EVE Search - Do Matari fleets suck

All Channels

EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

Do Matari fleets suck

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Vherlena Mott	Posted - 2008.03.02 03:01:00 - [1] Watching the video clips of the contest, one of the commentators said it would be great to see Ushra Khan (congats!) field an all Minmatar fleet, but "I don't fancy their chances" So I'm wondering, "What's up with that?" Shouldn't racial fleets be designed to work really well together? Is there something wrong with Minmatar ships? This is a serious question. I love the Minmatar theme so it bums me out to think our ships are gimped.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.02 03:14:00 - [2] minmatar ships bring speed to the table. however the arena is small and the thoraxe gets a bonus to MWD, which is much better in this instance. they also bring capless weapons. However they are not the best at tank due to having the lowest cap and they don't do the best dps. However they do the best alpha damage in the game more or less, and thus would be the best at breaking a logtisics tank. Basically I think people prefer armor tanking set ups for whatever reason. Which is all well and fine, amybe we'll see some minmatar set ups tomorrow.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.02 03:17:00 - [3] as they also mentioned, minnies tend to rely on speed aka hit'n'run. alas, that's a lil difficult in such a limited box of an arena. thus, tank is important and matari vessels are just not famous for theirs. the vagas may have worked in the very first match of this tourney, but that puny drone damage (and maybe autocannons in deep falloff) is not likely to break any team with remote reppers. a tempest's alpha may be very cute in fleets larger than 10 BS but not here. but it's not like everything sucks for minnies - it's just that i don't see a complete package covering as many bases as the other races. - putting the gist back into logistics
Minaras Laentic The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.02 04:47:00 - [4] Minmatar ships excell at guirilla(Spelling?)-warfare, and rely alot on the elements of speed and surprise(as the above poster said, hit&run). An organized match therefore tends to work against the main strength of minnie ships, especially with the even more limited arena space. Only people who fails in real life quote's themselves -Minaras Laentic
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.02 05:15:00 - [5] I'd love to see some of the heavier tanking Minmatar ships fielded, more Cyclones, Sleipnirs, Maelstroms etc, A properly tanked cyclones can be incredibly hard to kill thanks to the sweet booster amount bonus it gets, I see a lot of teams using drakes for the damage output and FOF's I assume, at close range (HAMS and AC's) the cyclone does a lot of damage and it also has almost twice the drone bay (more ECM!!!). Without rigs the Drakes passive tank fails hard imo, more active tanking setup would be nice to see (sure it won't tank say 10 Thoraxs) but it will tank those crappy double logisitcs setups with 1 Raven doing the DPS. Also suprised we haven't seen more artillery with alphastrike being a good way to break those dual logistic setups. Tempests, Muninns etc would come into their element here I imagine it wouldn't be to difficult to 1 volley a stealth bomber with a bunch of Muninn's, Maybe target paint it first (theres an idea Vigils and Muninns :)).
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.02 05:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Norwood Franskly I'd love to see some of the heavier tanking Minmatar ships fielded, more Cyclones, Sleipnirs, Maelstroms etc, A properly tanked cyclones can be incredibly hard to kill thanks to the sweet booster amount bonus it gets, I see a lot of teams using drakes for the damage output and FOF's I assume, at close range (HAMS and AC's) the cyclone does a lot of damage and it also has almost twice the drone bay (more ECM!!!). Without rigs the Drakes passive tank fails hard imo, more active tanking setup would be nice to see (sure it won't tank say 10 Thoraxs) but it will tank those crappy double logisitcs setups with 1 Raven doing the DPS. Also suprised we haven't seen more artillery with alphastrike being a good way to break those dual logistic setups. Tempests, Muninns etc would come into their element here I imagine it wouldn't be to difficult to 1 volley a stealth bomber with a bunch of Muninn's, Maybe target paint it first (theres an idea Vigils and Muninns :)). nasty :) as in awesome
Battle Dog Vitai Lampada	Posted - 2008.03.02 09:09:00 - [7] i would also love to see a full matari fleet but i cannot think of a decent setup you could go with that would be effective in a tournament setting. I would love to see two or even three maelstroms fielded but how would you effectivly support them? with a full shield tank fitting they may suffer from low hp compared to other tanked BS which means that the logistics setups we have seen would be hard pressed against anything with significant DPS. Even a remote rep setup would weaken them to the point where they would die without killing much against a well tanked force. The other problem i see is how to lay down the damage they field, autos need to be in remotely close range to do signifcant damage which means a MWD is a must this and the Cap booster that is also a must means that they just do not sand up as well as the other BS damage dealer options available to teams. If you opted for artillery (not a wise option considering the bonuses of maelstroms) you are always agoing to run into tracking issues especially when tanking at the same time. I think the problem with the matari ships tournament wise is they are not quite good enough to use as full tanks or as full gank ships. That all being said and feel free to flame me for my wall of text or 'Nublet' opinion or whatever you wish to call it i would still like to see 3 typhoons as this could relistically give you a very flexible base line that could be setup to counter different setups with swicthing drones missles and the support ships they bring along. Anyway thats my two cents Regards BD
Ituralde The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.02 09:44:00 - [8] If you do remember that Artillery tempest did nearly ***** Nebula Rasa's guardian due to alphastrike in the first day. It could potentially be made into a viable setup against the right opponent. However, if you look at the minmatar ships they don't lend themselves to the tourney format as well as they do in Tranquility pvp - at least not as much as other races. Take a look at their battleships. The typhoon loses a good bit by being a split-weapons platform and given the same point cost as better higher-tier battleships isn't worth fielding. The tempest has a balanced slot layout and while this can offer flexibility, it does limit the ability to specialize well in tanking either shields or armor. Autocannons with Barrage can provide a good mid-range option on a tempest in lieu of the artillery-alphastrike tactic, but generally for that you can get more mileage out of ravens or Abaddons that do more DPS out to range while fielding a stronger tank. The Maelstrom sadly has a local rep bonus which does give it a nice solid tank but doesn't make it much of an ideal team player. You can still remote-transfer it, but it's not as efficient as remote-transferring an Abaddon that has an armor resist bonus. The hurricane is one of the ships we have seen used by multiple teams with varying degrees of success due to it's high DPS but sadly it's t2 grade parters have the same problem as the maelstrom with a nice tank but that being due to a local rep bonus. And the cyclone - well, there's simply no reason to fly one when you can have a better hurricane for the same points. The heavy assault cruisers and recons are an interesting point here. The vagabond is not very useful given as previously mentioned, speed doesn't tend to work too well in the tourney given the small field size and the lack of snakes and polycarbs. The munnin simply enough is inferior to other HACs of it's class and just needs a straight-up boost. The recons can be useful for the long-distance web, but if you are up against a team that won't be effected by it you are then wasting a ship. Day 2 we saw goonswarm bring a rapier - likely in anticipation of Nebula Rasa bringing two megathrons again - and due to a different kit being fielded by the Nebula Rasa team, it ended up being nothing but a waste of a ship. I'm a bit surprised we haven't seen so much of the scimitar this tourney but that is likely simply due to the lack of the basilisk's capacitor bonus. The rupture we have seen do pretty well this tourney among t1 cruiser kits. They can operate on a similar principle as the thorax with a nice solid buffer tank and good DPS. They don't have the drone capabilities of the thorax which does hurt their flexibility, but they are (if I remember correctly) a bit faster and are more range-flexible when doing damage. While a thorax should out-DPS a rupture, the rupture can start doing damage a few seconds earlier and still hit hard even if they drift a bit out of blaster range. Add in the final ability to vary damage types and you have the complete formula that has made the Rupture a solid T1 cruiser option. In the frigate class they don't have the same sort of electronic warfare options as the gallente and caldari, so most kits do tend to favor either the Maulus or Griffin for expendable frigates. However, we have seen a few teams take advantage of the target painters on vigils - Light Darkness 4-volleying a command ship with their help in alliance tourney 3 comes to mind - and other teams have used the trusty rifter and other faction frigates to rip up opposing frigate groups to deny other teams an electronic warfare advantage. So, Minmatar ships do certainly have their roles in tourney groups, but in this set tourney structure given the limitations imposed on the system are often less effective than similar class vessels of the other races. _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
Calmdown Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.02 11:07:00 - [9] It was me who said that, and it's correct. Bare in mind until before christmas I was 100% Minmatar specced and never flew anything else ever :) The problem with Minmatar is that a lot of the things they do well in real pvp are not useful or too hard to use in arena pvp. 1) Speed - speed is not that much of an issue in an arena where you can make your max range to the enemy 50km from the getgo. Whether you're in (for example) a Thorax doing 2km/s or a Rupture doing 2.2km/s, the difference isn't really relevant. 2) Tank - Minmatar passive tank as well as anyone in general, but their active tanks tend to be weak due to them having the lowest cap of all races. It also makes them more vulnerable to cap warfare. 3) Autocannons - At this range, autocannons are great, but for every ship that uses them there's a Gallente equivalent that could run blasters and do more. As I mentioned in a match, the AC vs Blaster argument always comes down to ACs having more range (and being capless, whilst nice, isn't so relevant a lot of the time if you build your ship to accomodate) which isn't so relevant in a 50km faceoff (and isn't so relevant anymore in real pvp even since T2 Blaster range ammo has existed) 4) Artillery - At the range the tournament is at, artillery does not track well enough to be used on large ships. The smaller Minmatar ships that could use it effectively, such as Muninns or Ruptures, simply cannot fit good enough setups in the rest of their slots when using artillery, due to powergrid usage. I'm not saying Minmatar CANT win or dont have advantages; all I've mentioned above is negatives. They can win and they do have positives. But for almost every Minmatar ship you can field, there's an alternative that does a similar job but better.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.02 11:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 02/03/2008 11:18:40 @Ituralde I don't know if I agree with you on some points there but the majority are fair enough i'd say. I absolutely love the cyclone, probably my favorite ship in the game (vast majority of my kills have been in a cyclone, some were even against tri :), with a t1 fit :) ). They have an excellent tank and their large drone bay outweighs the split damage penalty imo), Hurricane is better for smaller fights where you need to use midslots to fit a scrambler and a web, but in this tournement its moot. The cyclone has a better tank and comparable dps, since you have to sacrifice gyros for your tank in a hurricane...
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.02 11:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Calmdown 3) Autocannons - At this range, autocannons are great, but for every ship that uses them there's a Gallente equivalent that could run blasters and do more. As I mentioned in a match, the AC vs Blaster argument always comes down to ACs having more range (and being capless, whilst nice, isn't so relevant a lot of the time if you build your ship to accomodate) which isn't so relevant in a 50km faceoff (and isn't so relevant anymore in real pvp even since T2 Blaster range ammo has existed) I could be wrong here as my gunenry skills are not ultimate pwnage levels, but overheating autocannons does wonders to them and is something that needs to be taken into account I think, I'm also 100% Minmatar specced so can't say how blasters respond to overheating maybe a gallente pilot could kindly respond, I really love what they've done with heat, Makes the minmatar much for effective as you can overload the active tanks and push the weapons that little bit extra.
Hortoken Wolfbrother Amarr Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.03.02 12:54:00 - [12] Yes, you have nothing to fear from the vagabond team.
Ishamel 1 Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.03.02 13:19:00 - [13] I think an all matari team is a bit limited because of several factors apart from the whole "speed is our strength" issue. Lack of an ew ship for a start, meaning if u want to use ew u gotta use drones which reduces your already low dps. Mixed tanking types of matari ships makes logistics a bit harder, the command ship bonus's are less tanking orientated too. Matari speed is great for getting away from guns but unfirtunately the tourney can be a missile fest, and stealth bombers/cerbs especially make fast/stealthy teams weak. I would love to see a high alpha matari gang take on some stealth bombers and pop them all in 30 seconds tho :)
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.02 13:25:00 - [14] Another problem with Matari is the small clip size of arty; not only do they do extremely low base DPS, but they also have to reload frequently and reduce it even further. Add in the fact that an abaddon can almost match a 1400 'pest or mael for alpha, and you've got to begin to wonder exactly why anyone would bother with arty. Personally, except in those rare occasions when I get involved in fleet fights, I strictly use autocannons. Arty is just crap. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Sudalea Mott	Posted - 2008.03.02 21:43:00 - [15] Thanks for the answers. ... You all definitely know your ships, and it's clear I have some fun ones to look forward to it. ... I just shouldn't fly them in any tournaments.
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.02 22:31:00 - [16] Another thing I didn't see mentioned - Minmatar ships have the lowest sensor strength, I believe. Anyway, if someone thinks an all-Minmatar tourney fleet can hack it, they should post one.
Bacchanalian Stimulus The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.02 22:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Norwood Franskly The cyclone has a better tank and comparable dps, since you have to sacrifice gyros for your tank in a hurricane... Not if you field it with a speed setup and passive shield tank (two LSEs). ____________________ GM Sunshine > oops Neurotica > Hate to see a GM in your gang say 'oops'
Forty Three Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.03.03 18:25:00 - [18] another problem with minmatar tanks is that the minmatar 'tanky' ships (sleipnir, claymore, maelstrom) all have a shield boost bonus, which, in this context is irrelevant, because no one that goes for a tank setup tries to tank by himself, which renders the boost bonus obsolete. The caldari and amarr ships taht have tanking bonuses, on the other hand, have resist bonuses, which increase their effective HP and are thus useful when remote repping as well as self repping. ----------------------------------------------- UNITY!!!
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2008.03.03 19:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Calmdown 2) Tank - Minmatar passive tank as well as anyone in general, but their active tanks tend to be weak due to them having the lowest cap of all races. It also makes them more vulnerable to cap warfare. Complete utter bull** tbh. However, THIS is an issue: Originally by:** Forty Three another problem with minmatar tanks is that the minmatar 'tanky' ships (sleipnir, claymore, maelstrom) all have a shield boost bonus, which, in this context is irrelevant Gallante ofc suffer from the same problem, hence why we don't see many gal BC/commandships, and why there's really no point to field hyperions instead of throns. Minmatar ofc also have some other disadvantages, like low sensor strength. That said, it should be very possible to run for example teams with tempests. If you set them up with for example: 6x auto, cap transfer, shield transfer, 3 shieldhardeners, sensorbooster, MWD/AB, 3x damagemods, damagecontrol, 2x tracking, (perhaps ECCM thrown in as well) this should be working just fine in the dual-logistic combos we've seen with other races. Or, fitting a cap injector (and possibly some cap relays in your lows), you can make quite nice setups without dual logistics. The biggest factor making these "not very good" is rather in how much harder it is to keep shieldtanked small ships alive compared to the ships "filling out the points" that are seen in the abaddon/thron combos. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.05 09:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Tenaka Kahn on 05/03/2008 10:05:10 Edited by: Tenaka Kahn on 05/03/2008 10:00:55 Erm, I'm probably one of the biggest Minmatar fans in EVE but another issue we have that would make it rough for us in a tournament environment is our having the poorest sensor strength in the game. With the abundance of ECM via jamming ships and drones we would fair even more poorly. In real world pvp we shine in many facets but in a small box filled with constraints it's tougher. Granted we see new new setups every year that may change the status quo in the Matari favor in day now, I know I got my fingers crossed. Though thinking about the Minnie HACS... anyone toyed with the idea of Triple-Shield extended AB'n Vaga's? 3 Gyro's and 2 overdrives yield about 1.3km's a sec before hardwiring. No cap usage. Speed is comparable to a MWD 'Rax. Might be useful with a Huginn and a few Basilisks. Hail ammo is pretty wicked nasty at close range on a webbed target and tough to miss if the target is painted. Just a thought. If anyone figures out a way to make it work, give me a shout ;p Editing as I develop this idea.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.05 11:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Vherlena Mott Shouldn't racial fleets be designed to work really well together? Is there something wrong with Minmatar ships? I've often wondered if there shouldn't be some sort of extra gang bonus for fielding a fleet of just one race's ships. Maybe Flagships could give such a bonus if they're ever released. I'll admit that I'm a wee bit biased on this though. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.06 05:04:00 - [22] That would be neat Rodj. There would be a lot of Caldari and some Amarr fleet. I do have to admit seeing a racial fleet is something special. And doing that in this format give you the chance to not get scouted and racial ECMed to death, unless they just guess lucky and have enough.
Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.03.06 07:00:00 - [23] A racial bonus would only work for the tourney though. in real pvp it would be easily exploited - i.e. split your fleet into 4 seperate fleets.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.06 10:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Maggot A racial bonus would only work for the tourney though. in real pvp it would be easily exploited - i.e. split your fleet into 4 seperate fleets. But to do that would mean that you'd need to have duplicate gang modules to get the same effect. And if you limit the bonus to those fleets with Flagships (ie T2 tier 3 battleships) then you'd further cut down on the temptation to fly in multiple gangs. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.03.06 15:24:00 - [25] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 06/03/2008 15:29:12 Originally by: Maggot A racial bonus would only work for the tourney though. in real pvp it would be easily exploited - i.e. split your fleet into 4 seperate fleets. Could be easily remedied with the overview showing another formally formed fleet not under your direct control with the same marker as a hostile fleet. Still doable, there would just be a lot of intel reports on the direction and distance people were coming in from and orders to 'check your fire' every 10 seconds. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.