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Kiros Seagill
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Posted - 2004.04.09 14:57:00 -
[1]
The nerfing of the apoc has to stop. It already is useless enough in combat. Please retract some of the things that make it so. First off, armor tanking and shield tanking, although possible on the apoc, prohibits you from using lasers with it! The modules used for tanking simply take to much powergrid and cap. So sure you are flying around a ship that can take a beating but can't deal out any damage at all. Second the apoc can't even deal that much damage compared to the megathron or tempest. Lets bring the apoc back up to par with these two. I would like to see the apoc be given more cap or for lasers to use less powergrid. Third is with the nerf of the Cap power relay the apoc is ganna be down and out. Lasers suck cap like there is no tomorrow and with no way to recharge faster the apoc is ganna be flying around sputtering out a laser shot every now and then or is ganna have to warp out of battle and recharge. This is no good! I would very much like to see the majestic apoc come back into the battlefield.  |
Verravo
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:01:00 -
[2]
sounds fair
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cashman
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:03:00 -
[3]
As it is now, Apoc and Arma suck Unless you're a miner of course.
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:09:00 -
[4]
cap boosters..
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:15:00 -
[5]
Please see the following threads:
Thread #1
Thread #2
Those threads are full of whining amarrian pilots who refuse to listen to advice given to them about setups. They all want to fit 8 tachyons, have 8k cap, 120 second recharge, and have enough lo-slots left for 2 lrg armour repairers and 3 armour hardeners.
You already have the best miner, the best NPC hunter, the most cap, the most armour, and the most devestating weapons against unprotected shields.
What more do you bloody want?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Kiros Seagill
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:21:00 -
[6]
I'm not worried about fitting 8 shields or cap recharge. I just want the apoc to be at par with the the mega and tempest for ****** sake! A tempest could take down an apoc quite easily. Sure an apoc can take down unprotected shields but it has extreme problems with armor and structure. The apoc has be nerfed to hell. I want the old apoc back! The apoc has to many nerfs on it to count! |
Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:22:00 -
[7]
Indeed, it has been stated (many many times infact) that the Apoc was not meant to be so damned powerfull in the first place. Get over it. Each ship is supposed to have their own little qurks that make them better than others in some aspects, and worse in other aspects. That is what ccp is trying to acheive, balance! Not give everyone a single ship that can kill everything in sight with no risk!
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Analysis[Ceasefire]....Complete - 'Term given to the act of firing, causing the ceasation of the life it is directed at |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:25:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
I'm not worried about fitting 8 shields or cap recharge. I just want the apoc to be at par with the the mega and tempest for ****** sake! A tempest could take down an apoc quite easily. Sure an apoc can take down unprotected shields but it has extreme problems with armor and structure. The apoc has be nerfed to hell. I want the old apoc back! The apoc has to many nerfs on it to count!
In the meantime, try blasters or dual heavy beams.
Since I can't pilot amarr ships at all I can't try to make a good setup, but I know they're out there.
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Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.04.09 18:14:00 -
[9]
The apoc is good enough, ffs. Learn to set up your ship.
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Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.04.09 18:27:00 -
[10]
apoc is pretty good if you don't use lasers on it
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2004.04.09 18:37:00 -
[11]
Tachs are not worth it. Get in close and try dual heavies. You will be suprised.
Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS |
Devestator
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:05:00 -
[12]
Get 4 Skills then come back and complain about the apocs capacitor:
Amarr BS 4
Energy Management 4
Energy System Ops 5
Controlled Burst 4
Apocs make Great Shield Tanks and Still Do OK DMG With 4 Tachyon, 2 missile launcher, 2 Heavy Mod beam setup. They can Toe to Toe with any other BS in the Game.
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Tyrael Winterheart
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:16:00 -
[13]
It seems that you failed to mention the Raven along with the other level 2 battleships.... convienent neglect?
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Lallante
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:21:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Lallante on 09/04/2004 19:24:22
Edited by: Lallante on 09/04/2004 19:22:27
I think im one of the most experienced Apoc Pilots in the game, I have all the appropriate skills to level 5.
Now tell me, why cant I, with a full loadout of tachyons (4 if your not using Power mods) and lvl 5 Large Energy Turret, Amarr BS, Rapid Fire and Surgical Strike, do the same damage as any old lvl 3 skills guy in a megathron with 425s OR Neutrons.
Ill tell you why, because Literally EVERY BS pilot uses a EM hardener as a matter of course, and usually a thermal one as well.
To solve the problem, the solution is NOT to up apoc dmg, it is to make hardeners more costly to fit! I mean FFS being able to HALF the dmg done to you in a type for only 30 odd CPU and more or less no Cap or Power. CRAZY. Make Hardeners take 25 Cap every 5seconds, thatll sort things out in a hurry.
On top of this, the Amarr BS skill bonus is exactly that, BS. We need either dmg or Rate of fire bonus, the same as the other BSs
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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Bexxly
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:40:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Tachs are not worth it. Get in close and try dual heavies. You will be suprised.
I've had that set-up used on me with an Armageddon. I was fairly impressed. The 'geddon took a pounding by armoiur tanking and dished out nice consistent damage. Would like to put that on an apoc sometime, if I ever decide to get another one 
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Devestator
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:48:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Now tell me, why cant I, with a full loadout of tachyons (4 if your not using Power mods) and lvl 5 Large Energy Turret, Amarr BS, Rapid Fire and Surgical Strike,
You have lvl 5 in Amarr BS, Large Energy Turret, Rapid Fire, and Surgical Strike. I'm impressed. Good Skills!
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John Bishop
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:48:00 -
[17]
im with lalante on this i have a decent recharge rat and can deal devasting blows to an unprotected ship. but any battleship captian worth his salt uses em or thermal sheild hardners. that pretty much kills the lasers effectiviness in half.. other than npc hunting and mining the apoc is weak becuase of hardners.
i dont want to see the hardners being nerfed out of practicalatie but make it less rewarding to use it
yes i know my spelling sucks. so sue me
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sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:59:00 -
[18]
Quote:
...Literally EVERY BS pilot uses a EM hardener as a matter of course, and usually a thermal one as well.
To solve the problem, the solution is NOT to up apoc dmg, it is to make hardeners more costly to fit! I mean FFS being able to HALF the dmg done to you in a type for only 30 odd CPU and more or less no Cap or Power. CRAZY. Make Hardeners take 25 Cap every 5seconds, thatll sort things out in a hurry.
On top of this, the Amarr BS skill bonus is exactly that, BS. We need either dmg or Rate of fire bonus, the same as the other BSs
How is it that this nerfs the Apoc? So your damage is nerfed by hardeners against lasers that are all EM and Thermal damage dealers. Someone using Kinetic or Explosive ammo gets their damage nerfed by 40% and 60% respectively via the natural resistances of the shield and it costs the target absolutely nothing for that.
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mafish
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:22:00 -
[19]
but at the same time if they dont have a emp hardener on you do full damage where as say my phased plasma does less ne way just because people use em hardeners dont mean the apoc is useless. i have yet to beat molehs apoc in a 1 vs 1 in my tepest but i bet i could most other apoc flyer's its all about the set up
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:35:00 -
[20]
Quote:
To solve the problem, the solution is NOT to up apoc dmg, it is to make hardeners more costly to fit! I mean FFS being able to HALF the dmg done to you in a type for only 30 odd CPU and more or less no Cap or Power. CRAZY. Make Hardeners take 25 Cap every 5seconds, thatll sort things out in a hurry.
Hardeners are fine, without them battleships would die too fast. XL Shield Boosters take an awful lot of capacitor already, so it's not like people are invincible.
Also you are exaggerating the fact people tank vs EM/Thermal way too much, look, all weapons in EVE are resisted ~50%, spin it all you want, and its the truth.
Most battleships are tanked 50% EM 60% Thermal 40% Kinetic 60% Explosive, correct? Average it out, lasers are not really any more effected by shield hardeners than any other weapon, the only problem is lasers use more capacitor to fire, by design.
Quote:
On top of this, the Amarr BS skill bonus is exactly that, BS. We need either dmg or Rate of fire bonus, the same as the other BSs
The Amarr bonuses are not bad, honestly do you think the Capacitor bonus on the Apocalypse is bad? I don't I wish I had 7,500 cap on my ship, I'll trade you large hybrid optimal range for that.
Armageddon is really an excellent ship, it's just designed for the short range lasers, like dual heavys, with which I believe it is actually a pretty damn good ship, it's just most people prefer that extra medium slot on the Apocalypse and it's not like money is an issue for most PvPers.
I don't think Amarr ships would be very good without that reduction to laser capacitor usage bonus either, obviously. You'd certainly miss it, if it were switched with a damage bonus.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
FileCop AI
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Posted - 2004.04.09 21:28:00 -
[21]
There is something terribly wrong with the apoc. All those low slots and having to fill a good bunch of them with cap relays - that's just wrong.
And I only know ONE apoc guy who hasn't trained other ships than apoc - that pretty much shows it's crap. No matter what you guys say in here. If it's not being used, it means it's crap. There's a reason why you don't use inertia stabilisers right? It's crap.
FileCop AI of MASS
Co-CEO |
Lallante
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Posted - 2004.04.09 22:34:00 -
[22]
your missing the point:
Quote:
Most battleships are tanked 50% EM 60% Thermal 40% Kinetic 60% Explosive, correct? Average it out, lasers are not really any more effected by shield hardeners than any other weapon, the only problem is lasers use more capacitor to fire, by design.
The other gun types have higher damage to compensate. Lasers are roughly AS GOOD or marginally better when NO hardeners are used. With 2 hardeners, Lasers are a little over 1/2 as good as the other gun types. There was massive thread on this somewhere: go take a look
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:13:00 -
[23]
Quote:
The other gun types have higher damage to compensate. Lasers are roughly AS GOOD or marginally better when NO hardeners are used. With 2 hardeners, Lasers are a little over 1/2 as good as the other gun types. There was massive thread on this somewhere: go take a look
I haven't seen the other thread and don't know where to start looking so I'll just ask:
Does what you mention account for ALL variables in weapons? IIRC a 1400 outdamages a Tachyon but it fires about half as fast and its falloff range is worse. As such I'm not sure its DoT isn't actually worse than a Tachyon. Of course its very low cap useage is a big advantage allowing better ability to shield tank but on a gun-to-gun comparison is the Tach really only half as good as any of its counterparts?
(I honestly don't know...I don't fly battleships myself yet and haven't done the math but on paper they don't look too unbalanced from each other)
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Shredder
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:14:00 -
[24]
Right now apocs are fine imo, but as soon as they nerf relays there's gonna be cap probs. The way ccp want us to go is via armor tanking and using mk2 cap rechargers in medium, however armor repairers suck compared to shield boosters, you need more of them and theyre a lot slower (constant recharge is better than boosts every 15 secs, gives more time to asses damage). But most importantly if you tank shields youve got a nice amount of time to run if you loose shields (armor time), but if you're armor tanked youve just got your stucture time to run, thats not enough. Also as peeps say apocs damage is bad, but its not terrible (i can do a good bit of damage with tachs and heavy mod beams tec) but its not parable to other lvl 3 battleships. Tempest, mega and raven all have great damage, without the cap problems.
Whats the apocs role in the game? Megathrons are largely close combat blasters(neutrons etc, massive damage, low cap need for guns), tempests are long range high damage killers (huge damage, no cap usage, huge range), and ravens are all round high damage any range (missiles, no cap, v low fitting requirements)
In summary - the damage and tanking on apocs is ok, its being able to tank whilst fitting high requirement laser guns, and finding enough cap to run it all thats the problem. (or is going to be the problem after they nerf relays)
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Xavier Perez
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:54:00 -
[25]
If they'd bring tach damage back to where it was pre-castor and lower the power reqs on the repairers to about half what they are, the apoc would be just fine, even with the cap power relay nerf.
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PaulAtreides
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Posted - 2004.04.10 02:06:00 -
[26]
Edited by: PaulAtreides on 10/04/2004 02:13:21
Not true the Apoc is great at what it does, as long as you know how to set it up properly....
Highslots:
8X Miner II
Midslots:
L Shield, Astroid Servey unit, L Cap rechager II, Shield Amp
Lowslots:
4,Cap Power relays, 2 Warp core stabs, 1 cargo expander.
See...great at what it does.....MINING.
Apoc Disclaimer (Written under the "Welcome to your new Ship" doormat apon first getting into your ship): Please do not true to use this ship as a combat vessel...you will die.
edit: made it easier on the eyez. 
Want to work for me? |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.04.10 03:05:00 -
[27]
What non-laser users are forgetting is that while laser damage eats *unprotected* (which is indeed uncommon) shield quickly, eating the armor will take ages with the EM and heat damage that lasers dish out.
Projectile users and missile users have the advantage of being able to choose their damage types, hybrid users are not as bad off as laser users, they do have a harder time taking down the shield though.
This is a part of why my Apoc & Arma are mostly rusting somewhere.
Yes I could fit projectiles or hybrids, but that's not how Amarr ships are meant to be fitted! So we clearly have *some* sort of problem.
¼©¼
a history |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.10 03:29:00 -
[28]
Quote:
The other gun types have higher damage to compensate. Lasers are roughly AS GOOD or marginally better when NO hardeners are used. With 2 hardeners, Lasers are a little over 1/2 as good as the other gun types. There was massive thread on this somewhere: go take a look
Single hits mean nothing, DOT is more important. Just because a 425mm Railgun or 1400mm Howitzer might land harder hits doesn't mean it's the same DOT, lasers generally have the best DMG/ROF ratio and the best tracking.
If you're so worried about capacitor why don't you just use a damn cap injector and some 800s? Damn useful midslot module, if you ask me, especially for armor tanks.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.10 06:57:00 -
[29]
Are u worried about the Apoc??! If you only could fly Caldari BS you would see what is dmg nerf...
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Tyrrax Thorrk
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Posted - 2004.04.10 07:09:00 -
[30]
I fly Apocs solely. I believe it's quite a good ship, but I doubt I'll be using lasers alone, nice thing about apoc is that since there's no benefit to using lasers you can use whatever suits the task at hand. Blasters/800mm autocannons/pulse for shortrange and 425mm/1400mm/megabeams for long..
I don't like how lasers aren't as superior when used on an apoc as hybrids are when used on a gallente ship, or projectile used on a tempest, but flexibility isn't all bad, I guess. Kinda sucks tho how tachyons are essentially garbage due to cap use / dmg dealt..
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