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Lilkal
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Posted - 2008.03.13 19:26:00 -
[1]
Does anyone use beam lasers?
If so, when is the right to time to use them?
Playing with EveFit it seems like pulse will always give you better dps ( at least on everything from frigs through battlecruisers).
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Asestorian
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Posted - 2008.03.13 19:30:00 -
[2]
Beams are the long range weapon for the Amarr, and like for most primary turret using races, they are used primarily for missions or fleet sniping on battleships. There are other ways to use them, but they tend to be for more specific circumstances.
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MOZO
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Usagi Toshiro
Fringe Financial and Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:12:00 -
[3]
I use both types of lasers. I run a split of 3 and 3 on my BC for missions (PvE). The beams offer more range. Depending on your skills and the crystals you use you can balance them well. Using different crystal combos I can quickly modify the range of my 2 laser types to match and overlap in the middle, doing nearly equal damage.
The description in the item pane is a good explanation. Beams are for long range engagements. Pulse are for medium to short encounters.
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Billy Sastard
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:19:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Usagi Toshiro
I use both types of lasers. I run a split of 3 and 3 on my BC for missions (PvE).....
NO!!
Stop that right now and just fit 6 pulses or beams. You are gimping your setup doing this.
Please, stop being a noob and do better.
See here for clarification...
DONT MIX GUNS!
-=^=-
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notaway
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:17:00 -
[5]
I ignore that don't mix guns thing and I read that article... of course, at the time, I was using my Thrasher which has bonus for tracking..I always put in weapons as allowed by cpu and pg limitations. So the one missile slot and then as many 280 II's as I could along with 200 AC II's. If I could not fit, I reduced a 280 to a 250 etc until I got them all in place...never had any problems mixing guns in a thrasher...of course with that tracking bonus it seemed like nothing ever missed a target...
It's not an issue in a myrm/domi as drones are the factor nor in drake/raven where missiles r used..Drones take the place of short range weapons for me in larger ships....
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Divus
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:31:00 -
[6]
both laser types have their place and time. pulses = shortrange, beams = longrange.
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Usagi Toshiro
Fringe Financial and Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Originally by: Usagi Toshiro
I use both types of lasers. I run a split of 3 and 3 on my BC for missions (PvE).....
NO!!
Stop that right now and just fit 6 pulses or beams. You are gimping your setup doing this.
Please, stop being a noob and do better.
See here for clarification...
DONT MIX GUNS!
While my mixed setup is still fairly new, it has been working fine so far. I feel that modifying ranges with crystals isquick and I mentally know the ranges for both gun types with each crystal so I can modify them on the fly. I haven't encountered a PVE scenario where this has gotten me into trouble, but I'm sure there may be a time where that happens as with anything. The two particular guns I am using have identical DPS with my skills, so there's no 'nerf' in that dept.
I feel that having the pulses (falloff 4,600m) gives me more of a punch solo against frigates. Yes, my drones usually handle them, but it's nice to have something more if the drones aren't cutting it. The beams have a falloff of almost 10k, making them ineffective against close targets. I also run a malkuth heavy launcher with mission specific ammo to pack a wallop.
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Billy Sastard
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 23:36:00 -
[8]
Fine... Don't listen to the guy who has been-there-done-that with the lasers...
/me lets the noobs give each other advice and goes on his way.  
-=^=-
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Hexperience
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2008.03.15 00:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Fine... Don't listen to the guy who has been-there-done-that with the lasers...
/me lets the noobs give each other advice and goes on his way.
Hehe, some people just need to learn the hard way mate. 
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notaway
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.15 05:30:00 -
[10]
If ur drone skills are well trained, they should have no problem with other drones, frigates--make sure u have the drone settings correctly set....A target painter will also help for specific targets and can be used to aggro instead of a weapon...
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Pan Dora
Bears Inc
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 07:12:00 -
[11]
If you are using mixed guns and dont have problem, probably its because you dont need 1/4 of your ship potential to whatever are you doing, so you dont have trouble at all using 1/3.
Pan |
F'nog
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.03.15 08:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pan Dora
If you are using mixed guns and dont have problem, probably its because you dont need 1/4 of your ship potential to whatever are you doing, so you dont have trouble at all using 1/3.
Very true. If someone is having no difficulty doing something, chances are anyone could do it with anything but the worst possible setup. That doesn't mean that there are encounters out there which will prove one's chosen setup inadequate. This appplies to any setup, but is even more important to those who say, "This works fine with my ship and setup against stupid adversaries."
A well-skilled pilot can use a noob ship to kill mediocre NPCs. That doesn't mean it's a good setup. It just means he knows what he's doing.
But when you face a difficult opponent, be it a swarm of NPCs in a higher level mission, or a real person, what you found was useful may get you killed. At that point it may be worth considering that the vets were giving good advice, not just trying to act superior or authoritative.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Pan Dora
Bears Inc
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 08:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: notaway
It's not an issue in a myrm/domi as drones are the factor nor in drake/raven where missiles r used..Drones take the place of short range weapons for me in larger ships....
myrm:the damage output of 6 medium turrets are not a factor you may ignore just because the main factor its your 5 drones.
domi:same argment, just diferent size of turrets/drones and the fact that the domi have a bonus to large hybrid turrets.
drake: HM are superior to HAM in everything except for RoF of launchers (in the end more DPS to HAM). Mixing then is even worse then mixing turrets since HM already cover 'all situations'
raven:pretty the same, cruise missiles is the multipurpose missile in this case.
Pan |
Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 13:28:00 -
[14]
If you are mainly mission-crunching, Pulses are probably your best bet, my guess is you are flying in, killing stuff at short to medium range and have a repairer fixing you up as you take hits on the way.
Beams are highly resource intensive, both to fit, and to fire - this means by the time you have a full rack of beams on board, there's no grid left to fit plates and repairers, and even if there was, you'd not be able to sustain cap to run the guns and your repairers for any length of time.
Beams are pretty much solely for sniping - you'll fit up with beam lasers, and the rest of your mod slots will be solely geared towards either making the guns better (sensor boosters, tracking computers, heat sinks) or keeping the cap alive (cap rechargers, cap power relays) - you will fly with no tank at all, but this isn't a problem because you will be out at long range.
Ignore anybody that tells you to mix guns - just because they can complete a mission with a badly fitted ship, does not mean it is a good ship - they are completing the mission despite their fitout not because of their fitout.
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.16 12:12:00 -
[15]
Actually ... the people you should ignore are the ones who tell you that you have to do things you can't do and that you must change what is working for you.
Read what everyone has to say and then keep that in mind as you fit and fly your ship.
Each of us has a specific set of skills, funding and friends at any one point in time.
Putting all crappy guns on a ship simply for the sake of conformity is stupid. Often times, a new player can't fit/afford a set of matching weapons. Either the good weapons take to much power or they don't have the money to buy that many for them to fit a full set.
You end up having to choose between mixing weapons, fitting all crappy ones or leaving slots blank.
I fit the best weapons I can up to the power grid limitations of my ships - then I fill in what's left with whatever I can fit. That isn't to say I put on 1 really good gun and a bunch of crappy ones but I try and fit as many good guns on as I can.
If you forgo any long range guns - you forgo the opportunity to hit your enemy at long range.
If you forgo any short range guns - you forgo the opportunity to hit your enemy if they have a high transversal velocity.
Also, if you just do what the EVE Dogma says and don't experiment on your own ... you won't learn whether the dogma is correct. By experimenting with various fittings you'll learn about the different weapons and what they can do and what they can't. This may well cost you some ships but you'll understand more about the game than if you just do what someone told you to do on the forums.
Most fittings are circumstantial. Something that may work well in one situation is horrible for another. Most people will agree that there is a big difference in fitting for PVE and fitting for PVP. Fittings that help you succeed against NPC's will get you killed against live players. Fittings that help you contend with live players - are sometimes inefficient or can result in your getting blown up against NPC's.
The only way you are REALLY going to learn what works and what doesn't ... is to try it out.
If you just do what people tell you to do on the forums - yes - you may succeed in those instances where what they told you to do actually fits the situation you are in - but you won't know why ... or at least won't know why as well as you would if you experimented with things on your own.
Fitting all one type of weapon presupposes the ability to keep your enemy at a certain range where those weapons are most effective. If you can do that - that's great.
If you lack the ability to do that you can end up in a situation where you can't hit them at all.
If you are in PVP with some guy who can keep you at his range and you can't keep him at yours - then you better hope that his range isn't within that of the warp disruptors and webbifiers it probably is or you're dead anyway.
Read the forums. Experiment with your modules. Learn how things work. Make use of your knowledge. Fit your ship as best you can for the situation you THINK you are going to be in.
I have a number of alts of various SP Levels. I do not fight them all the same way. I fit their ships and fight there ships as is appropriate for what I'm trying to do with that particular character, in their particular ship, right at that moment.
If I'm having trouble doing what it is I want to do - then I look at what's going wrong and change.
Don't just do something because that's what all the vets on the forums say. Most posts are short and simple - which means they are incomplete. The real world and the real game don't lend themselves to short, simple answers. It's always more complicated than that.
Some posts are better than others though. If you read a post that says WHY you should do something rather than "Do this noob! Anything else is stupid," those are a lot more valuable as they'll give you more insight into WHEN what they're saying is good advice and when what they're saying just isn't practical for YOU.
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Falka Lakadaka
BakaLakadaka Street
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Posted - 2008.03.16 12:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Usagi Toshiro
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Originally by: Usagi Toshiro
I use both types of lasers. I run a split of 3 and 3 on my BC for missions (PvE).....
NO!!
Stop that right now and just fit 6 pulses or beams. You are gimping your setup doing this.
Please, stop being a noob and do better.
See here for clarification...
DONT MIX GUNS!
While my mixed setup is still fairly new, it has been working fine so far. I feel that modifying ranges with crystals isquick and I mentally know the ranges for both gun types with each crystal so I can modify them on the fly. I haven't encountered a PVE scenario where this has gotten me into trouble, but I'm sure there may be a time where that happens as with anything. The two particular guns I am using have identical DPS with my skills, so there's no 'nerf' in that dept.
I feel that having the pulses (falloff 4,600m) gives me more of a punch solo against frigates. Yes, my drones usually handle them, but it's nice to have something more if the drones aren't cutting it. The beams have a falloff of almost 10k, making them ineffective against close targets. I also run a malkuth heavy launcher with mission specific ammo to pack a wallop.
I'm not sure why you're referring to falloff to determine how much 'punch' you have or how well you can hit close in targets.
What you're interested in is tracking. The reason the bigger guns can't hit close up targets is because those targets orbit you and the big guns can't track them.
Falloff on the other hand determines how much damage you will do if your target is outside your optimal range and you get a hit (after tracking is taken into account). At Optimal range you can do 100% of your potential damage, at optimal + fallof you do approx 50% of that damage and it rapidly drops to 0% at Optimal + 2x falloff. Having 2 different falloff ranges nerfs your DPS as some guns can hit and others can't.
I'd listen to Billy - he's been around a while and knows his stuff. As you move to bigger missions, the maximum DPS becomes critical. You can't get maximum DPS on to a target without settling on a single gun type. In PvP it's just as critical to maximise your DPS on to a single point in space, with the same tracking, range and falloff.
The only times you would mix weapons is if the hardpoint fitout of your ship requires it. i.e. you have no more turret slots and have a missile launcher slot available.
Cheers
Falka
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1. Read the Guides Sticky
2. ????
3. Profit |
Allvan Harl
TSB - HALO
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Posted - 2008.03.16 14:38:00 -
[17]
I agree with Aaron Ravenwood. Fit what you want and learn in your own fashion. If what you are doing works for you, great. If not, you'll find out soon enough.
Don't spend all your time following what everyone else says to do. You'll just end up another one of the lemmings, following the crowd, doing what everyone else is doing. There's a big difference between fitting your ship with a killer pve or pvp setup and knowing why that setup is a killer pve or pvp setup. Following the advice everyone tries to force down your throat does not lead you to fully understanding why and how this game works.
And besides, there are enough people playing this game, and enough variations on a ship's setup, and enough variations of an individual's money and skills and chosen system/mission, that you'll never arrive at a perfect consensus of how to fit your ship.
And if you do manage somehow arrive at a perfect consensus, and everyone flies that exclusively, some pirate will examine said setup, find a week spot, make a change to their ship to get the upper hand in battle, and then all the little lemmings will be helpless not only because they now have a weak setup, they don't know why it's weak or what to do about it.
And for those of you who do have good advice to give, you need to make sure you not only give said advice but also explain WHY it's good advice. If not, you're just another veteran who's out slapping people's hands because they don't fly like you do. Shame on you for failing to teach WHY some ideas work and others don't.
To answer the original post's question - sorry dude, haven't a clue. I fly Caldari and use hybrids.
To answer the advice that you fit weapons of the same distance: when up against a target, you want to inflict as much damage as possible in as short a time as possible. The name of the game is kill. If you have 6 guns, and 2 can hit in the range of 0-20km, 2 can hit at 20-40km, and 2 can hit at 40-60km, your target it going to be in one of those ranges and hence only 2 of your guns will be able to score hits. The other 4 will be getting no hits or weak hits. Rather than manage multiple targets at different ranges to keep all 6 guns working, it's better to get all 6 guns at one range and keep your current target at that range with the use of microwarp or afterburner. In the case of sniping, it's about keeping away from your target period.
Generally, if you take the route of managing multiple targets at different ranges, you're going to run into a swarm that will overwhelm you and you won't be able to reduce the number of targets fast enough before (1) they all close in or (2) your looking at flames and sparks and parts flying off your ship.
I took the multiple range route and when I got into some higher missions, I had problems with a group of 5-6 rat getting close and I couldn't thin the herd. They would pound on me and I'd warp out, repair, go back, kill one, repeat. It proved to not be beneficial. I went to keeping guns at the same range and when the battle started, pop goes one rat, pop goes another rat, pop, pop, pop. They dropped fast because the rats could not withstand the withering fire of multiple guns all getting great hits at once.
I hope this helps you newer folks. The recommendation is to keep your guns at one range and manage that range, not letting any rats in closer than said range. But I suggest you fit a ship with everything at different ranges and try some missions, then fit them for all the same range and try again. You'll see why.
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Hippy Dave
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.17 03:07:00 -
[18]
Having little to no experience in proper PvP i will bow to the general consensus that fitting all weapons of one type is indeed the best bet. But for missioning i dont agree.
I Have tried running lvl3s with an all pulse setup, and it isnt as effective as a hybrid setup i usually run.
4 Beams, 2 pulse, hvy missile launcher.
Its all very well saying things like 'get a friend to rep you and get to optimal range' or 'use an AB to keep at optimal range' but in missions you get wildly varying types of targets, and yes i always check eve-survival but its often not 100% accurate and many missions have random spawns which cannot be 100% predicted seemidly
If you fit all Pulses on a BC for example you are not appreciably faster than a decent BS even with an AB to close range rapidly and while your trying to get to 20km range you will get chewed up from 80km onwards.
If you fit all beams then those pesky elite frigate spawns will ignore your shots and close very fast on you, even webbed they are very tough to hit with beams and pulses provide a decent backup for anything that gets past beam range.
If i wasnt solo then id fit all one type, but solo id advise a 80/20 mix of beams/pulses personally (on a BC)
And the dont mix guns thing surely applies more to mixing different types of guns (EG hybrid and lasers)?
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Pan Dora
Bears Inc
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 06:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood
Read what everyone has to say and then keep that in mind as you fit and fly your ship.
A good advice. Sad its contradictory with what yu say just before it.
Quote:
You end up having to choose between mixing weapons, fitting all crappy ones or leaving slots blank.
And the vets that say "dont mix guns" several times pointed the reason why the 'crappy ones' work better then mixing weapons. This 'crappy' guns have less range and damage mod, but better tracking and rate of fire.
Quote:
Most people will agree that there is a big difference in fitting for PVE and fitting for PVP.
The arguments to say that are the inneficience of ewar in PVE and the limited artificial 'inteligence' of the rats.
Quote:
Read the forums. Experiment with your modules. Learn how things work. Make use of your knowledge. Fit your ship as best you can for the situation you THINK you are going to be in
Just remenber to put your conclusion in the rigth perpective. Several time we see someone saing "Im doing fine, I can do X withouth trouble" when in fact he is using more resurces then needed (e.g. bigger ship, expensive modules, more time) to acomplish the same goal.
Pan |
Tchell Dahhn
Deny Reality
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Posted - 2008.03.19 13:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Fine... Don't listen to the guy who has been-there-done-that with the lasers...
You should have read - he's doing PvE... We all know mission-runners don't need to do heavy damage. If they get into trouble, they can just warp to station and start the mission over.
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.19 14:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aaron Ravenwood on 19/03/2008 14:47:56
Originally by: Pan Dora
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood
Read what everyone has to say and then keep that in mind as you fit and fly your ship.
A good advice. Sad its contradictory with what yu say just before it.
Yeah I can see where it looks contradictory but it isn't. I could have rephrased it "Read what everyone has to say but ignore them when they tell you to do things you simply do not have the skills/money/experience to do".
Originally by: Pan Dora
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood
You end up having to choose between mixing weapons, fitting all crappy ones or leaving slots blank.
And the vets that say "dont mix guns" several times pointed the reason why the 'crappy ones' work better then mixing weapons. This 'crappy' guns have less range and damage mod, but better tracking and rate of fire.
Fitting all crappy guns leaves you with - all crappy guns. It doesn't matter what their rate of fire is if they can't reach the target or do it any damage when they do.
Take Hybrid weapons. If you want to play close and orbit - then you want Blasters. You do NOT want those crappy little 75mm Rail guns. They don't have the tracking speed of the blasters and they don't do the damage of the 125 or 150mm Rails. They leave you with all the disadvantages of a rail gun and none of the advantages. You are A LOT better off putting on as many 150's as you can - then putting on as many 125's as you can - and only as a last resort to keep from having a blank slot - putting on 75's.
If you are fitting rails - it is because you are PVE'ing and want some range between you and the rats. You'd be a lot better off with just one 150 than 3 75's - as you can kite the rats behind you and kill them as they come up with that 150 whereas the 75's don't have the range to keep you safe from their fire. But ... if all you can fit is one 150 but could put on one or two 75's, sure, what the heck, don't leave the slots empty.
But - if you can fit a 150, a 125 and a 75 - then do that. The 150 will do most of your killing, the 125 will help and - the 75 is better than nothing.
It depends on what tactics you are using. At least with low level missions - the best tactic I have found - is to agro the rats, and kite them behind you, especially if you're in a Frigate.
I see people here whining about "When Worlds Collied" and think ... you're just not using the right tactics buddy. If you have a good AB and you're faster than the rats with 150mm Rails and Iridium Ammo - you can kite the rats and pop them at your leisure. It doesn't matter how many there are - they can't touch you. I've flown that mission without hardly getting my shields nicked.
But - if I tried to fly that mission with 3 75's ... the 75's would bring me closer to their range - and that's not what I want. I want to stay as far away from them as I can. Thus I fit 150's until I can't fit any more - then I fit 125's if I can and maybe put on a 75 to keep from flying with an empty slot.
Mostly I can't fit all 150's. Usually it's more like a 150, 2x125's and my salvager.
If the essence of your tactic - is to stay away from them and destroy them as they come up - you don't want any more crappy little short range guns than you can avoid - and - dropping down from your long range guns to something small - AND UNDERMINING THE VALIDITY OF YOUR BASIC TACTIC - just because some guy on the forums said "don't mix guns" - is stupid.
What people really should say is - Don't Mix Tactics.
Understand what it is you are trying to do and equip the best stuff you can for that tactic.
If I was going to fight battleships with a frigate ... no ... I don't think I'd be trying to out range them.
But if the enemy consists of a bunch of crappy little Frigates - with crappy little guns - then I'm going to put on as many big guns as I can, fly as fast as I can - and blow them up from beyond their range.
150's and 125's contribute to that tactic. 75's ... fill a slot.
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