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Fredi Bobic
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Posted - 2004.04.08 03:48:00 -
[1]
Whilst travelling through Yulai in my Iteron MK IV I was targeted at the Luminaire gate by a guy in a kestrel. There's me smiling away at this person thinking he's another loser hoping someone will shoot him when as I was preparing to endure another boring session reaching the next gate I get raped by 4 cruise missiles.
Yes he was instantly shot to pieces by the sentry guns, but there is me sitting at this gate with 16,000m3 of half valuable cargo, including rare mods and a sprinkling of megacyte, spread out all around me for the world and his wife to pick freely at while I'm sitting in my pod slightly confused.
Anyways, this is apparently fine to do, so any wannabe pirates that want to spend a week training up an alt to sit in 'secure' space shooting industrials in cheap ass frigs then go ahead.
I know his ship got destroyed before anyone rants, but the response I got from big brother was that nowhere is 100% safe. How can I tell jumping into a 1.0 system that some muppet is not going to do it again? Wait until I warp to the gate with a hold full of megacyte so I can be shot to pieces by some guy in his 100k frigate?
This is a half rant, half heads up to anyone thinking about flying a half valuable cargo through 1.0 space, if you can fit it into a cruiser or bs then use that, I sure as hell will.
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Long live the revolution! |
Mr nStuff
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Posted - 2004.04.08 03:56:00 -
[2]
it's the Zombie tactic in slow motion.. My opinion.
My suggestion would be to have your corp go to war with his corp and don't retract the war tell they give back all your stuff nStuff.
5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers..
Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer.
My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period.
Expires on 19. September 2004 |
Fredi Bobic
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Posted - 2004.04.08 03:58:00 -
[3]
I left Techell because of all the wars and general hatred I got for wearing the ticker, I leave and I get raped. Irony  I am at this moment gathering the military wing of the scope to fling righteous fury at the evil guy who did this
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Long live the revolution! |
Trigo
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Posted - 2004.04.08 06:40:00 -
[4]
i got targeted at the same gate in my indy last night and seen the guys blown to peice he musted of scaned my as i had nothing of value in my cargo but then i seen him bolwn to bits in one shot from 2 sentry guns
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Booga |
belzebub1
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Posted - 2004.04.08 06:54:00 -
[5]
Personally I can see 2 ways to avoid this,
1, Put all your valuables in sec cans in your holds and pswd them, They will only tend to attack indys that they can scan and can see what they are carrying,
2, If your cargo is not 2 big fit a cruiser with 2 warp core stabaliser and 2 x 10MN MWD's and you should be fine
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Dont forget to visit Magma Index at the below Link.
http://www.magmaindex.uni.cc/ |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2004.04.08 10:28:00 -
[6]
It's alt-abuse - plain and simple. And like most exploits there's nothing you can do about it other than wait until CCP decides to stamp it out. Sadly quite legitimate tactics will probably be stamped on at the same time...sigh...
Oh, and last I heard sec cans only work as sec cans when anchored - although I don't think you can scan items in cans in a hold (not sure about that).
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2004.04.08 10:57:00 -
[7]
This will be solved upon the introduction of the criminal flagging system with shiva i think.
Anyone not a corp or alliance member of the guy killed should be flagged criminal upon picking up the loot, opening himn up to player attacks.
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Brother Five
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:15:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
Anyone not a corp or alliance member of the guy killed should be flagged criminal upon picking up the loot, opening himn up to player attacks.
There is the chance of someone happening along at the wrong moment, and picking up the loot in all innocence then, isn't there?
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In space, no one can hear you scheme... |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:15:00 -
[9]
I think alot of people have poor attitudes towards this game. Many that resemble the atitude of a very frustrated person trying to get his rocks off in a game by doing whatever ****es other people off the most. I'm not just talking about the aggressors here. I'm also talking about the people who relentlessly flame, whine and try to get a person BANNED for opting to steal and extort instead of being lawfull...
imho alot of people lose track of the fact that this is a game and an RPG at that. In RPG there are lawfull and chaotic people...and dowright evil ones two ;).
I think this game could be alot more playable if both sides of the law were a little more reasonable.
I think this is a good warning for you that nothing is ever completely safe and that your better off being precoutious instead of 'smiling at the person locking you'. Ive been destroyed by people with frigates in high sec space alot...since then ive learned to be cautious with frigates in high sec space when your flying an indy. I would suggest you do the same.
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Macca
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:29:00 -
[10]
First bit of advice, drop the mk.IV in favor or a mk.V.
you get a lot more cpu and powergrid to play with.
This is my current configuration for my indy.
Hi slots
Nothing 
Mid slots
2x 10mn afterburners (I have 1 named one and an ordanary one)
A Shield booster (preferably medium)
2x Shield hardners (sounds silly, but with the booster it might just give you enough time to leg it to the gate :) )
Low slots
A mixture of overdrives/nanofibres/cargo expanders to get as much cargo as you need and lets you go as quick as possible.
Secure containers are also a good idea
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Valorian
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:32:00 -
[11]
Perhaps Concord should have Defender style missiles, that can target any missile fired by someone they deem to have done an aggressive criminal act. That way it is a lose-lose situation for people trying this sad tactic.
An NPC Corporation is not the pilot of its ships and structures! |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:41:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 08/04/2004 11:42:56
Smartbombs are an indy's best friend against suicide kestrels.
Also, CCP frowns on it, so try a petition.
As for a "fix"? Gate guns should target missiles fired (in 0.5+ sec non-war situations) and kill em. That'd end THAT tactic in a hurry.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Finn Macha
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:48:00 -
[13]
That same idiot also targeted me 3 times last night. fortunately he never fired on me. Guess he didn't like my Ectoplasm cargo. Maybe he was scaning passing indies, finds one with some nice stuff, unfortunately yours, then blasts you to pieces. If this was cooridinated, then he would have a freind or two pick up the loot and meet back at the locale station to divide up the goods.
Is this a new or old tactic?
Space reserved for future signature. |
hatchette
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:00:00 -
[14]
Price for carrying valuable minerals in indy... you can get 100k of minerals in BS with some expanders.
We're sacrificing kestrels on ore thiefs also.. so you are never completely safe.. anywhere..
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Randuin MaraL
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:16:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Randuin MaraL on 08/04/2004 12:23:36
Quote:
It's alt-abuse - plain and simple. And like most exploits there's nothing you can do about it other than wait until CCP decides to stamp it out. Sadly quite legitimate tactics will probably be stamped on at the same time...sigh...
Oh, and last I heard sec cans only work as sec cans when anchored - although I don't think you can scan items in cans in a hold (not sure about that).
Never thought I'd ever agree to you, ... "amarr" ...  - but Vermillion Hells, you are right in all points iirc.
It is hard for CONCORD to tell who is the friend of the villain that waits for the loot to drop and to pick it up (not that new a tactics); so any changes in the laws of EVE (aka gamem mechanics) will be hard to develop, do not expect anything from SHIVA, I daresay.
Sentries shooting at missiles could be an option but would not guarantee safety as players tend to be highly imaginative. I suggest too, to use better protected ships for the transport of values; or to travel in convoys. That way, convoy ships can pick and save the loot before ssomeone else gets it.
Suicide kestrels think semi-smart, you must think smart, then.
____________________________________________________
Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die.
MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:21:00 -
[16]
From my time in Curse killing indies in a kestrel, the Iteron 4/5 usually required the use of 5 cruise missiles (and that was using them in order of em, heat, heat, kinetic) so either the Kestrel pilot has cruise missile 5 or you have pretty poor shield/armour/hull skills.
It goes back to my thread from yesterday - you're in more danger in Yulai than you are in Passari.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
kwoodward
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:22:00 -
[17]
3 scure cans, 1 itteron mk5, 4 power diags, 1 exapnder,1 10Mn MWD, smart bomb
no problemn just de carefull what the smartbomb hits!!!!
with this setup you'll be dashing the gates @ >800m/s so your "safer"
of course this leaves only a little more than 10k space inc the cans but they cant see or get what your carrying and your fast, have missile deffence it's sound.
if you look at the mk5's sheid it's pants compaired to armour anyway so the MWD penilty is't a great loss.
Meow! |
Lachenlaud
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:30:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Smartbombs are an indy's best friend against suicide kestrels.
All well and good to have a smartbomb on your indy - but what about this scenario:
1. You're approaching a gate .
2. Someone in a kestrel target locks you from 20 klicks out .
3. There are 3 other ships within range of your smartbomb .
4. Missiles are approaching - you hit the smartbomb. Concord at the same time is shredding the kestrel that fired them .
5. Smartbomb takes out missiles - damages the guys flying nearby. You're saved from the missiles BUT....
6. Concord then thrashes you and blows your indy because you initiated an act of agression against the 'innocent' bystanders who were travelling to the same gate .
7. The friends of the guy flying the kestrel pick up what is left of your indy's cargo ANYWAY and you're still sitting in a flipping easter egg wondering what the heck just happened .
[email protected]
http://www.goi-eve.com/forums/
Check out the Eve Master Datasheet here!! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:32:00 -
[19]
HANG ON A BLOODY MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're using an indy in Empire Space and you don't have insta-jumps?
/me faints
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Fredi Bobic
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Posted - 2004.04.08 13:00:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I think alot of people have poor attitudes towards this game. Many that resemble the atitude of a very frustrated person trying to get his rocks off in a game by doing whatever ****es other people off the most. I'm not just talking about the aggressors here. I'm also talking about the people who relentlessly flame, whine and try to get a person BANNED for opting to steal and extort instead of being lawfull...
imho alot of people lose track of the fact that this is a game and an RPG at that. In RPG there are lawfull and chaotic people...and dowright evil ones two ;).
I think this game could be alot more playable if both sides of the law were a little more reasonable.
I think this is a good warning for you that nothing is ever completely safe and that your better off being precoutious instead of 'smiling at the person locking you'. Ive been destroyed by people with frigates in high sec space alot...since then ive learned to be cautious with frigates in high sec space when your flying an indy. I would suggest you do the same.
I'm just gonna ignore you, the fact that the guy had no opportunity to take my stuff either makes him a random griefer, not someone that is making a living through lawlessness or he had someone waiting to pick the stuff up, in which case I fail to see how it is fair that that person has no penalty imposed on them?
I was carrying all my stuff in secure cans. I don't use indys alot, only when there's alot of mods that can't fit into my bs's. Smartbombs will hardly stop 4 cruise missiles right next to a gate. It's not my skills so don't start on that.
Was just letting people know that CCP seems to think we should take risks everywhere we go, even if that means not knowing whether some random griefer will be at a gate waiting in a kestrel in a 1.0 system, which of course will make it too late for most indy pilots.
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Long live the revolution! |
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.04.08 13:48:00 -
[21]
I think smartbombs in empire space are a big no-no.
I would suggest picking up some shield extenders, I know almost no one uses these so they are normally cheap. I know a few ppl that use them for cases like you describe. One set-up where a badger II with expanders has over 1200 shields and not to bad speed. Between the expanders and the larger armor the indys have this might be enough to take quite a few cruise missiles if travelling afk at least until the kestrel is toast by the sentry guns.
Not to positive how well it works since I have not been fired on when using this type of set-up. Plus if 2 kestrels attack I dont know if it will work, like suggested hardeners might work better if you are not afk.
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Marcennis
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Posted - 2004.04.08 14:57:00 -
[22]
Although this sounds like a pathetic thing to do, does it matter whether it was a griefer or an organized plot to blow you up and take your cargo?
Nope. It doesn't. And there's no way to tell, either through automatic or human means (well, unless you ask the guy). Maybe s/he has enough ISK to blow on a Kestrel + Skills + Missiles just to take you out - can you suggest a single thing to prevent this from occuring as a legit tactic?
Not really. Not without serious draconian measures, although I like the idea of sentries firing on missiles in Empire - I just don't know if this is possible to do ... if it is though, I'm all for it. What about if you're hunting NPCs at the gate with missiles? I just don't know if this is doable.
I'm basically saying the intent is irrelevant, doesn't matter if its griefer or tactician...
Thanks for the heads up.
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Mining & Transport - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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kwoodward
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Posted - 2004.04.08 15:55:00 -
[23]
Quote:
I think smartbombs in empire space are a big no-no.
I would suggest picking up some shield extenders, I know almost no one uses these so they are normally cheap. I know a few ppl that use them for cases like you describe. One set-up where a badger II with expanders has over 1200 shields and not to bad speed. Between the expanders and the larger armor the indys have this might be enough to take quite a few cruise missiles if travelling afk at least until the kestrel is toast by the sentry guns.
Not to positive how well it works since I have not been fired on when using this type of set-up. Plus if 2 kestrels attack I dont know if it will work, like suggested hardeners might work better if you are not afk.
The itty mk 5 has poor shields but lots of armour look at the stats from eve-db
Shield
Shield HP 300 hp
Armour
Armour 875 hp
Structure
hp 950
so shield extenders wouldnĘt get you that much shield, BUT on the other hand it could easily double the shield you have.
assuming the kestrals fire 4 cm's they may do(without hardening and def not on structure) 350 dmg each thatĘs 1400dmg so with shield extenders you "may" survive 4 cm hits.
Meow! |
Traiben Mightius
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:20:00 -
[24]
I think I've gotta agree with Ulendar, it's a game, there are risks to everything. Honestly, the easiest way to make 1.0 safe is to remove all of the mission points from it and make it so your weapons deactivate while you're in the system. No weapons, no attacks. There's your safe zone.
Instead CCP created a more realistic world... a less-than-adequate police force protects "civilized" space using guidelines that protect "civilized" players in most situations and even protects the "criminals" in many circumstances, but has trouble with the really creative "criminals" who use loopholes to get around the law. CCP then works to close these loopholes as they come up (often creating more loopholes).
Your situation is unfotunate to say the least, I don't think any one of us would want to be blasted like that with no way of fighting back. But as a wise man once said, "sh** happens". In the real world, you could be traveling down a nice rural road in the middle of the country where no crime has been committed in decades... only to have some nut run you off the road, get out of his car and blow you away because he didn't like the color of your car. It's sick, it's insane, he might get caught, he might not, he might kill himself 5 minutes later, he might... reality is far more frightening than this game ever could be.
We do not need a utopia here, utopias are boring as hell. I'd much rather have a more realistic game.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Bejamin Franklin
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Razaelle
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:46:00 -
[25]
Somebody emitted the idea that the cargo of an aggressed player should be picked up by CONCORD as 'proof' of the aggression.
This kind of gate camping would then become pointless...
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:54:00 -
[26]
"nothing is completely safe"
Horse****.
The suicide kestrel is completely safe. he won't be podded and no one can pod him.
His thief friends waiting to pick up the resultiung cans are completeley safe.
In fact, the only people NOT safe are the victims and anyone who tries to assist them. Player-policing sounds like a great idea. Too bad i could be sitting there in a Tempest and not lift a finger to help. In fact, even if as suggested, the indy triggered a Smartbomb to eat the incoming missiles... he's trapped himself, as he will not be allowed to jump.
"nowhere is completely safe" is an ill-thought-out, throwaway "stop bothering us with stuff we dont wanna admit is FUBAR" response.
Either 1.0 is SAFE or it ISNT SAFE.
If it's SAFE, random attacks on people should FAIL.
If it ISN'T SAFE, let people SHOOT BACK...
DOWN WITH CONCORD.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.04.08 17:04:00 -
[27]
Ganging up should make agressor pod-killing valid.
As should getting shot at make pod-killing valid.
Inagine:
kestrel, attacking indy. Volley 1 doesnt cause death (smart indy pilot with hardeners), indy cackles with glee as concord destroys foolish kestrel and indy pilot decides to kill kestrel-man's pod with the cruiser gun he has equipped.
Hilarity ensues, local laughs at kestrel pilot and all is well.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.08 17:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 08/04/2004 17:42:14
1) You should skip the Iteron Mk-IV. It stinks in so many ways. Except for a bit more cargo space, a tad more speed and an extra med slot the Mk-III is better in almost all respects.
Iteron Mk-III:
Shields -- 175
Armor -- 700
Structure -- 850
Top Speed -- 115 m/s
Grid -- 75
CPU -- 750
Cap -- 550
Cargo -- 3250 m3
Total Hit Points -- 1725
Iteron Mk-IV:
Shields -- 150
Armor -- 650
Structure -- 750
Top Speed -- 120 m/s
Grid -- 70
CPU -- 750
Cap -- 400
Cargo -- 3500 m3
Total 'Hit Points' -- 1550
In short, the Mk-IV cannot really be considered an 'upgrade' from the Mk-III. What few points the Mk-IV beats the Mk-III at are far too little to make up for where it falls behind. Go back to a Mk-III or move up to a Mk-V. If you don't want to go 'back' to a Mk-III and can't stomach the training for a Mk-V then train-up (won't take but a week or so starting on that from scratch) to use a Badger-II that is much more survivable than a Mk-III or Mk-IV.
2) Not sure how it is you get ganked by 4 cruise missiles. Even if the Kestrel user had perfect skills 4 cruise missiles do 1400 damage vs. 1550 total points the Mk-IV has available. I suppose damage leaking through armor might just get him there but then again these numbers do not count for natural resistances that nerf the damage you take. Sure there wasn't a second Kestrel about?
Regardless pop an EM and Thermal hardener on your ship and I don't think there is any way 4 cruise missiles can gank a Mk-IV. Hardeners are easy to fit and run endlessly so it shouldn't be a problem.
3) Kestrel rapes might be considered a 'fair' tactic if the person doing it had any downside to worry about. If someone wants to play the pirate and steal from passind indies then fine but that person should have to take the good with the bad. As I understand it most Kestrel rapes are done by ALTs thus avoiding incurring any consequences to the character. They stay in the newb corp so you cannot declare war on them and you have no clue who the primary is so you can't get them. If the primary is in an NPC corp you cannot get them either.
Fix this ALT exploitation like this thus making people accountable for their actions.
4) I'm not sure making gate guns shoot missiles will work. I have been ganked by an interceptor that shot me from point-blank range. Unless the system is hyper-responsive the
kestrel merely flies nose-to-nose with you and unloads. I'm guessing the gate guns will not respond fast enough to stop the missiles.
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Anubies Hazas
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Posted - 2004.04.08 18:17:00 -
[29]
couldnt this problem be solved with using another topic, allowing others to see your alts. or the rule by concord should allow: if the aggressor is doing anything agressive towards you, you have the right to do same as an act of self-protection.
even in real life, if some thief comes n threatened your life or property, you have the right to act in self-defense. maybe your not allow to kill, may depend on country rule, but you can do other bodily harm as long it doesnt kill the thief.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.08 18:29:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 08/04/2004 18:31:48
Quote:
...or the rule by concord should allow: if the aggressor is doing anything agressive towards you, you have the right to do same as an act of self-protection.
It already is the case that if you are attacked you can defend yourself in EVE without repercussion to you from CONCORD.
Thing is, haulers have precious little in the way of offensive power. They can mount a single turret and a smartbomb max. Sbomb doesn't do you much good offensively unless the attacker gets up real close to your ship. Your single turret isn't going to kill much of anything except for 1-2k rats. You certainly have zero chance against a Kestrel unless the other pilot is really, really stupid.
Now, if CCP introduced a variant hauler akin to the AC-130 "Spectre" gunship the United States employs that might be something different. Let a griefer ready to gank an indy discover that it is in fact an incredibly heavily armed gunship.
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