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Compact AF role suggestions megathread

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Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 04/03/2008 20:17:22 Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 04/03/2008 20:16:37 Use this thread to post roles you think AFs could/should fill. Along with each role, post one (1) role bonus that you think AFs should receive in order to fill it. Do not post anything else here, and keep each suggestion very short. This is about raw ideas, not careful justification and balance discussion. Example: Close-range tackler: web resistance Pack hunter: can follow a target into warp just like a fighter Mobile squad command: can fit 1 warfare link I'll add as many ideas as possible to this post, so they're not buried further down. I repeat, please don't add comments. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:15:00 - [2] "web immunity" is bad choice of words. "web resistence" sounds much more reasonable. There should never be serious consideration of having 100% web immunity. Web resistence should be somewhere around 50%, give or take 10%
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:40:00 - [3] Could just go simple and reduce the mass and give a 4th bonus to tanking or offense or whatever.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.04 21:07:00 - [4] Yah Mass and 4th bonus won't get changed because people need some sort of fluff role bonus instead. We'll use EFT numbers on how much a wolf can alpha, super tanks Hawks that solo pawnzors BC's. We'll be a web resistant slow ship,with medium guns with no tracking, with some sort of propulsion bonus it doesn't need. A few simple tests for any developers to do. Fly a rifter thru gatecamp, now fly a Jag, after this fly a Ruppy thru. Write down what yah think. Now take a rifter and tackle a drone ship. After Drones are deployed start killing them. Now do it with a Jag. Write down what you think. Now go to Rens the minny tradehub for the minnytards, buy three T1 Ruppys or one T2 AF. If anything the ships role should be the T2 version of its T1 Hull just a fun expensive frig killer. If there holding back on these changes because of PvE crap, we have big problems.
Zenobite Soliders Of Eve The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:00:00 - [5] AB bonus Big reduction in mass More Dmg Basically I think they should live up to there name, hard hitting, tough little ships that can take a lot of punshishment over a short time, but with limited endurance (small cargo bays, limted cap, whatever) Would be cool if they could use the black-ops jumpbrige and be used as raiders, just a thought I don't how it would work out in pratice
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.04 23:27:00 - [6] 20% damage increase to assigned fighters per lvl of AF skill --
Avalira Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:23:00 - [7] - Anti frigate support - Frigate logistics: increase survival rate of frigates with logistics) - Squad Command: like fleet command but for frigates) - Anti-Ewar: Boost friendly ships so they are less vulnerable to ewar. - High precision weaponry: allows for sub-system targeting of capital ships - Bonus to small ships and drones: makes for an excellent support ship in removing frigs and drones, as long as it can survive longer --- Selling Rokh BPO ME 45
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.05 09:10:00 - [8] 20% reduction in cost per level. Anything else is just missing the point. AFs are frigates, the job of frigates is fast tackling. And guess what, interceptors do that job massively better in every way. If you try to put frigates of any kind in the damage/tank role, you are competing directly with T1 cruisers. In a straight-up fight, the frigate loses every time, so the only thing that makes the frigate useful is the lower cost. Now move to the T2 level, and you still lose the direct fight, but now your frigate costs at least as much as the cruiser. Result: no reason to fly the AF. The only other thing that would work is a complete redesign to abandon the role of "bigger, meaner frigate". Whether that's giving them gang mods, special anti-sub-system weapons, or whatever, the role has to be something unique.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.05 10:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Good stuff but off-topic I agree with you entirely, so let's hear more ideas! Have you got any new suggestions? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Alex Medvedov Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.05 12:05:00 - [10] AB + Mass reduction + firepower bonuses In my opinion only one bonus that wouldnt destroy them. People dont make them like super extra fun single pourpose ship. Iam flying them every day and want to stay with them even after boost patch:)
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.03.05 17:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Alex Medvedov AB + Mass reduction + firepower bonuses In my opinion only one bonus that wouldnt destroy them. People dont make them like super extra fun single pourpose ship. Iam flying them every day and want to stay with them even after boost patch:) QFT! More simple is the boost, better is the versatility. Some said "frigates=tacklers". I say NO! Bombers are not, covert ops are not, and we already have the inties for powerful tacklers and two EAS with high tackling abilities (keres with scramblers and the minmatar one with webs). It's enough. We need fun ships to fly in frigates, it means not being slower than larger ships as they are now, it means an average speed, proper tank and enough firepower to be a threat to cruisers while solo, a threat to badly prepared battlecruisers alone, and with two be a threat to battlecruisers. With a swarm of those, you should take advantage over battleships that are just not designed to shoot frigates (not enough neuts, not enough drones, not enough webs when the odds get bad), just as currently battleships can't get rid easyly of frigates flying properly. Currently, we often get laught at when flying AFs in PvP, this must stop. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.05 17:45:00 - [12] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/03/2008 17:47:08 I agree with Eleana. I'm not a huge supporter of roles. EVE really shouldn't develop into a class based system. It doesn't go along with the sandbox idea. Therefore, simple boost, simple fix: Role Assault Ship (or small HAC) Changes: - Add a (real) 4th bonus - Reduce mass (similar to T1 cruiser - HAC relation) There. More than enough reason to fly them again. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.03.05 17:51:00 - [13] Also, fixing the slot-gimped or fitting-gimped AF will help. We want to fit the cool small size weaponry, and not have just 1 med slot, and have the ressources to tank. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Alex Medvedov Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.05 18:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 05/03/2008 18:02:45 Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 05/03/2008 18:02:25 Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Some said "frigates=tacklers". I say NO! Bombers are not, covert ops are not, and we already have the inties for powerful tacklers and two EAS with high tackling abilities (keres with scramblers and the minmatar one with webs). It's enough.... Currently, we often get laught at when flying AFs in PvP, this must stop. Absolutely agree... Iam really glad someone is sharing my point of view about AFs or at least I think so:)) Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Also, fixing the slot-gimped or fitting-gimped AF will help. We want to fit the cool small size weaponry, and not have just 1 med slot, and have the ressources to tank. Well you know what iam thinking about more slots...I would like to have AFs as simple as they are (in therms of usuable slot) only AF which lacks some slots is Retribution for me.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.05 18:47:00 - [15] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/03/2008 18:46:59 Uhm, I kinda like the Retributon as it is right now. Changing it to 5/2/4 would give it the same slot layout as the Enyo. And 2 med slots still isn't a whole lot. I prefer diversity and hate making everything the same. That being said, one possible solution could be double damage bonus (dmg + rof, in the course of giving all AFs a 4th bonus) and shift a high to a med slot, making it 4 high, 2 medium and 5 low slots. Different than Enyo and kind of a mini Zealot. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.03.05 19:04:00 - [16] One AF is a nuisance. A pack of them are a nightmare. Add a bonus to all AFs so that their natural bonuses are boosted by 5% for each AF that is in fleet (up to 10). eg. One Jaguar: 10% Small Projectile Turret optimal range per level 5% projectile damage per level Two Jaguars: 10.5% Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level 5.25% projectile damage per level Ten Jaguars: 15% Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level 7.5% projectile damage per level Mix and Match! ------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.05 22:48:00 - [17] Hawk/Ishkur/Wolf/Retribution: Designated role: gank frigate against cruiser sized targets. Role bonus: bonus to Heavy Assault Launchers powergrid (Hawk) /drone bandwidth (Ishkur)/ Medium Autocannon powergrid (Wolf)/ Medium Pulse Lasers (Retribution) Harpy/Enyo/Jaguar/Vengeance: Designated role: Advanced weapon system specialist against frigate sized targets. Skill bonus: 20% reduction to T2 ammunition penalties per level of assault ships skill. -----------
grgjegb gergerg	Posted - 2008.03.06 01:13:00 - [18] Edited by: grgjegb gergerg on 06/03/2008 01:13:22 Heavy assault Hawk and stuff... not a bad idea actually. I bought a Hawk, just because I was expecting to have to run some lvl 1 missions and wanted to do it in a lazy fashion. Having an actual role would be nice. ...Of course, I found a lvl 1 mission gate that wouldn't let t2 frigates in. :P
Redd Lenses Gallente Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.06 08:42:00 - [19] I really like the following in warp idea.
Alex Medvedov Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.06 12:25:00 - [20] Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 06/03/2008 12:27:50 Originally by: Alz Shado Edited by: Alz Shado on 05/03/2008 19:07:37 One AF is a nuisance. A pack of them are a nightmare. Add a bonus to all AFs so that their natural bonuses are boosted by 5% for each AF that is in fleet (up to 10). eg. One Jaguar: 10% Small Projectile Turret optimal range per level 5% projectile damage per level Two Jaguars: 10.5% Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range per level 5.25% projectile damage per level Intersting idea but solves nothing - AFs are dangerous in packs as they are know and with for example better optimal range you would have to think like: "now we lost one so i have to get closer..and so on" and i cant see how to use complete potential of tnis in the heat of battle. Originally by: Scatim Helicon Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 06/03/2008 08:31:50 Hawk/Ishkur/Wolf/Retribution: Designated role: gank frigate against cruiser sized targets. Role bonus: xx% reduction in powergrid requirements for Heavy Assault Launchers (Hawk) / bandwidth requirements for medium drones (Ishkur)/ xx% reduction in powergrid requirements for Medium Autocannons (Wolf)/ xx% reduction in powergrid requirements for Medium Pulse Lasers (Retribution) Harpy/Enyo/Jaguar/Vengeance: Designated role: Advanced weapon system specialist against frigate sized targets. Skill bonus: 20% reduction to T2 ammunition penalties per level of assault ships skill. Not a good idea... benefits for the first and the second AF class are not comparable. Your "new" Wolf or Iskhur would shratter Jaguar or Enyo with ease. So what would be the pourpose of them?
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.03.06 14:31:00 - [21] Mounting medium weapons on a frigates (unless being missiles or drones with don't care your ship's speed for tracking) forces you to slowdown in order to hit, removes your ability to hit frigates properly. Such AF will be killed by T1 frigates alone... Also, having weapons one size larger is not great at all in terms of damage improvement. Then, there's the cap use, it would need AFs with a cruiser capacitor to shoot (or another crap bonus). Finally, I'm much more for another weapon bonus instead of such crippling bonus (it's mainly giving a 4th bonus to AF). The HAS have several bonuses on their main weapons and that's why we like them, they hit hard even with their low number of weapons and only medium weapons (not large). The search for useless bonuses in HAS returned this : nothing! I think that is why HAS are popular : huge bonuses on things not that hard to use, all ship's stats are superior to the T1 version. AF should be even more popular for huge bonuses on things even easier to use! Oh wait, they forgot part of the bonuses on the AFs... And penalized them for all the stats we like in frigates! An idea that just came up while I was removing the useless junk of this post : The covert assault ship: Fit a cloaking on an AF (give it a slot for it, negate penalties), give it a bonus to locking on decloaking : You have a new form of surprise attack ship, potentially a very close range one to catch unprepared ships, opposed to the stealth bombers and their extensive cruise missile range. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.03.06 17:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Alex Medvedov Intersting idea but solves nothing - AFs are dangerous in packs as they are know and with for example better optimal range you would have to think like: "now we lost one so i have to get closer..and so on" and i cant see how to use complete potential of tnis in the heat of battle. Packs of AFs are dangerous now, but they're usually flown in smaller numbers as support for bigger vehicles. Giving them a gang bonus makes it more advantageous to have an extra AF or two than a ill-fit T1 Cruiser or Destroyer. In the heat of battle, the idea would be to use tactics that keep the AFs alive so that their bonus remains high, possibly to draw primary from an enemy before sending in the "Heavy" hitters. Because of their mobility and DPS, they are ideal for quick strikes, bait-and-switch, and hit-and-run maneuvers. Using them as you describe would require micromanagement that might not be suited for EvE, because you'd need to have situational awareness that lag and other factors already make difficult. ------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.06 20:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Redd Lenses I really like the following in warp idea. It would just lead to assault frigs dying in massive numbers when their opponent warped out to friendly deathstars or bubble camps and the oblivious AF followed them to their doom. -----------
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.06 23:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Mounting medium weapons on a frigates (unless being missiles or drones with don't care your ship's speed for tracking) forces you to slowdown in order to hit, removes your ability to hit frigates properly. Such AF will be killed by T1 frigates alone... Good. Even T1 frigs should be able to kill a hostile ship which isn't fitted to take them on, and I specifically stated that the 'overgunned' AF would be optimised for taking on larger ships, so the fact it would be an unsuitable choice against other frig classes and may need anti-frig support in a gang is a good thing. The idea is to give the AF a designated niche with weaknesses as well as strengths, not turn it into an overpowered killdozer against all comers. Quote: Also, having weapons one size larger is not great at all in terms of damage improvement. Then, there's the cap use, it would need AFs with a cruiser capacitor to shoot (or another crap bonus). Relative damage of overgunned versus regular AFs depends on the other bonuses, of course. Cap use would only be an issue for the Retribution as drones/missiles/autocannons don't use cap, but you're right that it would need to be dealt with. -----------
Alex Medvedov Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.07 10:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Good. Even T1 frigs should be able to kill a hostile ship which isn't fitted to take them on, and I specifically stated that the 'overgunned' AF would be optimised for taking on larger ships, so the fact it would be an unsuitable choice against other frig classes and may need anti-frig support in a gang is a good thing. The idea is to give the AF a designated niche with weaknesses as well as strengths, not turn it into an overpowered killdozer against all comers. Guys have you aver fought aginst Cruiser with 220mm ACs in your AF? These gun would shretter you unless you are really really close like up to 1km. Which would be very hard to achieve. You are not going to shoot down Wolf with medium guns in T1 frig:) Even in Jaguar it would be difficult...
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.03.07 13:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/03/2008 17:47:08 I agree with Eleana. I'm not a huge supporter of roles. EVE really shouldn't develop into a class based system. It doesn't go along with the sandbox idea. Therefore, simple boost, simple fix: Role Assault Ship (or small HAC) Changes: - Add a (real) 4th bonus - Reduce mass (similar to T1 cruiser - HAC relation) There. More than enough reason to fly them again. It's a frigate, why do you expect it to kill cruisers and BCs? If anything the H.A.S. (no such animal as a HAC, go look it up) class should be scaled back a bit.
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.07 14:06:00 - [27] I actually kind of like the 'follow ships in warp' module. Create a new module, the 'Hyperspace Circuit Plotter' or something similarly technobabble-y. Mid-slot. 50ish CPU for the t1 variant, adjusted up/down for the named/t2 versions. Or rather, 10k CPU with -97.5% to -100% reduction in Hyperspace Circuit Spotter CPU use per level bonus on AFes so you end up with 50ish CPU needed with AF IV. With those numbers you'd need to either increase AF base CPU or tighten up the % reduction however. Module has 10-sec activation and uses a noticeable chunk of cap, so it couldn't be kept auto-running, you'd need to anticipate when the target was warping out. Range starting at 25kms for the t1 version, with a 20% activation range bonus per level of AF. If you've got it activated on a target as it warps, you have a chance(based on signature radius of the target) to follow it into warp. You come out of warp at a position from 0k-30k(maybe have the AF ship bonus reduce this instead?) of where the ship does. Make it a scriptable module, with one script for each of the variables(follow range, follow accuracy, follow chance). Have it interact with scramblers/disrupters the way MWD/AB do, you can't have both activated at the same time. That way you've got to choose between stopping a target from warping away and following it through warp. I think that would give a decent balance between being able to chase ships down and making it impossible for any ship to escape a gang with an AF in it.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.07 14:59:00 - [28] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 07/03/2008 15:01:37 I wouldn't bother making it chance-based, but it'd probably be a good idea to restrict this module/role bonus to AFs alone. They don't have many med slots, so a high slot module would be better; most AFs have a spare high slot. It'd be truly evil if covert ops/recon ships were able to do this - you wouldn't know whether or not you'd been followed. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.07 16:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It's a frigate, why do you expect it to kill cruisers and BCs? If anything the H.A.S. (no such animal as a HAC, go look it up) class should be scaled back a bit. So I reckon you play the ignorant smartass card? Well, do as you please. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.08 10:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 06/03/2008 10:22:11 Use this thread to post roles you think AFs could/should fill. Along with each role, post one (1) role bonus that you think AFs should receive in order to fill it. Do not post anything else here, and keep each suggestion very short. This is about raw ideas, not careful justification and balance discussion. Ideas so far: Close-range tackler: web resistance Pack hunter: can follow a target into warp just like a fighter Mobile squad command: can fit 1 warfare link AB + Mass reduction + firepower bonuses Bonus to damage from assigned fighters Frigate logistics: increase survival rate of frigates with logistics Anti-Ewar: Boost friendly ships so they are less vulnerable to ewar High precision weaponry: allows for sub-system targeting of capital ships Bonus vs. small ships and drones- improved turret sig res/missile exp. rad? Specialist: reduced T2 ammo drawbacks Heavy assault: able to fit cruiser class weapons Bonuses based on # of AFs in a gang I'll add as many ideas as possible to this post, so they're not buried further down. I repeat, please don't add comments. High precision weaponry might be a good idea combined with anti-ewar. The weapons of AFs could permanently damage EW modules each time they do damage to the ship. So they do damage to webbers, TPs, neuts/nos, TDs, ECM and Damps. Add some ew resistance to the AFs and we got a nice new little role: Anti-EW Assault Frig. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare

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