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This years tourney the most boring so far?

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ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.07 19:51:00 - [1] Am i the only one that miss the tourneys were there were both pirate implants, faction bs and a lot of isk at risk in every single match? this year its been all about boring fights with logistics in almost every match. any chance we can bring back the rules from the 2nd or 3rd tourney next year?
Sakura Nihil Stimulus The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.07 20:21:00 - [2] Nah, its just one tactic that's boring, and that can be fixed with a points increase.
Krasnij Okjabre Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.07 20:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Nah, its just one tactic that's boring, and that can be fixed with a points increase. Yes. But AOM is also right. Rigs, pirate implants, boosters etc all have a part to play in Eve as a whole. However, in the tournament this does also limit the people available to take part efficiently, as it becomes less of a skill based fight as opposed as to who has the most isk. Some areas need 'fixing', without doubt. But is needs also to have a degree of balance. Interesting topic, though not the first. The general concensus seems to feel the tourney needs changes. I'd personally like to see a 'Group' fight with 4vs4 round, or a form of 'seeding' as used in summin like the Champions League. However, that idea depends greatly on the server being able to handle up to 40 ships at once You'd be amazed how fast a cast lives run out when you have a hammer.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.07 20:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Nah, its just one tactic that's boring, and that can be fixed with a points increase. a point increase on logistics would help, but even so the fights were still a lot more fun when you faced pimped out faction bs in almost every match imo
Sakura Nihil Stimulus The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.07 20:51:00 - [5] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Sakura Nihil Nah, its just one tactic that's boring, and that can be fixed with a points increase. a point increase on logistics would help, but even so the fights were still a lot more fun when you faced pimped out faction bs in almost every match imo Except that the people without that kind of ISK can't compete effectively . The tourney in my mind isn't about who has the most cash, but rather who has the most skill.
Mythrell Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.07 21:02:00 - [6] I don't think that it's really that boring, they start slowly but most of them did finish before the matches were called today. When faction mods / implants were allowed, there were many turtle setups which didn't actually manage to do anything at all to other team (even one final ended up in interceptor duel because of a draw in final). Another thing to keep in mind is that if you make logistics ships more expensive point wise, there's even less chance of two teams fielding dual logistics to be able to break other team. And no, I'm not fan of the dual logistics, but I still do believe that most of them can countered and that's mostly the only reason why we saw bhaalgorn today (and big increase in neuting ships overall). Capwarfare just takes it time in the start.
Maximada Minmatar eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.07 21:04:00 - [7] tourney gets better year by year imo evetv is on the ball big time
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.07 21:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/03/2008 21:07:56 They should just allow more points total. 2xlogistics ships wouldn't be as huge of a snoozefest if you had enough points to field 2 logistics and 4+ heavy damage ships.
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2008.03.07 21:09:00 - [9] Removing the limits on implants and such wouldn't solve the "logistics ships are boring" issue. That's based on the points system. It is clear (as it was clear last year) that the points system still needs tweaking. Logistics are arguably underpointed, while the EAFs, AFs and BCs are overpointed. Now what I would like to see is a 2nd (and possibly 3rd) category of tournaments hosted. I would love to see a tournament where the teams were open only to frigates - all t1/t2/faction allowed. Or the "cruisers only" tournament where you had some amount of points and could only bring t1/t2/faction cruiser hulls...or maybe an "unlimted" class tournament - bring 6/8/10 whatevers and duke it out...but I doubt say 10 pirate/officer implanted and faction fitted marauders turtle tanking each other would be that fun to watch either.
Krasnij Okjabre Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.07 21:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/03/2008 21:07:56 They should just allow more points total. 2xlogistics ships wouldn't be as huge of a snoozefest if you had enough points to field 2 logistics and 4+ heavy damage ships. Perhaps Shamis has a point... We want to see more 'edge of the seat' stuff. Naturally repping will have a part, but we need to see more pretty lights. Right now the tourney is really stale and X2 Rep is FOTM. Great work by those that field it and it works for them, pretty dull as a viewer. And ultimately, any tourney will get more viewers than participants by nature. Give them some love too =P You'd be amazed how fast a cast lives run out when you have a hammer.
HotSeat Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.07 22:29:00 - [11] I would like to drop logistic's all together, but in real combat we use them all the time, so points increase appears to be only choice. Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !!
Hortoken Wolfbrother Amarr Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.03.07 22:57:00 - [12] Edited by: Hortoken Wolfbrother on 07/03/2008 23:00:01 Edited by: Hortoken Wolfbrother on 07/03/2008 22:59:07 im all for removing logistics completely. They make it boring. But since thats prolly not viable, make logistics 26 points each or so. Then any setup with 2 will just suck, which is appropriate enough really. You think its hard to bust 2 logistics setups... im surprised we havent seen any 3 or even 4 logistics setups this go around. My biggest fear is a team like us could move on, be weak in points and get totally griefed like this.
Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.03.07 23:47:00 - [13] Edited by: Chronos VIII on 07/03/2008 23:48:46 In my opinion fielding more than 1 ship of a class should be penalized. So maybe we have something like this: Team fields two logistics, thats 21 points for the first one and lets say fielding a second one would be penalized with 50% which leads to 31,5 points for the second logistic class ship. This suggestion should be brought to teh experts tbqh. Chronos
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.03.07 23:55:00 - [14] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 07/03/2008 20:13:02 Am i the only one that miss the tourneys were there were both pirate implants, faction bs and a lot of isk were at risk in every single match? this year its been all about boring fights with logistics in almost every match. any chance we can bring back the rules from the 2nd or 3rd tourney next year? Is there any chance we can roll the game back to that point!? IMO less is often more. The game was better when there was no pos warfare, and some of these newer ships. However its just one opinion and I still hate logistic ships. (/me looks at shamis 8P) WildCat
Krasnij Okjabre Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.07 23:58:00 - [15] Originally by: DHB WildCat Originally by: ArmyOfMe Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 07/03/2008 20:13:02 Am i the only one that miss the tourneys were there were both pirate implants, faction bs and a lot of isk were at risk in every single match? this year its been all about boring fights with logistics in almost every match. any chance we can bring back the rules from the 2nd or 3rd tourney next year? Is there any chance we can roll the game back to that point!? IMO less is often more. The game was better when there was no pos warfare, and some of these newer ships. However its just one opinion and I still hate logistic ships. (/me looks at shamis 8P) WildCat And lets give pirates some more fun by removing WTZ... Belongs in general or summin I know, but... You'd be amazed how fast a cast lives run out when you have a hammer.
seliana tanis Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.08 00:13:00 - [16] Certainly watched this one a lot less than the others. In some respects I do miss it where they were playing for these unique must have ships, even if they were riduculous
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.08 00:15:00 - [17] I think the Fat Kid match was the most exciting one today. ___________________________________________
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.08 00:50:00 - [18] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/03/2008 21:07:56 They should just allow more points total. 2xlogistics ships wouldn't be as huge of a snoozefest if you had enough points to field 2 logistics and 4+ heavy damage ships. what would then stop a team from fielding 3 or maybe even 4 logistics and maybe only a curse and a high damage ship? Originally by: DHB WildCat [ IMO less is often more. The game was better when there was no pos warfare, and some of these newer ships. However its just one opinion and I still hate logistic ships. (/me looks at shamis 8P) WildCat Not often i agree with you, but on these points i actually have to agree. Logistic ships are awsome at what they do but imo they have no place in a tourney like this were most ppl acually love to see real street brawls rather then 15min long fights were it takes up to 10min just to be lucky enough with the jamming to break the turtle tanks. I wont get into the whole pos warfare thing here but i agree there as well.
Petrina Uvera	Posted - 2008.03.08 01:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Petrina Uvera on 08/03/2008 02:00:22 I think allot of people aren't getting why the matches are boring( I don't think all the dual logistics vs dual logistics have been boring but they usually are). People are saying it is the dual logistics setup but in fact it is a defensive setup that is boring. This has been a problem in the other tourney's I have watched as well( 2nd and 3rd) and in at least one of those there was max 1 logistics ship. The problem is that you can get an easy win with a very defensive setup. This will be allot more visual in the knockout stage since only 1 team needs to win the other only needs to survive. In my eyes a team has not won the match just because the killed 1 ship worth less then 10points. Any change to a point total of a defensive ship will only make it so that it can either field more defense or even less offense. I think the rules have been pretty solid this tourney except for a few, one that I think every one realize is very wrong(team with most points in groups wins tie break in knockout). Another rule I dislike is the total hell death rule, I like the rule of points counting in group stages though I think it doesn't fit in where a team can win the match without killing everything. My suggestion to a rule change for the next tourney to fix this is to change the victory condition. Going back to 3-1-0 points for win-draw-loss system I would suggest these victory conditions. Win - 3points - You killed every opponent. Win - 3points - You killed more then 50points worth of ships and your opponent killed fewer points worth of ships then you. Draw - 1point - You and your opponent killed less then 50points worth of ships. Loss - 1point - You killed more then 50points worth of ships but your opponent killed more points worth of ships then you. Loss - 0points - You killed less then 50points of ships and your opponent killed more then 50points worth of ships. In the knockout stage a tie break fight will be fought, most likely a 1on1 or 2on2 in small sized vesels(T1/T2 frigates or T1 cruisers). A defensive setup will still be viable in this format but unlike the current system it forces the teams to actually kill multiple opponents to qualify for a win. To make a sports analogy you don't win a soccer match just because you were barely more offensive then the other team and got more corners.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.03.08 02:15:00 - [20] I think it's complete crap to watch an alliance buy some faction ships from CCP by slapping in some high grade sets. I think participation and demand for slots by alliances this year speaks for itself. Please post constructively. ~Saint
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.08 08:26:00 - [21] I remember the NOS Domi's 2 touneys ago. now THAT was boring. watching domi's mate = watching paint dry
Horatio Nately Caldari 808 Enterprises The Red Skull	Posted - 2008.03.08 09:19:00 - [22] still say the best moment was watching the impoc go down a few tourneys back. talk about risking it --------------------------------------- CEO 808 Enterprises, A Hawaii, USA Playercorp Supporting the Caldari State (of mind)
Vardemis Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.08 10:08:00 - [23] The final day has a good chance, becoming the most boring of all. People with more points in the group phase have the ability to just turtle their way through. Which is not a big deal normally, but the tanking setups are incredibly strong if played right. In regards to pirate implants, I am glad that they are not allowed, since the amount of isk you put into the tournament should not be cornerstone of your success. The problem with rigs, implants, boosters is the improved tanks you can get, this tournament is boring enough already.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.08 10:18:00 - [24] I'd say the change to the THD rule was the dumbest call so far in any tourney, encouraging people to fit the setups that are least likely to take any losses = BORING BORING BORING I agree with OP, former tourneys have had a lot better fights overall, and for some reason there was less time between fights too, couchdwellers seem to have to spend a lot of time making up for the dead time between matches... I like shamis's suggestion, perhaps with a ban on fielding more than 2 logistics, altho you could still just circlejerk your BS + logis and stalemate people... http://eve.klaki.net/
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.08 11:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Omega Man on 08/03/2008 11:32:21 This can be a case of selective memory. Are you sure those dampening and jamming setups of previous tournies made exciting fights? Are you sure BOB winning everything with the same setup time and time again was exciting? Are you sure people being able to buy the tournament with implants was exciting? Are you sure turtle tanks, shoot a frigate, and then do nothing was exciting? Everyone has jumped on the bandwagon coz a few mood setters are claiming the tournament is boring. Its a case of the "cool" guys say its boring it must be. Everyone is saying dual logistics are boring, unbeatable and everyone is bringing the same setup. Watch the fights again, that is untrue on at least 3 counts. Other accusations are based on things that will happen in the next few days. Lets see first before calling it boring. - - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2008.03.08 12:59:00 - [26] I agree, and my view on why is probably a bit controversal: It's because the pilots participating in this tournament simply aren't good enough. Why did this happen? - It probably has alot to do with the non-implant rules. The implants didn't really play a big role, but ppl still felt they had to have them. It was an investement you "had" to do. Now, it's basicly free to enter the tournament. So, you may lose a few ships, big deal. As there's basicly no cost, it's alot of fun to participate, and everyone knows they actually have a glimmer of hope of winning due to the "rock-paper-scissors"-element, a whole lot of people wanted in in this tourney, and a whole lot of people didn't get places. So, this kinda was CCP's goal, but it's not a good thing... - Alot of ppl seem to simply lack SP. T1 drones, T1 mods? wtf? Ppl simply do too little damage then. - Many teams seem a bit unprepared, in many ways. - Many teams seem to simply lack real strategic thinking in constructing their setups. They're perfectly capable of looking at the other teams and see "ok, that setup works", but not capable of comming up with their own things. - Many teams seems to have blob/gank FCs, FCs that are perfectly capable of leading their team with the leadership that's required in typical TQ warfare. But they are simply not enough tactically gifted to spot the weakest links and biggest threats in the enemy setups - and know how to overcome them. - In some cases, there's just horrible FCing/piloting. Take for example the drakes on the first day that just sat stationary and allowed the caracals to move outside their missile range. That said, I'm really looking forward to the final day. That's when it's all decided, that's when you want to field your real setup. The first 5 days is just a path that you need to go through without revealing your true strength. It's on the last day, when the opponents don't have time and resources to fully analyze and adapt to your setup, that you want to reveal what you really have on your hands. So, I'm hoping that some teams will step out of the grey zone and put in some really impressive stuff tomorrow. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.08 14:29:00 - [27] I think the rules are better and more exiting than earlier tournaments. The problem is that everyone have adapted. We have seen all the setups before. We have seen most of the figths before. The tournament need to change to a new format regulary to make it fresh and exiting. my suggestions: 1. large arena with warping. You need to be able to scramble and web and keep the tacklers alive. need a scoring system that do not favour setups that avoids combat (rewards killing like this year tournament). 2. capital tournament. 2 set of points. First set is for support ships and second is for capitals , 1 point for dread and carriers and 2 points for ms and titans. Only capital points count towards victory. To keep cost down isd will sponsor full insurance on the supercapitals. fewer teams and longer fights. Not as fast as current tournament , but the explosions are bigger. 3. Tournament in current format but with cheaper faction ships in the later stages. Everyone that got a new and exiting setup will probably save it for the last day so we might still see something new. . you'll never jump alone

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