:41:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Muthsera
The insurence is 12 weeks now..
And I whould atleast like to see an implant insurence.
It's nothing quite as irritating to lose anything as your implants.
The ship you can build, the implants you can't build.
(another good point actually)
Actually that goes against the whole thread.
The point that the guy was making is that there is no risk in fighting.
I pointed out that the price of insurance at 20 mil + is enough of a loss to make fighting a risk.
You have inadvertently backed up that argument in that if you go into combat with implants you have yet another risk factor added in.
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