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Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.25 05:32:00 - [1] Recently on the Market Discussions boards we've had some obvious scams. These scams were pitiful, poorly thought-out, and attempted by people whose names were similar to, in certain cases, "LOLiScammedYou". This is a guide to try to beat some sense into these criminals with a tire iron. Definition of Scamming What scamming IS: Scamming is an inefficient way of cashing in your reputation for money (or isk, in Eve). It's defrauding people with false promises or blatant lies. Scamming can return only the value of what you put into it, and no more. More on this later. What scamming is NOT: Scamming is not a "get rich quick" scheme. It can return at most the value of your reputation with the individual(s) you are attempting to defraud, and can never actually MAKE any money. Scamming does not make something from nothing. Your reputation has a value, and always has. After a scam, this value is lost. How to Scam In order to launch a successful scam, one must have the following items: 1. A reputation A reputation can be built through intelligent forum discourse, through frequent and blatant brown-nosing of CCP devs, mods, and/or forum regulars, from previously successful non-scam operations, or from hitching on the coattails of a friend or reference who themselves has a good reputation. Read the following pages, and emulate these famous scams' ways of falsifying reputation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme http://www.state.gov/www/regions/africa/naffpub.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_drop 2. A reason Why do you want to scam? What are you going to do with the money you get? Is it going to be easier than other methods to accomplish? Are you doing it 'for the lulz'? Whatever your reason, make it a good one, and make the scam worth your time. 3. A target amount How much is your reputation worth? Well, you're about to find out if it's worth a lot less than you think it is when you try to scam people. Aim low, if possible; as low as possible to still meet your method. Do you need only a hundred million isk? That's fine. Don't ask for too much and tone it down; this will put your potential 'investors' on their guard, and they will see through your scam. 4. A method Launch your proposal, IPO, or business plan through your own forum thread. Respond kindly and as accurately as possible with as many irrefutable lies as possible to potential marks. Avoid offending potential marks. The customer is always right - until you're gone. With their money. Kiss butt in your proposal thread, accept reasonable restrictions and restructures. Never make your investors feel like anyone is wasting their time reading your thread. Pretend to be as informed as possible, and never get caught in a lie. Never talk about things you don't fully understand. Why Scamming is a Waste of Your Time A successful proposal, IPO, or business plan will increase the value of your reputation and pay out in the process. Sometimes, even a failed business is good for your reputation. A scam, whether successful or not, will never pay out more than what you put into it. This makes it a horrible business decision, by anyone, at any time. And remember that if you don't already have a reputation, it takes ACTUAL WORK to build one. Instead of posting garbage threads, if you don't want to take the time to scam properly just go run some missions. Seriously. Reasons I Would Scam Are there good reasons to take the reputation hit for scamming? My thought: Absolutely. However, making money is not one of them. My reputation is worth more to me than a pile of isk; mostly because it can make me more isk in my hands than it can on the floor. I would only consider pulling a scam or a theft on a specific corporation or individual who has done me a very personal, specific wrong. There are very few reasons I would throw away my reputation.
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.02.25 05:36:00 - [2] Ahh sarcasm and wit! Eve Web Design \| Eve Addicts \| RPGN.net
Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.25 05:36:00 - [3] If anyone has anything constructive to add to help scammers scam better, please chime in. Personally, I won't be scammed and neither will the majority of the people I know on this board. Setting loose a bunch of well informed, eloquent scammers would be a great way to reduce competition, don't you think? And it would be great to not see so many garbage posts.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.25 05:55:00 - [4] Interesting post Rhiraven http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043 Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE!
jongalt	Posted - 2008.02.25 07:11:00 - [5] the OP is too "catholic" in his moralism. i recommend a diet of nietzsche with a side-order of nihilism from dostevsky's novel, "Demons". or you could just read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick -0.
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.02.25 07:22:00 - [6] Also read Scammers Cookbook to see what scams are going on and be wary of them. Not just scams, but also some con tricks to lead prey into suicide gank locations.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.25 09:51:00 - [7] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/02/2008 09:54:58 It's been fun to read, although you are wrong about something at the very beginning. In time reputation increases exponentially the amount you can scam. Why most of you reputable individuals don't scam is a result of your upbringing that successfully ironed out any potential deviant behavior trends from your subconsciousness.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.25 11:38:00 - [8] Alternatively people don't scam because they can make more money by being honest. And not only that, make more money consistently. Also reputation extends well beyond the ISK you have.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.25 12:42:00 - [9] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/02/2008 12:45:22 Originally by: Mr Horizontal Alternatively people don't scam because they can make more money by being honest. And not only that, make more money consistently. Also reputation extends well beyond the ISK you have. As long as the nature of your business implies consistently relying on honesty to propel itself then yes. Otherwise there are only 2 things to consider: utility, finality.
jongalt	Posted - 2008.02.25 15:46:00 - [10] ripped, thats called a False Dilemma. it's a rationalization at best. your Nature vs. Nurture argument of "why" people dont scam is flawed as well. i recommend looking into "Applied Ethics" (ed. by Peter Singer, an Australian Philo btw), page 125, "It Makes No Difference Whether I Do It Or Not" as a start. read more. play less. at least you can write decently. so, in a sense (innocence?), you are a "half-breed" half-literate. and really, take a look at "freakonomics". you might be surprised... -jg.
Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.25 17:25:00 - [11] YouGotRipped, you would have done a bit better if you'd made some attempt to establish reputation before dropping your schemes. Your name is worthless around here, and you had no rep to speak of. Unfortunately, after your poorly thought out schemes, you now have negative reputation and are sadly unable to profit with it - via legitimate means or otherwise. Next time don't tell your marks (sorry, 'investors') that they aren't worth your time.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.25 17:51:00 - [12] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/02/2008 10:05:08 It's been fun to read, although you are wrong about something at the very beginning. In time reputation increases exponentially the amount you can scam. Why most of you reputable individuals don't scam is a result of your upbringing that successfully ironed out any potential deviant behavior trends from your subconsciousness. These cases of blissful ignorance defying logics is what keeps the society together. Not to mention that for some of you, knowing that others praise you is worth more than a whole pile of isk. No names given. At least we now know definitively what the point of your "IPO" was. Or at the very least that you value ISK above reputation... which is really enough to know you're not worth investing a penny into.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.25 18:36:00 - [13] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/02/2008 18:38:08 Originally by: jongalt Edited by: jongalt on 25/02/2008 15:59:15 ripped, thats called a False Dilemma. it's a rationalization at best. your Nature vs. Nurture argument of "why" people dont scam is flawed as well. i recommend looking into "Applied Ethics" (ed. by Peter Singer, an Australian Philo btw), page 125, "It Makes No Difference Whether I Do It Or Not" as a start. read more. play less. at least you can write decently. so, in a sense (innocence?), you are a "half-breed" half-literate. really, take a look at "freakonomics". you might be surprised... and for something "less dry", that might pertain to both scammers and "the catholic moralists" alike, i recommend Harry G. Frankfurt's chapbooks titled, "On Bull**it" & "On Truth". -jg. I was expecting some genetic determination comments really. But since you went far enough to reach for your dearest philosophy books I also suggest reading some papers on the background of awareness and perhaps something esoteric like Zen enlightenment. Hahah
Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.25 18:47:00 - [14] Personally, I am an ore thief and a cutthroat businessman and have in the past gotten serious kicks out of confidence tricks such as: 1. "Come join my group!" 2. Lock door 3. Kill 4. Full loot 5. PROFIT!!! Claiming that I have some kind of moral objection to scamming and that's why I don't do it is a crock of bull. It has nothing to do with my upbringing - I refuse to associate myself with people like YouGotRipped because it's: 1. Damaging to profits 2. Pointless (I play Eve to earn isk. Right now all I'm doing is mising. I don't even need it except to say "Look how much isk I can make trading! Aren't I cool?") 3. More work than legitimately trading Also, with a decent reputation I can get however much isk I'd ever need from my corporation, contacts, or investors. Anything I would ever use isk for will generate MORE isk than it took to get moving. Thus, I secure an endless chain of having enough money, each business having more available capital than the last. By the time I exhaust my legitimate money making ability I'll have no need for embezzled funds. It's simply good business.
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.02.25 21:28:00 - [15] welp if you are gona scam just remember this, not eeryone reads the forums and there will always be new players ;) ---------------------------------------------
jongalt	Posted - 2008.02.25 21:51:00 - [16] Originally by: YouGotRipped I was expecting some genetic determination comments really. But since you went far enough to reach for your dearest philosophy books I also suggest reading some papers on the background of awareness and perhaps something esoteric like Zen enlightenment. Hahah oh? have you read dawkins' The Selfish Gene? or only Chapter 11? perhaps, you'd like to discuss what he had to say about religion? that would be great! (although perhaps its not appropriate in this thread...) as for papers on Zen Buddhism & "awareness": i burned those books on a mountain quite a while ago. you know, back when i was 15 and i thought kerouac was cool. (i preferred burrough's nihilism and "junk philosophy"). or did you mean something more "appropriately contextual" like Vik Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning"? had you even "looked" at the references id suggested - like dostoevsky's "the demons" for instance, youd see that "awareness" had already been "made aware of". i recommend looking for kirilov's "argument" over why he should kill himself as a means of killing god, as a means of being god, as a means of transcending god. (its a great subplot, that will perhaps be the MD's final "undoing" given the appropriate context, scam and "victim"). or you could just read the summary in the chapter on bigD in camus' "the myth of sysiphus". blah blah blah. youGotRipped's "bon mots" are like the words he butchers and mistakes for "content" or "witty repartee" - that is, they are wrapped in diapers to cover the stench of his Void. in other words, youGotRipped?--->aVoid. -jg.
Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Anqara Tech	Posted - 2008.02.25 23:23:00 - [17] Something the OP didnt mention, but probably works better in RL: The best scams are those where there is reduced risk to the scammers reputation, because the victim wont admit that they were scammed, for some reason. That way, the scammers reputation is only lost towards the victim, and not towards other people. This probably works best when the scam is to get the victim to participate in something illegal or embarrassing, so that they wont want to admit what happened when things go wrong for them.
Neuraxis Aeon Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.26 02:25:00 - [18] Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 26/02/2008 02:24:56 Scam's are easy to avoid is you remember 1 simiple rule. If its too good to be true....
Stephannus Calimben mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.26 03:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon Edited by: Neuraxis Aeon on 26/02/2008 02:24:56 Scam's are easy to avoid is you remember 1 simiple rule. If its too good to be true.... this. people don't scam by "cashing in on their reputation," they do it by playing off a person's innate greed. For instance, the "give me isk and i ll send you x10" or any of those nigerian phishing scams. people dont give you money because they trust you, they do it because they think that they can make some quick money scamming YOU. other scams people have used are using game mechanics to conceal what would be a blatant scam if someone was paying attention.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.02.26 04:35:00 - [20] I don't get it.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.26 08:51:00 - [21] Originally by: jongalt Originally by: YouGotRipped I was expecting some genetic determination comments really. But since you went far enough to reach for your dearest philosophy books I also suggest reading some papers on the background of awareness and perhaps something esoteric like Zen enlightenment. Hahah oh? have you read dawkins' The Selfish Gene? or only Chapter 11? perhaps, you'd like to discuss what he had to say about religion? that would be great! (although perhaps its not appropriate in this thread...) as for papers on Zen Buddhism & "awareness": i burned those books on a mountain quite a while ago. you know, back when i was 15 and i thought kerouac was cool. (i preferred burrough's nihilism and "junk philosophy"). or did you mean something more "appropriately contextual" like Vik Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning"? had you even "looked" at the references id suggested - like dostoevsky's "the demons" for instance, youd see that "awareness" had already been "made aware of". i recommend looking for kirilov's "argument" over why he should kill himself as a means of killing god, as a means of being god, as a means of transcending god. (its a great subplot, that will perhaps be the MD's final "undoing" given the appropriate context, scam and "victim"). or you could just read the summary in the chapter on bigD in camus' "the myth of sysiphus". blah blah blah. youGotRipped's "bon mots" are like the words he butchers and mistakes for "content" or "witty repartee" - that is, they are wrapped in diapers to cover the stench of his Void. in other words, youGotRipped?--->aVoid. -jg. This is obviously not the place to further this discussion, though if you mail me ingame I might show compassion.
Brun Thorvald	Posted - 2008.02.26 13:06:00 - [22] Go for the classics - look up "Credit Mobilier" for a start, then think about the Capship parts biz in Delve. Disguise the theft. For example ... we go in with a business plan of renting some 0.0 space, setting some Mining Ops up and watching the cash roll in. We do this for a while. Then, alas, we get mugged by Pirates. Kerboom, we're broke, ahh well, we told you it was risky. No, the landlord didnt defend us - the rent was to let us in, not keep us safe. Of course, you're running the Pirates, and running off with various bits of ships your investors paid for. Debt-equity fandango. Have a biz thats actually a little bit profitable but not very. Lend your own money to the business at reasonable interst, then have shareholders who get paid after the debt. Alas, business is slightly less good than we hoped ... little bit there for shareholders after we paid the secured loans from parties who want to remain anonymous (especially good if they are secured on something like hi-end BOPs held by the secured noteholder (aka you) with the actual operation running on copies made by the noteholder (aka you)) Hope these ideas help improving scamming in EvE.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Brun Thorvald Hope these ideas help improving scamming in EvE. You didn't actually say anything. Your entire post was just random words that don't even make sense.
Hameska	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:48:00 - [24] What's up with this "my book is bigger than your book!" crap. Who cares. Interesting post OP, although I disagree with your point that you only get out of a scam what you put into it. If by that you mean that you only get back the work you've put into your reputation, then I believe you're wrong. Reputation is definitely part of the equation, but you ignore other factors that go along with a successful scam, such as the greed of other players. Reputation is important, but more goes into the mix than reputation alone. Fun to see some scamming posts in the forums tho, haha.

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