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Marshiro
MOE Corp
11
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Posted - 2012.02.20 08:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the Hybrids have been buffed and the number of viable ships using it have vastly increased.
So lets compare with what you get for Energy Weapon and Hybrid skills:
Excluding frigs, they are easy to train and hybrids win here as well:
With hybrids, you get: Throax,Deimos,Vigilant,Proteus,Brutix,Talos,Naga,Mega,Rokh,Vindi
Most of them have valid fittings with rails or blasters. Thats, 10 valid pvp ships using hybrids. Most of those ships work in small gangs while the Rokh have potential to match the Abaddon in fleet use in the long run. (as people train into it)
If you train lasers, you get following: Zealot,Legion,Harb,Oracle,Geddon,Baddon,Nightmare,Bhaal
That is only 8 valid pvp ships, and their role overlaps more and many must be used with support in specific fleet concepts, and there is almost no good shield option. The biggest advantage is that they hit resist holes and thats about it.
So are we gonna see hybrids overtake energy weapons usage in the long run? |
Karak Bol
Cable Innovations Cloud 7 Nebulosa
16
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Posted - 2012.02.20 09:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thats a rather one sided comparison. You have to keep in mind, that lasers are superior in applications that are also part of PvP. Shooting structures for examples. So I assume you are talking about solo PvP? Please make your question a bit more precise. |
Alara IonStorm
1639
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Posted - 2012.02.20 09:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
In your opinion a weapon used by 2 Races one of which every combat ship has as a main weapon and the other more then half use it and their are only 2 more Ships. Most people would call that a rather poor showing considering their are a lot more Hybrid Ships in the Game then Laser Ships. Especially with 3 Drone Boats that don't have Laser bonuses unlike Gal Ships and 4 Missile Boats in the Amarr Lineup.
The good news is that the Maller, Omen and Prophecy are going under the microscope and the Harbinger is most likely being brought in line with the other Tier 2's. The Proph, Omen and Puni may just be getting that Laser Dmg Bonus so they can stop being high tank projectile boats.
Ether way with T1 Frigates / Cruisers and Tier 1 Battlecruisers on the Rebalance block as laid out in the CSM Minutes and Dev Posts as well as CCP saying they are looking into Armor vs Shield Balance Amarr should be plenty fine.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2886
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Posted - 2012.02.20 10:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Where the **** on your 'complete, definitive and totally objective' list are the Maller, the Prophecy, the Dominix, etc etc? (Don't care if the ones I quoted don't get a laser damage bonus - there is still a laser bonus on there)
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
139
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Posted - 2012.02.20 11:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Even with the Null buff, blasters lack the versatility of Pulse with Scorch.
But Rails vs Beams: they are probably about the same.
Scorch is awesome because it basically triples range. Sure, its only a 50% range bonus from "standard", but we should really be comparing the guns using the T1 high damage ammo.
Going from MultiFrequency to Scorch means getting 3x the optimal, for over 2x the total range.
Going from PP/EMP/Fusion to barrage means getting 1.5x the falloff, for a little over 1.5x the total range
With antimatter, about 2/3 of your range comes from falloff, going from AM to Null gives you 2.8x the optimal and 1.5x the falloff, for about 1.8x the range.
Scorch still wins:
Actual stats: Medium Pulse Laser II Multi/Scorch Optimal: 3000/9000 Falloff: 2000/2000 Optimal+Falloff: 5000/11,000 Ratio: 2.2
200mm Autocannon II PP/Barrage Optimal: 600/1200 Falloff: 4800/7200 Optimal+Falloff: 5400/8400 Ratio: 1.56
Light Neutron Blaster II AM/Null Optimal: 900/2520 Falloff: 2500/3500 Optimal+Falloff: 3400/6020 Ratio: 1.77x
Of course, not to say that autocannons need a buff, bc the T1 are already OP'd in my opinion.
When you look at the base stats of the autocannon turrets, it doesn't seem that bad. The problem is the ammo: when you load the high damage ammo into the other turrets, you get a nearly 50% effective range penalty. When you load high damage ammo into autocannons, you get a LOL effective range penalty of 10% When you load the "standard" 0% range modifier ammo in the other guns, you get no "perks", while Lulz, the autos get a 20% tracking boost (and the base stats already have the best tracking)
Anyway... my point is that you still don't get the same range extension as you do with lasers, and blasters already were limited by range. (although lasers always could load radio/microwave to get the same range, but this means you are doing about half the DPS- so its double your range, or double your DPS, depending on how you look at it). So I wouldn't say that Hybrid have displaced lasers, but the balance is much better now. I also don't thing Scorch is too OP'd as people whine about, rather Null was previously under powered (its better now, 1.8x vs 2.2 is close enough for me, considering range was never their strong suit), and as always, autos are between fine and OPd. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
137
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Posted - 2012.02.20 11:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Keep training lasers, they're awesomesauce. |
Belthazor4011
Battle BV
11
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Posted - 2012.02.20 11:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well there are a lot more factors in this choice. First of all I dont think your list of ships on either side of the line is correct/complete.
Given that there are other things to consider. Hybrids are a very in your face brawler choice, PVP wise anyways. This is a fighting style you must appreciate. Lasers offer much more range even with the 'short range' pulse variation while losing relatively little DPS is doing so.
Lazers do a set damage type, so they'll do better against shield tanked ships by default so the part of space you are in and what you end up fighting most of the time also plays a role in your decision.
Personally I've had a laser/amarr account and I didnt like it very much. Cool ships and all but I mostly fight armor tankers and the fact they are not made to shoot those really showed.
Also are you a trained armor tanker and do you prefer to be one? Amarr (laser) cant shield tank ships like Gallente/Caldari (Hybrid) can.
Anyways the choice depends on where you fly, what you are already trained to tank and how you like to fly. |
Darthewok
Perkone Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.02.20 12:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Han Solo trained blasters, but they fired lasers. Watch PVP videos, post links to your PVP videos on the EVEwiki! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Player_videos Darthewok - Serious Biznits II Part B |
Wacktopia
Noir.
189
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Posted - 2012.02.20 12:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
[Dominix, YouForgotSomething] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Bouncer II x5 Garde II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5
Vote Alekseyev Karrde for CSM7. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67574 Get War Decs, Sov, Low Sec that works.-á |
Bent Barrel
28
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Posted - 2012.02.20 12:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
I miss Dominix, Moa, Ferox on your list .... |
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St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
469
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Posted - 2012.02.21 06:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bent Barrel wrote:I miss Dominix, Moa, Ferox on your list .... Cause Feroxes are for ACs :D |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
41
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Posted - 2012.02.21 14:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Considering there is always "rebalancing" since people will always whine when their favorite race/ships aren't as OP as they want them to be, just train whatever you want to train. If you base your training on the current "viable PvP ships" you won't have the skills for the best pvp ships by the time you get done training cus another "rebalancing" will nerf your stuff or buff something else.
I fly a lot of frigs, so I would recommend hybrids, but that doesn't mean there aren't good lazor frigs too. Sig tanking is the new black |
Relaed
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 14:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'd agree with the previous response; in that lasers are more useful for many applications. Hybrids have the down side of you requiring a lot of ammo, and eventually running out. More ammo in your bay is less space for loot, running out of ammo means you're dead. Hybrid guns are also not in favor of most pvp ships. It's all Artillery / Autocannons, Beams / Pulse these days, and Drake missiles. People may have a personal preference for Gallente ships and hybrid weapons, but they neither practical nor desirable in fleet pvp warfare. You should be training Autocannon/Artillery, Missiles, and Laser Beams. Leave the Hybrids to the neofants.
Regards, |
Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
71
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Posted - 2012.02.21 15:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ashimmu? |
Vladimir Smugdog
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Autos, Pulse Lasers, Artillery, Heavy Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles, Blasters, Rockets, Railguns, Torps, Beam Lasers, Standard Missiles, Cruise Missiles
That's the order i'd train weapon systems in, given the chance to do it all over. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.02.21 16:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:
The good news is that the Maller, Omen and Prophecy are going under the microscope and the Harbinger is most likely being brought in line with the other Tier 2's. The Proph, Omen and Puni may just be getting that Laser Dmg Bonus so they can stop being high tank projectile boats.
Ether way with T1 Frigates / Cruisers and Tier 1 Battlecruisers on the Rebalance block as laid out in the CSM Minutes and Dev Posts as well as CCP saying they are looking into Armor vs Shield Balance Amarr should be plenty fine.
Linky please?
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rogue lawyer
New Edens United Nation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.11 22:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would not say that Lasors are Superior to Hybrids, personally i think that Hybrids are now balanced. All the weapons in eve has an area they cover. Hybrids are supposed to be long range weapons with medium damage, Blasters are supposed to be short ranged weapons with extreme high damage.
It wont really make sense to buff hybrids any more. Increase range of blasters? well that will make the game unbalanced because they will creep into an area which projectiles seat. Make Rails have more damage they will also encroach into another turrets area lasers, a weapon type with medium damage and pretty neat damage ( scorch ). playing around with ammo wont really change that much.
as a Hybrid user i very much welcome the change, even more welcome is the incremental changes which are made, rather than the sudden huge changes which were made in the past *Projectiles cough cough*.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
105
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Posted - 2012.03.11 22:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Deimos and valid ship aren't words meant to be in the same sentence. |
Willl Adama
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
139
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Posted - 2012.03.11 22:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Deimos and valid ship aren't words meant to be in the same sentence.
You'll want to b keeping an eye on 'my eve' section of this forum in the next couple of weeks m8 Check out GARMONATION 9 right now! Check out our site for PVP videos, guides and audio commentaries: www.EVEisEASY.com |
Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
82
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Posted - 2012.03.11 23:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hell just look up Willl & Prozacxx's vids, for shield buffer and active armour pwnage before any winter buffs. And Prom's classic 800mm+MAR+Nos setup. |
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
39
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Posted - 2012.03.12 00:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
In a strictly PvP setting, the impression I get from corp and alliance mates is that rails don't really have a useful niche.
Arty has better alpha, and potentially range, depending on the hull.
Projectiles and missiles have selectable damage types, and don't require cap to fire.
Lasers don't run out of ammo (as mentioned before), and have the ideal damage types versus shield tanked/buffered targets. |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
73
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Posted - 2012.03.12 01:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Blasters are a little more specialized. If you pick up a Laser ship you know that you are generally going to be prepared for most of the targets you come across. You can be gunning down an enemy fleet one minute and just as easily begin taking down a control tower the next.
With blasters you are going to have trouble with certain targets. If you run into a 100mn tengu for example and can't keep up then you might be in for a rough time.
Also, having two less viable ships than one faction isn't that big of a deal. Plus some of the blaster ships you listed can be easily overwhelmed by their laser counterparts. |
Kovorix
Matari Exodus
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 06:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Moral of the story: focus on flying, not which weapon system is better.
Differences in piloting ability and understanding of ships/weapons will make a MUCH larger difference than differences between weapon systems themselves. (this was true even prior to hybrid buff) |
Darthewok
Perkone Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.03.12 07:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Don't waste time trying to figure out the best race, best ship, best class or best weapon. Train at least 2. Because the second you train 1 it gets nerfed/other races get buffed. Especially with massive new changes planned for ship lines, Micro Jump drive etc. etc.
Also, Gallente toilets are more messy than Amarr toilets because they use blasters instead of lazors to shoot the poop. CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Valleria Darkmoon
Parsec Flux
13
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Posted - 2012.03.12 10:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
I pretty much just finished training for blasters and they are super sexy in the right situations, especially large blasters on a Talos make me feel happy in all the right places. That being said some of those laser based ships have fantastic damage projection easily able to apply some solid damage from longer ranges.
I spend a lot of time in a slicer for example. Medium pulse laser IIs are amazing for applying damage around 20km. Not going to hit that with small blasters, rails maybe but for far less damage. It really works out to what you are trained for, the situation you're in and what you know how to use best. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
275
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote: I spend a lot of time in a slicer for example. Medium pulse laser IIs are amazing for applying damage around 20km. Not going to hit that with small blasters, rails maybe but for far less damage. It really works out to what you are trained for, the situation you're in and what you know how to use best.
I agree, everything is situational. Also, Scorch is awesome and that you need rails to counter that range. However, consider these fits:
[Federation Navy Comet, rails 2]
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Lead Charge S [Empty High slot]
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Internal Force Field Array I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines
Small Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II [Empty Rig slot]
Hornet EC-300 x3 Hobgoblin II x3
[Imperial Navy Slicer, Standard]
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S [Empty High slot]
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Co-Processor II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Small Algid Energy Administrations Unit II Small Energy Locus Coordinator I Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
(Slicer fit courtesy of Prom/FHC)
Without those Locus rigs, the Slicer can't reach 20km. With Scorch, Comet outdamages it at all ranges. Slicer has better tracking, but 60dps from Comet comes from Hobs which have a tendency to hit often. Comet is considerably faster, and has more EHP against their respective damage types, and is cap stable vs 40s cap life of the Slicer.
Purely theorycrafting ofc, as neither can hold the other at place outside scram range. Inside scram range there is very little dps difference.
Just as an example of flaws PvP generalizations- especially in the case of Small Hybrids, they are really very good after Crucible.
Medium Rails still suck, and I'm green with envy for lazor sounds and visual effects- they look stunning <3
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