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Daeva Vios
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Posted - 2008.03.14 00:52:00 -
[1]
Hello everyone. Over the past couple months, I've been working on creating a credit reporting/ratings system. I have mentioned it here and there, but I haven't wanted to say anything about the system itself since it wasn't done. I'm happy to say now that the report system has completed the final part of phase one revisions and we're ready to advance into active operations.
Now I'd like to take some time to explain who we are, what this system is, what we track, who we work with, what this means to you, and why you should trust us.
Who We Are
In EVE, NECB is comprised of me running the business end of it. Takimi Star and Cogwheel, two relative unknowns, have provided me with invaluable insights into specific aspects of the system. With current public opinion toward credit reports and ratings, I feel it's safest to limit exposure to unknown factors and as such I will be handling any proprietary information. Helping on my end is my fiancee, who does not play EVE but is quite interested in the project and knows how to do things with Excel that make me look like a joke.
What is the System and What Do You Track?
In the introductory phase of our operation, all that we are providing to banks is information on what a person's loan history looks like. This will include what banks a person has taken out loans from, whether the loan has been paid off or not, and whether the person is in default.
Who Do You Give Information To?
All of the information we gather will be made available exclusively to the banks participating in NECB's reporting program upon request. In the event that an individual defaults on a loan and the bank reports the individual's refusal to pay, the defaulter's name will be made available to the public, no other details.
What Does This Mean To Me? (aka the "why should I care?" part)
What this means for you is that, should you ever take out a loan, your information will be recorded with us. That information will remain secure and private to the best of NECB's ability until you decide to break confidence. Currently, that's it. There are greater plans for the future...but that will be saved for later.
Why Should I Trust You?
I could say "that's up to you" but I'll give you a brief history and a few reasons to help you decide. First of all, I've been playing since 2004. Until 2006 I was a pirate/pvper under the name of Azellon. In 2006 I created this character as a mining/trading alt to support my PVP habit. It took slightly under 6 months and a 40m isk loan from Azellon before Daeva became my main, and slightly under a week to sell Azellon once that transition occured. The cash infusion from the sale guaranteed that all of my needs will be met for the foreseeable future, since I have multiplied that amount several times over.
I now want to contribute to this game by building something that will last. I see a lot of potential in the player-run market, and it's my goal to provide a measure of additional security and liquidity to the markets. I think a credit rating/reporting system won't fix every problem, but it will fill a hole. I have no unrealistic expectations that I can see, and I'm more in love with the game now than I was when I started in 2004 so I'm not going anywhere.
Final Words and Future Plans
I don't have much more space, so I'll keep this brief. My plan for the immediate future is to work out a credit ratings system that overcomes at least some of the unique challenges created by EVE's lack of a legal system. It's my hope that this credit ratings system will provide a good overall judgment of whether a person is reliable or not.
On a final note, I do not expect this reporting/rating system to eliminate scams. Despite my personal opinions to the contrary, I am happy from an objective viewpoint to see more credit reporting agencies pop up, even if they are run by banks. It can only benefit the community to have further transparency in our markets.
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Hexxx
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Posted - 2008.03.14 01:10:00 -
[2]
Get a website up.
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Daeva Vios
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Posted - 2008.03.14 01:22:00 -
[3]
Oh yeah, we're working on that one too 
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Kushion
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Posted - 2008.03.14 04:45:00 -
[4]
Oddly enough, after hearing Ricdic talk about this on TS I've got a much higher opinion of the whole credit report thing. It'll be intersting to see how this turns out, and how it affects the market. Good luck!
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Taggart Transdimensional corporation - | Capitalism | Objectivism | 0.0 | No taxes | No mandatory ops | Join channel TAGGART for more |
Daallie
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Posted - 2008.03.14 05:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Daallie on 14/03/2008 05:47:52
I also have a question as to limitations and requirements of
who can report?
a bank to have access to your information?
How will you make money? Obviously this will take a lot of your time so will you charge fees? It seems that would be completely understandable compensation for your time and efforts.
Excellent job, I am glad to see someone really moving into this idea. I hope you pioneer a long list of further Credit Reporters.
Dynasty Corporation |
Daeva Vios
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Posted - 2008.03.14 06:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 14/03/2008 06:05:38
Currently, we are judging demand for the service and hopefully sparking interest. I personally look at this as something of a beta version, where we provide the most basic of services we could provide (a report) and receive feedback from our customer base (the banks and their customers) free of charge.
If at some point the work load becomes too strenuous and the popularity of the service is booming, we may discuss charging a fee. In any event, this fee would be very low and likely just be used for providing the more advanced services we plan on offering further down the line.
I have already been in contact with every bank that has posted here on these forums about our system. My recommendation to you would be to have your official representative contact me in-game and we can flesh out the precise details.
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EBANK Ricdic
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Posted - 2008.03.14 06:43:00 -
[7]
As Kushion said, we had a chat about this in the Business Workshop Hexxx started. The crucial factor was that a credit bureau wouldn't be there to remove requirements to credit check a person yourself. It would be there as another tool to check up on a person.
It should be used in conjunction with existing tools and search options to help give a good picture on the applicants prior loans/credit histories and how they were handled.
I think it's a fantastic idea and frankly out of everyone looking to create them I would want Daeva running up the project. He has been with the Eve community for a long time vocal, and never asked for anything
http://www.eve-bank.netPlease visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url] |
Treelox
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Posted - 2008.03.14 07:40:00 -
[8]
I authorize EBANK officials to use my EBANK credit history for use in any beta services with NECB they wish to try.
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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
FastLearner
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Posted - 2008.03.14 07:50:00 -
[9]
I haven't had time to review any of the documentation on this yet. I'm not opposed to it in theory, however:
1. Certainly as far as Fury Bank is concerned, should we opt-in to this then our membership would not be backdated: i.e. previous loans would not be disclosed (unless authorised/requested to do so by the borrower). All previous loans were made on the basis that there'd be no disclosure to any third-parties without the consent of the borrower, other than in the event of default.
2. I'd need to review what information was being saved/passed on before determining how useful this would be. Knowing that someone had a loan (without knowing the amount) could be more harmful than useful - as a 1 ISK loan which was repaid would be given the same weight as a 20 billion unsecured loan which was repaid. No doubt the detail of this is sitting in my inbox - just got to find time to read it :)
3. Irrespective of what else I decide, I'll happily pass on information on any loan defaulters along with any known alts of theirs. To date Fury Bank has had no defaults - but that may change very soon.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2008.03.14 09:13:00 -
[10]
I'll be honest, I don't think the benefits of this kind of thing are worth the time spent on it. However, it's not my time, it's yours and I have nothing against the thing so good luck to you. 
 Quote:
All of the information we gather will be made available exclusively to the banks participating in NECB's reporting program
Does this mean that people starting IPOs/issuing bonds will be unable to request thier credit rating from you to reveal to the public?
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2008.03.14 10:05:00 -
[11]
I love the theory and I appreciate the work you're putting into this. I have concerns that it will ultimately not prove very useful as most of the people applying for public money are A) those with no history for whom this does nothing and B) those with extensive histories known to MD in which case this simply confirms the obvious. Admittedly, there is a much smaller 3rd group, those with extensive histories unconnected to MD but I have trouble seeing how to assign a rating to such people. That said, simply because I can't figure out a good system doesn't mean it can't be done and if you do perfect such a system then perhaps credit will become as common in EVE as it is in the real world. That would indeed be a glorious new era....I tip my empty bottle of Scotch Whisky to you, sir, and wish you the best in this. We shall all be the better if it succeeds.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Riethe
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2008.03.14 11:43:00 -
[12]
Hi what's my credit score?
P.S. If you want a professional solution for your website, feel free to get in touch with me in game and we can exchange contact info.
I have reasonable rates, and I'll even discount you for the neat idea.
(It's hard to scam IRL, so save it, clowns.)
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 11:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Admittedly, there is a much smaller 3rd group, those with extensive histories unconnected to MD but I have trouble seeing how to assign a rating to such people. That said, simply because I can't figure out a good system doesn't mean it can't be done and if you do perfect such a system then perhaps credit will become as common in EVE as it is in the real world.
It's definetly a long term project but it has a lot of potential. EBANK alone have dealt with a lot of varied loans with all kinds of security forms etc. We could categorically list a pile of people who had an X amount unsecured loan, who repaid that loan in full, who met stated repayments etc.
Now, if someone loaned 10b off EBANK unsecured and repaid it in full. They then come to the public looking for a 10b loan. Surely, our credit rating showing full repayment (and no current debt) on an unsecured loan is a pretty good indicator.
However, I can see this being abused if someone has a 10b loan with EBANK repaid, and then issues a 20b bond, trying to use that 10b loan to win their argument and trick people into thinking they can be trusted.
Ultimately once again. This NCIB is being designed as another tool, one to check people's credit histories, nothing more. It won't tell you if Shadarle is a safe investment, or if Ufl has dodgy posts.
It will tell you precisely how much Shadarle has loaned in the past, precisely how often he made his repayments on time, how many late payments he had, whether the loan was secured, and the duration on the loan.
The rest should be your (the investor/loaner) responsibility. An ability to make an informed decision for or against investing based on all the other aspects PLUS the person's credit history.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.03.14 11:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Who Do You Give Information To?
All of the information we gather will be made available exclusively to the banks ...
I don't think banks should have access to all the information you collect. You should disclosse information based on requests. In addition, I strongly recommend you let individuals inspect their own credit report.
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
Jackie Fisher
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:02:00 -
[15]
Where do you get your credit data from? Presumably existing lenders. If so have many have you signed up to provide this input? Will they be expected to include in their T+Cs that they are supplying information on individuals to third parties?
Even with the major lenders supplying you information I have a suspicion that this will provide little protection to lenders - as Ricdic says they will still need to perform their own checks - but will provide an easy route for scammers to build creditability before they scam.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
but will provide an easy route for scammers to build creditability before they scam.
Or will provide a way for legitimate people to show their past credit history when applying for new credit.
I would recommend this data be available for anyone who requests it, on the condition that the loanee authorises the request. EBANK should not be able to request Jackie Fisher's credit history without consent by Jackie Fisher.
Now, if Jackie Fisher applies for credit from a financial institution or in the form of a bond/public loan, and denies consent to his financials to chosen individual/s then that alone would ring warning bells or make one believe Jackie is hiding something.
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Jackie Fisher
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
I would recommend this data be available for anyone who requests it, on the condition that the loanee authorises the request. EBANK should not be able to request Jackie Fisher's credit history without consent by Jackie Fisher.
Ok. That seems reasonable.
What counts as 'credit history'? I understand that to obtain a loan from EBANK amoungst other thinks I would need to supply my full API key. Not a problem with this as the choice is mine. However would credit history data supplied to a credit bureau include information obtained via the API such as trading histories, skills etc?
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Or will provide a way for legitimate people to show their past credit history when applying for new credit.
<... ...>
Now, if Jackie Fisher applies for credit from a financial institution or in the form of a bond/public loan, and denies consent to his financials to chosen individual/s then that alone would ring warning bells or make one believe Jackie is hiding something.
I can see that I just wonder how much of a two edged sword this will be for scammer rep building.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
What counts as 'credit history'?
I apologise to Daeva if I wasn't supposed to say this but the following is most of the data the banks would be providing to NECB >
Name:
Known Alts:
Amount Loaned (Total):
Amount Paid:
Amount Remaining:
Sched. Payment Frequency:
# of Payments Required:
# of Payments Made:
% Payments Made:
# of Payments on Time:
# of Late Payments:
% Payments Late:
# of Loans Requested (Total):
% of existing loan/s currently covered by collateral:
This is all NECB need to do their jobs. They may give ratings (I am unsure) however the true job of a credit agency is to provide data on how prior/existing loans have been handled.
Now you may be late on a payment. This doesn't mean you are a scammer. However if we saw a trend in this that showed (for example) almost every payment received late, then we may take under consideration that you have poor management skills or maybe even a lack of commitment to the loan. It's really up to NECB to provide the facts pertaining to your prior/existing loans, and allow you to forge a conclusion based on those facts.
Now, this could be extended to the public but then we enter a grey area where facts can easily be corrupted. This is why Daeva has focused on only allowing the banks to provide this data for now, to ensure the bureau holds onto it's accuracy. I see one potential issue that could arise from this. Lets say EBANK were to become a scam (not going to happen, just using an example). This would mean NECB would need to completely discredit the data they had on hand sourced from EBANK as there would be the possibility that we had planted erroneous data there in order to scam another bank etc.
I believe this is one of the reasons Daevo focused on choosing established trustworthy operations to submit this data.
Quote:
I understand that to obtain a loan from EBANK amoungst other thinks I would need to supply my full API key.
Your API isn't a requirement for an EBANK loan. We may request it, but you might pass for a loan without it (such as for a fully collateral secured loan).
Quote:
However would credit history data supplied to a credit bureau include information obtained via the API such as trading histories, skills etc?
That's a negative. NECB are only there to comment on the loan itself and how that loan was begun, executed and completed. They don't need to know your API, or reason for loan or anything like that. However, if someone "vouches"(offers to repay the entire loan in event of your default) then in theory they should have some sort of black mark on their name with NECB, however I am sure this is something that can be left until later to add to the mix as it further complicates issues and can take this discussion off-topic.
Quote:
I can see that I just wonder how much of a two edged sword this will be for scammer rep building.
I can't really see any potential negative results come of this. In order for a scammer to successfully scam, they would need to issue a loan with one of the banks. He would then need to repay the loan. He would then need to request a loan for "MORE" than his credit file advises he has dealt with. Again it comes into play where it's crucial that people continue to do financial checks on their fellow loan requestors.
I will give this example. Let's use Treelox as he has confirmed he has had prior loans with EBANK. Lets say EBANK took out a 1b loan with EBANK completely unsecured. He repaid this loan in full.
2 months later, Treelox wants to start a public IPO for 1b. Upon checking his credit file the loaner would see he has no outstanding loans (with the banks) and has succesfully repaid 1b, therefore would be quite confident that Treelox has no reason to scam for another 1b loan. He still should do some basic checks either way however. If Treelox was to request 2b, well the loaner would need to redetermine viability as credit file doesn't list that value at all.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 -
[19]
By the way. I don't know as much about Daeva's plans as he does (obviously) so I could be completely wrong in parts of my posts. I would love Daeva to correct any incorrect statements I have provided if possible
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Jackie Fisher
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.14 13:08:00 -
[20]
Thanks for the clarification about what information would be supplied. DonĘt see any problems with that.
Regarding scammers my concern is that this is a mechanism to cheaply buy reputation by ępurchasingĘ a good credit history by taking out an unnecessary loan just to pay it back on time. It would weed out the low end scammers who were too lazy/poor to set up a loan and cash flow the interest but not the more serious ones.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.14 13:43:00 -
[21]
Just remember it's only buying a reputation up to what is listed. Really anything beyond that is the loanee's responsibility to ensure it is being accurately researched.
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FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Just remember it's only buying a reputation up to what is listed. Really anything beyond that is the loanee's responsibility to ensure it is being accurately researched.
Yeah - plus they can do that already by running a bond/loan/IPO via the forums anyway.
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Jackie Fisher
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Just remember it's only buying a reputation up to what is listed. Really anything beyond that is the loanee's responsibility to ensure it is being accurately researched.
True but buying an x amount rep would only cost c.10% of that amount - good investment if you are a competent scammer.
Originally by: FastLearner
Yeah - plus they can do that already by running a bond/loan/IPO via the forums anyway.
Good point, just probably easier to set up a 'fake loan' rep boost than a 'fake IPO' rep boost.
I suppose only time will tell if the positives of a credit checking system will outweigh the negatives.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:46:00 -
[24]
Is my credit rating over 9000? 
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Cogwheel
Legio Eterna
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:36:00 -
[25]
API keys are something we might look into incorporating into the system (similar to social security numbers). Obviously it would be opt-in, but anyone willing to share their API key with us (and by "us", I mean that only Daeva would have access to that info) is inherently establishing a level of trust. It provides a "paper trail" if they do scam, linking them to alts etc. It could also give a jump-start to their credit report in the sense that we could compile some generic statistics about the player before they've even applied for any loans (much like the income/asset verification RL lenders do).
Again, this would be 100% opt-in and we would have to develop an extremely solid privacy policy, so it's probably a good ways off.
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Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2008.03.14 19:36:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 14/03/2008 19:38:45
I feel the need to state that this is very much a work in progress and we'll probably be tweaking and adjusting the system indefinitely. As stated in the OP, it is not intended to end scamming. Our goal with this is more to make sure that honest individuals are given greater opportunities.
The reports themselves are not very comprehensive, and we DO have plans to make someone's credit report available to them upon request. Right now, though, judging interest and the level of participation we can expect is our primary goal. We have many plans for the future. This introductory phase is going to be a very small part of the overall picture.
We do plan on having voluntary submission of API keys and having benefits attached to submitting your API key for our inspection. It would help us provide a more accurate rating if we were capable of looking over your personal financial history. Again, this would be 100% voluntary and would come with benefits, but there would be no penalty for those who chose not to submit their API key. In any event, this is not in the works for Phase Two and if and when we do go ahead with these plans, it will only be after extensive testing and verification by a trusted third-party that we're not gathering info we wouldn't need. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking for this information, and I'm certain lots of people wouldn't feel comfortable giving it.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 14/03/2008 19:38:45
I feel the need to state that this is very much a work in progress and we'll probably be tweaking and adjusting the system indefinitely. As stated in the OP, it is not intended to end scamming. Our goal with this is more to make sure that honest individuals are given greater opportunities.
The reports themselves are not very comprehensive, and we DO have plans to make someone's credit report available to them upon request. Right now, though, judging interest and the level of participation we can expect is our primary goal. We have many plans for the future. This introductory phase is going to be a very small part of the overall picture.
We do plan on having voluntary submission of API keys and having benefits attached to submitting your API key for our inspection. It would help us provide a more accurate rating if we were capable of looking over your personal financial history. Again, this would be 100% voluntary and would come with benefits, but there would be no penalty for those who chose not to submit their API key. In any event, this is not in the works for Phase Two and if and when we do go ahead with these plans, it will only be after extensive testing and verification by a trusted third-party that we're not gathering info we wouldn't need. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking for this information, and I'm certain lots of people wouldn't feel comfortable giving it.
Honestly, I would have liked to see more of a finished product before this post was made on the forums. Instead we get a "credit Bureau now open" when really it should be a "we are working on setting this up and hope to have a working product soon".
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Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way. |
Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:24:00 -
[28]
Well, again, the credit reports are a necessary aspect of the operation. By handling these reports and gathering the information contained within, we can provide a finished product to the banks. This finished product is a report on someone's loan history and should give the banks an idea of what to offer this person.
By posting this, we're letting people know what they're dealing with when they see a notice that their information is being given to us. This is the first finished product we can safely put out there, and as part of an ongoing process it's the first step in forming a larger credit report/rating.
In fact, it would have been handy in some ways to get more information out there earlier, to let people know that this was happening and begin harvesting data sooner. Still, waiting as long as we did ensured most questions about this phase could be answered fully and truthfully.
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Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
Otaku Invasion
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Honestly, I would have liked to see more of a finished product before this post was made on the forums. Instead we get a "credit Bureau now open" when really it should be a "we are working on setting this up and hope to have a working product soon".
I'm inclined to agree. "now open" rather implies that you're now open for business when really about all your open for is suggestions.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Cogwheel
Legio Eterna
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:29:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Cogwheel on 14/03/2008 20:30:18
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
I'm inclined to agree. "now open" rather implies that you're now open for business when really about all your open for is suggestions.
Of course, it really depends on who you think we're "now open" for... At this point we *are* starting to do business, we're just not ramped up to the publicly visible and established firm that we hope to develop over the coming months.
This is very much an evolutionary entity, so there's really not going to be one defining moment that we become "open" in the sense that you seem to be thinking.
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