| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
dodgy242
StateCorp
Insurgency
   |
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:27:00 -
[1]
Dear denizens... hello,
I want to talk to you about a certain sort of... person. The undercutter.
PLEASE can somebody tell me WHY you do this? And I don't mean the guy selling 1-5 items of something looking for a quick sale, I'm talking about the manufacturers / RP collectors / LP collectors who put up sales by the hundreds yet feel the need to drop prices over 15 - 30%.
What's up with that? Why do you do it?
An example :
A sale is up for 200 items costing 1 million/item.
In the last month 100 of those were sold for 1 million/item.
An undercutter comes in and prices 150 items at 750k/item.
I'm not saying I havent taken advantage of that as well  , but I just wonder where the logic is?
|
Tchell Dahhn
Amarr
Deny Reality
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:31:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: dodgy242
I'm not saying I havent taken advantage of that as well, but I just wonder where the logic is?
Did they make the sale? Yes, and you didn't. 'nuff said. (Oh, and if you don't see the logic in it, why did you do it in the first place?)
|
Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:32:00 -
[3]
generates quick cash, if its a significant discount they get snatched up, if nothing else but people who buy a batch at 750k, and resell em immediately at 1 mil. The undercutter gets a quick sale and cash in his pocket, the reseller just made a hefty profit. I'm sure its annoying to the full-time traders, but for "part-timers" who have a limited stock to unload and just want the money, its a valid and common tactic.
Kever Shigenaga > If you could become your ingame char, would you?
Jei'son Bladesmith > my char is a billionare, flys spaceships, and owns a prostitute, what the **** do you think |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:33:00 -
[4]
When I do it: because I want the items to sell quickly, but the highest buy order is priced too low for my liking.
If getting 150M within a few hours is more useful to me than 200M in a weeks time (with much flying 70 jumps back to empire to modify the price of an order by 0.1 ISk 3x a day) then I will "price to sell".
Simple as that, really. Enjoy your bargain.
Oh and when I sell stuff in 0.0 I always price under the lowest regional price. I have a certain amount of ISK available to invest in trading. When most of my stuff has sold, I'll go back and get another lot. Now I could price my stuff at gouge prices... and it would take weeks or even months to sell. Or I can take a quick 15-35% profit in a few days and go back and bring another lot for sale. 25% of amount 'x' 5-6 times a month is much better than 50% of amount 'x' once a month. Just ask those Walmart guys...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:48:00 -
[5]
Because people are idiots and don't realize that the people in general aren't going to buy more of a good just because it is cheaper.
|
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 21:07:00 -
[6]
The highest buy order isn't high enough for them and they want to make a quick sale and are counting on some enterprising trader buying their stock and relisting it higher.
|
Lorieen
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 21:09:00 -
[7]
I dont ever undercut by the % you talk about but I normally get tired of putting something up on market just see that 5 mins later someone has under cut me by 5 isk per unit. So sometimes when that happens alot I start lowering my prices as often as they try to undercut me just to drive the prices into the ground. Sure I dont make any profit per say but as long as I dont lose isk its sometimes fun to drive ppl out of the market I'm in.
There is more to this game then making isk.
|
Ieu Duin
Amarr
Star Sabre Industries
Dark Taboo
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 21:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ieu Duin on 03/03/2008 21:47:47
Edited by: Ieu Duin on 03/03/2008 21:47:00
Originally by: dodgy242
I want to talk to you about a certain sort of... person. The undercutter.
What's up with that? Why do you do it?
I'm not saying I havent taken advantage of that as well , but I just wonder where the logic is?
If you want to sell something in a competitive market you have to price your item to sell. The consumer sets the price not the seller. That is a basic law of economics. Sellers all getting together to artificially set the price of an item higher than the consumer desires to pay is called collusion and is illegal in most civilized countries, as an example. Though not in EvE, apparently.
Welcome to Capitalism.
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Because people are idiots and don't realize that the people in general aren't going to buy more of a good just because it is cheaper.
This is just about the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these message boards.
Um, yes they are.
Quote:
There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong.
-- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
|
Ronsonol
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 21:52:00 -
[9]
Unless CCp decides to start fixing prices and subsidizing certain industries what you have is a reasonable example of a capitalist economy. Undercutting your competition's prices is the name of the game. I am going to buy my needed goods for the lowest price i can find. As a seller I will sell my goods for the highest amount I can get while keeping in mind what my competition is selling their goods for. Its not unfair. Its not a dirty tactic. Its reality....mostly.
In the real world I might think twice about buying something priced significantly below some market average. I would wonder about service after the sale and the relative quality of the item. However, in Eve, baring a few clever and legal scamming tactics, I can assume that any ore or mineral or module is as good as any other. There is no way to put in useless filler material to add weight when selling ore for example. If I am selling something and I see that you are to, I will undercut your price. If I don't need to sell it quickly I might not. To price my goods based on some assumed sense of right and wrong is just plain stupid.
|
Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 21:54:00 -
[10]
I really think that transactiontax and the broker's fee should be doubled or tripled.
Add another advanced skill that brings them back to current rates for them who max them out.
|
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: dodgy242
I just wonder where the logic is?
First, mistake is expecting there to be a logical reason.
Second, mistake is assuming that undercutting is not logical.
15-30% price drop is often overkill. However, there is nothing wrong with overkill.
If such large price drops help you out, then don't complain.
If such large price drops hurt you, then don't whine about getting pwn'ed in PvP pricing.
|
LuBu
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:28:00 -
[12]
Really simple tactic actually.
It drives competition away for a while. Long time ago when I played the market, 4-5 people started selling the same items as myself. Got tired of adjusting isk daily, so cut it to no profit for 2 weeks. Bye bye competitors. They moved to other sales. Sold the same item for a crazy profit for a week before it was noticed the market was back up :)
If its one other person selling, find out who they are and try to talk with them. If its 4-5 sellers, move to another market or sink the current market till they leave if you really want it. |
Mighty Dread
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:46:00 -
[13]
On a side note I've noticed a number of isk farmers flooding the market (contracts) with certain items basically driving down prices and ruining profit margins for players who play EVE for the game as oppose to RL income generation. If you notice such I recommend taking down names, making sure they are indeed farmers, and passing the names along to those who like to blow up farmers in high sec.
|
Victor Forge
Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:55:00 -
[14]
Lack of knowledge most likely. Even if the sellers has been playing for years.
I miss a forum, specific for traders, how to make a profit with trading and such. Without a forum or a nice databas, newbie traders will have to do some basic trial and error. IE setting the prices lower and lower until whatever they are trying to sell is bought by someone. And patient buyers is using this to buy stuff really cheap.
Coming to think about it, forum for traders might have the drawback that traders are competing with each other to a much higher degree than miners for example. So the forum help might not be that great.
|
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Victor Forge
I miss a forum, specific for traders, how to make a profit with trading and such. Without a forum or a nice databas, newbie traders will have to do some basic trial and error. IE setting the prices lower and lower until whatever they are trying to sell is bought by someone. And patient buyers is using this to buy stuff really cheap.
Coming to think about it, forum for traders might have the drawback that traders are competing with each other to a much higher degree than miners for example. So the forum help might not be that great.
What a novel idea a forum for traders. 
|
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 23:10:00 -
[16]
sometimes i wish the real economy could be this fluid, say russia randomly deciding to dump a trillion barrels of oil on the world market at $50 a barrel.
|
Ghengis Tia
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 23:15:00 -
[17]
I've often thought it was stupid to undercut the price by 20% to 30% when the consumer most likely would have just paid the lowest price anyway, even 1 isk lower.
The other day I sold 10,000 ammo for 65 Isk ea, leaving me with 15K in stock. My gross for the 10K is 650,000. An undercutter put a bunch on the market for 42 Isk ea, his gross on 10K is 420,000. If he would have put them on sale for 64Isk ea, he could have made 220,000 more.
Will he drive me out of the market? No, as I can wait to sell the ammo when the price rises. Rather than share the market and get the most Isk from the consumer, he wants to take a hit to say "it's my market, how do you like them apples?/!!"
It is certainly his/her prerogative, but I know when I need ammo I don't care what it costs, I need it now.
The same thing happened in Amarr with Caldari Navy Missiles, they were selling for 3000ea (roughly) and you could buy them in Jita for 1400-1800ea. Nice profit since most people buy them in 5K-10K lots. The someone brought in a massive amount of missiles and started selling them for about 2100 ea. Party's over, consumer wins, cash cow is gutted.
I will just move on to other areas, if I decide to get back into the market seriously again. As it turned out, I made so much Isk doing it my way I don't have to do it anymore!
|
teh traderalt
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 23:56:00 -
[18]
It's called a free trade economy. Deal with it, or better yet, profit from it.
|
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.03.03 23:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ghengis Tia
I've often thought it was stupid to undercut the price by 20% to 30% when the consumer most likely would have just paid the lowest price anyway, even 1 isk lower.
The other day I sold 10,000 ammo for 65 Isk ea, leaving me with 15K in stock. My gross for the 10K is 650,000. An undercutter put a bunch on the market for 42 Isk ea, his gross on 10K is 420,000. If he would have put them on sale for 64Isk ea, he could have made 220,000 more.
Will he drive me out of the market? No, as I can wait to sell the ammo when the price rises. Rather than share the market and get the most Isk from the consumer, he wants to take a hit to say "it's my market, how do you like them apples?/!!"
It is certainly his/her prerogative, but I know when I need ammo I don't care what it costs, I need it now.
The same thing happened in Amarr with Caldari Navy Missiles, they were selling for 3000ea (roughly) and you could buy them in Jita for 1400-1800ea. Nice profit since most people buy them in 5K-10K lots. The someone brought in a massive amount of missiles and started selling them for about 2100 ea. Party's over, consumer wins, cash cow is gutted.
I will just move on to other areas, if I decide to get back into the market seriously again. As it turned out, I made so much Isk doing it my way I don't have to do it anymore!
You don't get it.
If I undercut by 1 isk, you will simply do the same, and then we get into a 0.01 isk war, which is extremely tedious.
Or I can decide to make 5% less profit(remember this is from a producer point of view) and sell my stuff with zero competition in one day.
Guess which one most people choose?
|
wammeh II
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 00:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ieu Duin
Sellers all getting together to artificially set the price of an item higher than the consumer desires to pay is called collusion and is illegal in most civilized countries, as an example.
No, that is definitely not how 99% of the market is. Now I'm not saying price cartels can't happen, but they require a form of monopoly - which is hard to aquire in eve today.
Eve market is just like a regular bid/ask stock market, except you recieve the actual item and not just a proof of ownership. There's no collusion in it by default.
But to answer the op, though as already stated: if someone is dumping prices it's because they're either trying to get out of the market - or - they're trying to get You out of the market.
And yes it's annoying. But so is 0.01 isk undercutting.
|
Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 01:11:00 -
[21]
Someone eventually will pay 15-20% more so they don't have to make the three jumps to bring the item back (personally I try to avoid Jita at all costs no matter the item). Of course, some people will, some people won't. Others realize that eve is a game where you can be everything and it's not that difficult to make your own ammo, drones or missiles in batches of 10K so... I'm wondering why there's still a market out there for the basic items, especially T1 items of course.
Anyway, Market PvP is even more cut throat that combat lag... I mean combat pvp and it's a damn sight easier to control the market in 0.0, or even low sec than it is to control it in empire.
Here's a thought though. Maybe people are under cutting you by 15-30% because they have better researched blueprints so their mineral costs are lower than yours, thus even at 15% less they're still making the same (or higher) profit.
Life is about memories the more the better.
http://lifeisexperience.freeforums.org (because it's a small corp) |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Worms Corp
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 01:22:00 -
[22]
Combat will always be "easier" then market wars, simply because in combat pvp its pretty straight forward..NBSI.
|
Ieu Duin
Amarr
Star Sabre Industries
Dark Taboo
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 14:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: wammeh II
No, that is definitely not how 99% of the market is.
You are correct. What I was referencing is the OP's implication that sellers should not undercut each other to keep the price up. That sort of collective pricing agreement is not healthy and not true to the free-market as we understand it in EvE. The simplistic view is that if you keep prices up then buyers will have no choice. That view is completely false. The buyers have to actually buy the product for one to make money on it. That will drive prices to the buyersÆ acceptable level.
It seems that some folks are not aware that a competitive seller will not only look at the prices locally when setting their price, but will make a determination of how far they believe a buyer is willing to travel to get a good deal. Sure the prices in the station where the sell orders may be 20-30% above the "undercutter" but, that seller may be looking at prices multiple jumps away.
Quote:
There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong.
-- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
|
Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 04/03/2008 15:11:08
Originally by: Ieu Duin
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Because people are idiots and don't realize that the people in general aren't going to buy more of a good just because it is cheaper.
This is just about the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these message boards.
Um, yes they are.
No, they aren't, general consumers buy 1 ship, one module at a time. Nobody is going to buy two hulks just because the price is 5 mill lower on the order than regional.
The main reason people buy more than one is because they *need* and *want* more than one, not because of the price.
Besides, Kenysian economics don't mean anything in a system with the "unique" incentive set we have here in EVE.
EDIT: not true for ammo, for example, and the absolute cheapest T1 mods.
EDIT2: .01 undercutting is the most efficient way to solve pricing disputes, any other method is wasteful and harmful to the market. If you can't keep up, don't try.
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:11:00 -
[25]
never assume your strategy is the same as everyone elses
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Shinori
GoonFleet
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:12:00 -
[26]
I do it to make you whine.
|
Tuberider
Caldari
Pothouse Cartel
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:14:00 -
[27]
It was me i admit it
Its a free market and i undercut to annoy market traders 
Now what ya going to do about it ?
И люди сделали rejoice и пировали на овечках и жабах и vale-sloths и плодоовощ-letucix мышах и orangutans и каши для завтрака
|
Indigo Johnson
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: dodgy242
Dear denizens... hello,
I want to talk to you about a certain sort of... person. The undercutter.
PLEASE can somebody tell me WHY you do this? And I don't mean the guy selling 1-5 items of something looking for a quick sale, I'm talking about the manufacturers / RP collectors / LP collectors who put up sales by the hundreds yet feel the need to drop prices over 15 - 30%.
What's up with that? Why do you do it?
An example :
A sale is up for 200 items costing 1 million/item.
In the last month 100 of those were sold for 1 million/item.
An undercutter comes in and prices 150 items at 750k/item.
I'm not saying I havent taken advantage of that as well , but I just wonder where the logic is?
There is no logic, you are playing a game with other people ranging from those who do little research as to how much something is worth to others that know the exact mineral breakdown of all components in the game give a % refinery.
In real life, selling for a loss means you usually end up leaving the market place. In Eve, it means you just get less iskes. Its part of the game, put up with it or move your stuff to another region vv
|
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 15:22:00 -
[29]
Two things;
1) The margin by which you are undercutting directly affects how fast an item sells. People are much faster to snap up a "good deal" then they are something at market price.
2) Very few people do the research, often, they hit show market details and price down from whatever the lowest sell order price is (and they usually round to the nearest 100k or 1mil). If you are quick (and have a network or alts at the trade hubs) you can buy many things below their true price level and sell them on an exiting buy order at a significant profit. Also, if liquidiuty is an issue, people will often sell well below market price.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
Ammoina
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 16:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gamesguy
You don't get it.
If I undercut by 1 isk, you will simply do the same, and then we get into a 0.01 isk war, which is extremely tedious.
Or I can decide to make 5% less profit(remember this is from a producer point of view) and sell my stuff with zero competition in one day.
Guess which one most people choose?
Cutting your profit by 5% generally isn't going to drive anyone out of the market. The rest of your post is valid enough. If it works.
It doesn't work every-time sadly. A nice enough example why undercutting doesn't work is a certain item in a certain system. Started at 1.5 mil. Jita price of around 1.1 mil. Nice bit of margin. Over 3 days it gets slashed by people from 1.5 mil to 1.0 mil. Jita price is around 1.0 mil as well at this point. And there are now multiple people .01 isking each other at the 1 mil price in the secondary hub. Other people (like me) picked up items, moved them to a different system and liquidated stock at 1.35. So what was the point for the producers? None. All they did is destroy their own profits and still end up in .1 isking wars. Granted there are far fewer people in the market now, but not enough to avoid the .1 isk wars. And now its mandatory to be .1 since they're getting damn close to the build cost.
Mind you, this is exactly what should happen according economic theory. So I'm not surprised to see it. I just hate to see it. PS, volume for the item has not gone up, despite the massive drop in prices.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |