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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2008.03.03 23:31:00 -
[31]
Edited by: SoftRevolution on 03/03/2008 23:31:10
Originally by: Mtthias Clemi
Originally by: SoftRevolution "Forever War"
Just started reading this! Im fairly sure we did not go to war with aliens in 1996... but im willing to go with it.
I read that was intentional so the NCOs could be Vietnam vets. EVE RELATED CONTENT |

pwnedgato
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Posted - 2008.03.03 23:37:00 -
[32]
Originally by: SoftRevolution Edited by: SoftRevolution on 03/03/2008 23:31:10
Originally by: Mtthias Clemi
Originally by: SoftRevolution "Forever War"
Just started reading this! Im fairly sure we did not go to war with aliens in 1996... but im willing to go with it.
I read that was intentional so the NCOs could be Vietnam vets.
Ringo managed to get 'nam vets and WWII vets into the Aldenata series (Rejuv ftw)
Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
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MyOwnSling
Gallente RONA Corporation RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 23:38:00 -
[33]
The Halo series of books (yes, THE Halo) are well done in my opinion. They seem to fit the bill, especially the first one "Fall of Reach" and the third one "First Strike". Good ship-to-ship action as well as grunt work on the ground. ------------- Stop whining.
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
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Orgos Khenn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.04 00:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: MyOwnSling The Halo series of books (yes, THE Halo) are well done in my opinion. They seem to fit the bill, especially the first one "Fall of Reach" and the third one "First Strike". Good ship-to-ship action as well as grunt work on the ground.
These books deserve props. I had a read of them and I was initially afraid they'd end up...well, as book tie-ins for video games usually do. But the military aspect is fairly well done - and Fall Of Reach has good naval combat. ---- One day...one day General will be worth reading.
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Nebulae Mem
Orbital Minerals
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Posted - 2008.03.04 00:07:00 -
[35]
www.webscriptions.net is the home of Baen books, and their free ebook libary. You'll find a number of David Drake, David Weber, and John Ringo books available in a variety of formats. Usually the first one or two (or all) of a series has been posted for free to get you hooked and "encourage" you to buy the next in the series.
For Military Sci-fi, John Ringo's "Legacy of the Alldenata" Series is one of the best. Hordes of aliens, death, destruction, and fantastic characters. Ringo also has also done the excellent "Council Wars" series and a couple other corroborations.
Baen also has David Drake/Eric Flints "Belisarius Saga" which details an alternate time-line set in the 6th century AD. Just picture swords and shields next to steamships, rocket launchers, guns, and an intelligent crystalline entity to get an idea. Good stuff.
The "Starfire" series by David Weber and Steve White is decent. David Weber's "Dahak" series is also good reading. And I've heard good things about the Keith Laumer :Bolos" series as well.
Baen is one of the few book publishers that "get" ebooks. No restrictive DRM, advance copies of soon-to-be released books, and monthly "webscriptions" that'll get you 5 or so books each month for the price of buying 3 of them individually.
Considering how much books cost these days, I've already paid for the PDA I use to read them in savings from free library. Plus what they charge for in-print ebooks is $2-$4 less than the paperback version. I haven't seen that at any of the the publishers I buy from. (Hell, some of them try to charge the same cost as the hardcover!)
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.04 01:42:00 -
[36]
Edited by: nahtoh on 04/03/2008 01:47:53
Originally by: pwnedgato Edited by: pwnedgato on 03/03/2008 22:06:27 Where's the love for Ringo? The Legacy of the Aldenata series is awesome military sci-fi!
You beat me to it Also his into the looking glass books up to 3 novels now is pretty good
Baencd links
The above link os good for free Baen stuff, its all above board as well...the drop the baencd part fo the url and it gives you tasters for Baen books you sample chapters for upcomming books and stuff.
I repeat this is all above board and allowed by baen...I have a number of the CDs that came bound in the hardbacks and they all state they are free to be distrubted by anybody... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |

Keorythe
Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.03.04 07:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/03/2008 23:01:30
Originally by: Keorythe You want pew pew, hardcore military, oppressive regime fighting oppressive regime then stick with stuck coming out of the Black Library. Warhammer 40k has some insanely good and really bad stuff to choose from.
Which are which though?
The Gaunts Ghosts series by Stackpole is very well written. You'll develop ties to some of the main characters...and freak out when they are killed off. The two paragraphs side stories are sometimes captavating.
The Space Wolf series by William King is pretty good except for the very last which was written by another author.
The first couple of Horus Heresy books are pretty well done. The last few are...ok.
The Eisenhorn series is fun reading although the character is fairly light for an Inquisitor. Huge plot twist at the end.
Stay away from anything having to do with the Ciaphas Cain series unless you have a strong stomach for cheese and bad writing. Believe it or not but some people go for bad cheezy writing, especially those never having been in any sort of combat real or simulated.
Some people like the Soul Drinker books but they pretty much contradict themselves alot and are written with the style of "all opposing forces are bumbling idiots even other space marines".
That should keep you busy for a while.
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gordon861
Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.04 15:05:00 -
[38]
Timothy Zahn did a good series of sci-fi books - Conquerors Pride, Conquerors Heritage, Conquerors Legacy.
Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donĘt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
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Shalia Ripper
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: gordon861 Timothy Zahn did a good series of sci-fi books - Conquerors Pride, Conquerors Heritage, Conquerors Legacy.
I prefered his Cobra series. Cobra, Cobra Strike and Cobra Bargain.
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Basileus
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:14:00 -
[40]
Centauri Dawn
Dragon Sun
Twilight of the Mind
Read the books. Dust off the game. Play. Enjoy.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:30:00 -
[41]
Wing Commander is EVE.
Missile broadsides check.
Jump desynch check.
Acting on par with RP level of EVE check.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |

Zyck
Gallente KDS CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.03.05 02:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Keorythe
The Gaunts Ghosts series by Stackpole is very well written. You'll develop ties to some of the main characters...and freak out when they are killed off. The two paragraphs side stories are sometimes captavating.
The Space Wolf series by William King is pretty good except for the very last which was written by another author.
The first couple of Horus Heresy books are pretty well done. The last few are...ok.
The Eisenhorn series is fun reading although the character is fairly light for an Inquisitor. Huge plot twist at the end.
Stay away from anything having to do with the Ciaphas Cain series unless you have a strong stomach for cheese and bad writing. Believe it or not but some people go for bad cheezy writing, especially those never having been in any sort of combat real or simulated.
Some people like the Soul Drinker books but they pretty much contradict themselves alot and are written with the style of "all opposing forces are bumbling idiots even other space marines".
That should keep you busy for a while.
Gaunt's Ghosts was written by Dan Abnett The Great, saying otherwise is borderline heresy. 
Though I do have to support that entirely. Amazing series of books. I also have to recommend the Eisenhorn series as well, also by Abnett, as probably my favorite 40k series that I've read yet.
Space wolves I agree. I liked all the HH books, though the first three were better. I've heard the new one, Legion, is very good, but I haven't gotten to read it yet.
Also, the whole point of the Ciaphis Cain novels is to be like that. The entire series is basically just for making fun, they aren't really meant to be taken as serious Guard books like the GG series.
Soul Drinkers I'm reading now. Finished the first two, almost done with the third. Not the best I've read but they aren't bad either. Good enough anyway that I'm enjoying them a decent amount.
As for other sci fi, I have to recommend the Honor Harrington books (already mentioned), Forever War was also very good (mentioned already again...but supporting it), and the Sten series (yep...mentioned) is great if you like a decent plot and lots of action. Not the best you'll find, but entertaining nonetheless.
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.05 07:15:00 -
[43]
Chris Bunch has also done other stuff apart from the sten books...try the last legion series pretty good and shadow warrior as well.
========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |

vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.03.05 11:10:00 -
[44]
This series has multiple authors, not always good but still:
Man-Kzin Wars, set in Niven's Known Space universe, but not written by him. Niven himself said that although the Kzin Wars were crying out for some war stories, he isn't going to write them because he didn't know how the military works. Fair enough.
There are some really cool concepts in Niven's verse. Check out (wikipedia or google, perhaps?) the Kzinti Lesson and the Wunderland Treatymaker.
Also check out Pournelle's future history, especially the stuff about the Mercenary Legion. Also Hammer's Slammers - I forget the author.
---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Maltitol
Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.05 14:52:00 -
[45]
BAH! Books....
Arthur C. Clarke's Superiority (its a short story in a collection of a bunch), about 2 races at war vying for more and more power to the point where they can change the nature of who they are... until all goes bad *dun dun dunnnnnnn*. good read!
otherwise Stargate episodes FTW
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well boohoo
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Candice Bormardin
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Posted - 2008.03.06 12:02:00 -
[46]
David Drake is the author of Hammer's Slammers.
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Mimiru
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.07 04:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Zyck
Originally by: Keorythe
The Gaunts Ghosts series by Stackpole is very well written. You'll develop ties to some of the main characters...and freak out when they are killed off. The two paragraphs side stories are sometimes captavating.
The Space Wolf series by William King is pretty good except for the very last which was written by another author.
The first couple of Horus Heresy books are pretty well done. The last few are...ok.
The Eisenhorn series is fun reading although the character is fairly light for an Inquisitor. Huge plot twist at the end.
Stay away from anything having to do with the Ciaphas Cain series unless you have a strong stomach for cheese and bad writing. Believe it or not but some people go for bad cheezy writing, especially those never having been in any sort of combat real or simulated.
Some people like the Soul Drinker books but they pretty much contradict themselves alot and are written with the style of "all opposing forces are bumbling idiots even other space marines".
That should keep you busy for a while.
Gaunt's Ghosts was written by Dan Abnett The Great, saying otherwise is borderline heresy. 
Though I do have to support that entirely. Amazing series of books. I also have to recommend the Eisenhorn series as well, also by Abnett, as probably my favorite 40k series that I've read yet.
Space wolves I agree. I liked all the HH books, though the first three were better. I've heard the new one, Legion, is very good, but I haven't gotten to read it yet.
Also, the whole point of the Ciaphis Cain novels is to be like that. The entire series is basically just for making fun, they aren't really meant to be taken as serious Guard books like the GG series.
Soul Drinkers I'm reading now. Finished the first two, almost done with the third. Not the best I've read but they aren't bad either. Good enough anyway that I'm enjoying them a decent amount.
As for other sci fi, I have to recommend the Honor Harrington books (already mentioned), Forever War was also very good (mentioned already again...but supporting it), and the Sten series (yep...mentioned) is great if you like a decent plot and lots of action. Not the best you'll find, but entertaining nonetheless.
Dont forget the Ravenor series, also by Abnett. ---------
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Zyck
Gallente KDS CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.03.07 18:06:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Mimiru
Dont forget the Ravenor series, also by Abnett.
Ah yeah, how could I forget those. Also very good, though I'd read Eisenhorn first since Ravenor is a spin off.
The Grey Knights series by Ben counter is pretty good as well, though I don't think non-40k fans would like them. Very weird if you don't know what's going on or the background.
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iaikami
IAC Development and Deployment Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.07 18:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Digitalfox Armor a great read, Written my a man who thought Heinline should have used his power armor more.
Amazing book highly recommended.
IMO Ender's game is vastly overrated, while it is a good intro for younger readers it is far more Sci-Fi than Science Fiction (read Harlen Ellison's editorials for the difference) and doesnt really touch on 'military life' in any realistic fashion.
Glen Cook is a much better 'military writer' in both the Science Fiction and Fantasy Genres
The Dread Empire series has a much more realistic version of Interstellar combat (including 'jump gates') and how Missiles should really work ( /my Caldari alt wishes)
The Dragon Never Sleeps has a look at a 'Concord like' enforcement system and the rebellion against by powerful houses.
Passage at Arms is a good tale about 'cloaking' ships and the kinds of stress a crew (very much like a sub crew) endures.
on the Fantasy side the entire Black Company series is mandatory reading for anyone interested in a 'soldier's eye view' of Epic struggles
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flaming phantom
Minmatar Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.08 09:05:00 -
[50]
while i usually enjoy reading fantasy novels, i found chris bunch's series starting with "the last legion" much to my enjoyment. there is 4 books in the series with the 2nd called "firemask" then "storm force" and then "homefall". in short the 2 main characters are being transported from a planet to another planet way far away (srry its been a while since i read it so ive forgotten some of the exacts). anyways when they are flying there in a huge spaceship full of new recruits for the planet they r heading to it gets attacked and taken over. only 3 people get out and manage to make it to thier original destination. they then end up fighting against a planetwide rebellion. second book has the people fighting against an alien race called the musth. 3rd book is about the main people doing some spy work and going to a planet called lurax/kira and a good twist happens here involving the first ship they were in that got attacked. fourth book is about thier attempt at trying to get back to earth, which they have been out of cantact for for a long time and they dont know why.
anyway, short of writing an impregnable wall of text thats a quick summary
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.08 09:22:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Starship Troopers... great book
Yes yes yes. The book is specifically the point of view you are lookign for. But an emphasis on boot camp.
NOTHING LIKE THE MOVIE THOUGH. The movie ripped ideas from the book and committed a crime by using the same name.
Am I the only one who liked the movie?  Okay so the director completely missed the point portrayed in the book, but if you ignore that it's still a fairly entertaining movie. ...
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iaikami
IAC Development and Deployment Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.08 16:12:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Starship Troopers... great book
Yes yes yes. The book is specifically the point of view you are lookign for. But an emphasis on boot camp.
NOTHING LIKE THE MOVIE THOUGH. The movie ripped ideas from the book and committed a crime by using the same name.
Am I the only one who liked the movie?  Okay so the director completely missed the point portrayed in the book, but if you ignore that it's still a fairly entertaining movie.
Only for the shower scene, otherwise no and it certainly never should have had Heinlein's name on it
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Aaron Ravenwood
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:15:00 -
[53]
As SciFi Movies go ... Starship Troopers wasn't that bad.
It adopted a certain style to it that was interesting - "Do you want to know more?"
It also included much of the politics of the book.
All in all, it was a "glossy" version of the book instead of a "gritty" version which would have been more realistic.
But ... given the paucity of military SciFi out there ... I'll take what I can get.
The biggest flaw in the movie ... was the lack of Powered Armor. Powered Armor (On The Bounce!) was central to the book. I'm sure that the complexities of not only CGIing the Aliens but all the humans as well and the cost of doing the wire work to have the Cap Troopers jumping was the reason it was left out ... but it's too bad.
I'm really hard pressed to think of a SciFi movie that's Ground Combat wasn't absurd.
Compared to Star Wars, where the grunts all just run straight at each other weapons blazing ... Starship Troopers wasn't that bad.
I don't even like to think about the way they did ground combat in Star Trek ... yeah ... no protective gear ... running around looking like sticks of gum in a multi flavor pack ... those multi colored uniforms didn't seem so out of place on board ship but ... down on the ground? Can you say "I'm OVER HERE! Shoot me!!!"
Of course the same goes for the space combat. Same thing as Star Wars ... all those ships packed right in next to each other - having Collisions(!!!) in space ...
I guess it's like the combat in most movies about ancient times where ... instead of fighting in lines behind shield walls, the two sides just rush madly into each other screaming and yelling, hacking and slashing all about in a frenzy.
I guess all that stuff is supposed to make it all exciting ... or is a concession to the camera's view the way they always pack everyone together to get them in frame ... but it's still kind of lame.
So ... lameness abounds in movies ... *shrug* ... mostly I'm happy to get anything remotely credible.
Since they always foul up most aspects of things ... I'll settle for some cool special effects - and Star Ship troopers had them. Cool scenes of ships breaking up in space ... well done CGI for the bugs. Again ... I'll take what I can get from ... a pretty crappy selection to begin with.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: iaikami
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Starship Troopers... great book
Yes yes yes. The book is specifically the point of view you are lookign for. But an emphasis on boot camp.
NOTHING LIKE THE MOVIE THOUGH. The movie ripped ideas from the book and committed a crime by using the same name.
Am I the only one who liked the movie?  Okay so the director completely missed the point portrayed in the book, but if you ignore that it's still a fairly entertaining movie.
Only for the shower scene, otherwise no and it certainly never should have had Heinlein's name on it
Personally I rather enjoyed the way the director subverted the books' pro-military message.
"Join the infantry - it made me the man I am today"
- That guy with 1 arm and no legs
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |

Keorythe
Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.03.09 12:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: iaikami IMO Ender's game is vastly overrated, while it is a good intro for younger readers it is far more Sci-Fi than Science Fiction (read Harlen Ellison's editorials for the difference) and doesnt really touch on 'military life' in any realistic fashion.
Enders game and the later books are like Emo for sci-fi. The first time I read them I expected something decent and ended up with "wtf is this bull****?" Wah wah, no one understands me i r sad. Wah wah, i r smart and full of winz but lonely. Wah wah, game was real i r sad.
Armor was a great book. The ending was a bit on the weird side but it was overall a fun read.
One that is somewhat good but weird is Star Wars: Republic Commando. Decent action from a clone point of view.
Granted the Star Wars series are alot like that Warhammer 40k series in that there is some good and some bad in there. But in the case of Star Wars there's ALOT of bad. Anything having to do with Rogue squadron brings back memories of 1 bullet killing 20 indians in westerns. They also rely very very heavily on the enemy being completely incompetent to the point that they almost shoot themselves (sadly some decent stories both sci-fi and fantasy fail due to heavy reliance on that).
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Cyne Spurr
MacroIntel
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Posted - 2008.03.09 14:07:00 -
[56]
Books I quite enjoyed, in no particular order:
Starship troopers (loved the movie too, loved the animates series more). Line of Polity-Neil Asher, he writes some damned fine books. Anything by Peter.F.Hamilton. Anything by William Gibson (though pattern recog was not great).
Anything by Richard Morgan (altered carbon), his books are more your pulp sci-fi..nothing to complicated. The "Hope" series of books by David Feintuch.
Not sure if there are any books based on Space Above and beyond, that was a cool series which I reccomend to everyone.
I would tend to avoid most the warhammer 40K books as frankly their quality is to variable, I used to think that the Starwars franchise had the corner on bad sci-fi (the Lando carilsion books sucked..as did the last few books by Zahn), but the vast majority of the 40K books really do suck.
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Crise
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.03.09 15:01:00 -
[57]
Ender's game was on the required reading list for TBS (the basic school for marine officers) a few years back. Not sure how required the reading was as I was Navy.
So apparently the commandant thought it had some value. But hey what does a four star general know.
I'm an ex naval officer and Ender's game is my all time favorite sci-fi. I can tolerate very few military movies and books and I really enjoyed this one.
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Shalia Ripper
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.09 17:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: iaikami
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Starship Troopers... great book
Yes yes yes. The book is specifically the point of view you are lookign for. But an emphasis on boot camp.
NOTHING LIKE THE MOVIE THOUGH. The movie ripped ideas from the book and committed a crime by using the same name.
Am I the only one who liked the movie?  Okay so the director completely missed the point portrayed in the book, but if you ignore that it's still a fairly entertaining movie.
Only for the shower scene, otherwise no and it certainly never should have had Heinlein's name on it
Personally I rather enjoyed the way the director subverted the books' pro-military message.
"Join the infantry - it made me the man I am today"
- That guy with 1 arm and no legs
I don't like you anymore.
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Kzintee
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Posted - 2008.03.10 02:54:00 -
[59]
The problem I tend to have with "military sci-fi" genre is simply that it's hard to write a good book about it. The main char is someone in the middle of the events (otherwise the book would be boring) and ends up doing something heroic to save the day. Somewhere along the line the main hooks up with "significant other" who he/she has a romantic relationship with. The SO may or may not die before the end. This particularly is why (I always tend to find something else that catches my attention) I haven't picked up the Honor Harrington books...
"Old Man's War" to me was a rehash of "Starship Troopers". Seriously...couldn't Scalzi have at least changed up SOME events in the book? The war progresses the same way (including the "massacre" battle), ends the same way, etc.
As far as David Weber is concerned...I've picked up "Off Armageddon Reef" since reviews were fairly positive, and literally wanted to throw it out the window towards the end...talk about a load of generic "he/she/they were a party of super beings who could do no wrong and could slash the entire opposite army before breakfast" crap. Are his books worth reading further?
Books that I absolutely love? Anything by Hamilton. Night's Dawn trilogy, Pandora Star/Judas Unchained, Fallen Dragon (PH has in fact managed to create a complete universe within a single book!). Alastair Reynolds books. Larry Niven. I guess none of these authors really deal with "pew pew military scifi" since the genre seems to be ... shallow?
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder
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Posted - 2008.03.10 03:16:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kzintee The problem I tend to have with "military sci-fi" genre is simply that it's hard to write a good book about it. The main char is someone in the middle of the events (otherwise the book would be boring) and ends up doing something heroic to save the day. Somewhere along the line the main hooks up with "significant other" who he/she has a romantic relationship with. The SO may or may not die before the end. This particularly is why (I always tend to find something else that catches my attention) I haven't picked up the Honor Harrington books...
"Old Man's War" to me was a rehash of "Starship Troopers". Seriously...couldn't Scalzi have at least changed up SOME events in the book? The war progresses the same way (including the "massacre" battle), ends the same way, etc.
As far as David Weber is concerned...I've picked up "Off Armageddon Reef" since reviews were fairly positive, and literally wanted to throw it out the window towards the end...talk about a load of generic "he/she/they were a party of super beings who could do no wrong and could slash the entire opposite army before breakfast" crap. Are his books worth reading further?
Books that I absolutely love? Anything by Hamilton. Night's Dawn trilogy, Pandora Star/Judas Unchained, Fallen Dragon (PH has in fact managed to create a complete universe within a single book!). Alastair Reynolds books. Larry Niven. I guess none of these authors really deal with "pew pew military scifi" since the genre seems to be ... shallow?
Try redliners and freehold, but i do enjoy david webber books and you did not really get close to the actual story of Off Armageddon Reef TBH...and you don't seem to notice that the HH books the "good guys" are pretty heavly out numbered and do screw stuff up (granted they have better tech, but they are very heavly out numbered).
I doubt very much you will find books where the main charater loses all the time and does not pull some kind of rabbit out of the hat.
Of course if you wish to point me to a book or even better a series where this does not happen I owuld like it... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
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