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Harbinger vs Hurricane

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Kal'Kalagan Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.14 09:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 14/03/2008 09:45:26 I'm not usually a battle cruiser pilot, I generally fly Rapiers or Typhoons but I found myself in posession of a Hurricane and have been throwing it around in fights not particularly fussed if it went down. Generally I've been impressed nice damage with a full rack of 425mm II's and a decent dual rep tank with some hardeners and no plate. Not the greatest setup in the world thats for sure, but its what I had in my hanger at the time and its served me well for a few weeks in small gang warefare - the ship still being in one piece is always a good indication of that Last night I came accross a Harbinger and while I was sure if I fit specifically for a 1v1 with this ship then I'd have a decent chance of taking it down, but I was standard fitted and thought to hold the ship down long enough for my gang to make 2 jumps and finish the job. Boy was I wrong. I hit his armour and hit a wall while he systematically chewed through my dual rep tank like it wasnt even there. I had initially webbed him so he couldn't reapproach the gate so thinking range was an issue I MWD'd out of web range and started to orbit. Still no difference, I was still going down! By this time the first of my gang mates had entered system and were warping to the fight but I was about to hit structure and had to bail out at the last allowing the Harby to get away. Last I saw he had no armour damage and I was in structure before we both warped. Now I know I didn't have specific hardenered fitted for Amarr damage types and I had bararge loaded which probably wasnt the best. But still with a well skilled pilot I thought the fight should have been at least remotely even?? Agility and speed saved my hide as should be the case with Minmatar but I didn't have a hope in hell of winning the fight. Slight in-balance between two tier T2 BC's. Comments please.
Niffetin Omni Research	Posted - 2008.03.14 09:44:00 - [2] Harbi <3 --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive
Wideen Eon Project Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.03.14 09:52:00 - [3] I fly them both and I have to say that I'd pick the Harb anyday. I agree with you in your evaluation of the Hurricane's dmg output, but which unfortunately leads it to have a non-existing tank. So it's that usual weigh-off. I think the difference is that if fitted in the same way, i.e. all tank, the Harb would still be on top due to higher base dmg, which is an amarr strong point and which isn't one of minmatar's - all other things being equal. + like you said, you weren't fitted properly, and he might have been. Could be enough explanation. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:01:00 - [4] harb will pwn a cane any day at any range :) iv been flying cane for a while and i have alt whit allmost equal skills on the harby... 1vs1...harby pwned any fit i could think of on my cane :P harb does soo much more dps that now im training for it on this char aswell :D only 9 days to go untill i can use t2 med pulse... BC 5 ftw ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:08:00 - [5] Quote: harb will pwn a cane any day at any range :) As will a properly-fitted Drake.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:12:00 - [6] Hehe, Harbringers are awesome, but the situation isn't as impossible as you make it seem. You did a few mistakes there, honestly. One of them was trying to engage the Harbringer at range, which is a quite futile attempt; at any range outside of 2km it outdamages you by a hefty margin. Your only hope is loading Hail M and going for him point-blank. Secondly, tri-hardened tanks are good in general, but they have a few downsides. One is obviously EM resist; since they dropped the EM resists on armour in the patch, the 60% resist on Minmatar ships doesn't cut it so well anymore - in a tri-hardened tank, EM resist is going to be quite low. Plus, a tri-hardened tank has no damage mods (or no DC, which you probably do have otherwise you'd have exploded) which lower the damage up to a point where you don't stand much of a chance versus a Harbringer at any range. The 2x MAR II / 2x EANM II / DC II / Gyrostab II tank does much much better in the situation you described. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kal'Kalagan Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:22:00 - [7] With the Harbinger obviously so superior it just seems a litte odd that Amarr get a boost by lowering everyone elses EM resistances in the latest patch and a 25% tracking bonus in the one before. As I said my fittings meant that I had no chance of winning a 1v1 with that Harby but I should have at least been able to hold it down long enough for assistance to arrive from 2 jumps away. If a well skilled pilot flying a ship of the same class cannot even do that then somethings not quite right.
Serotta Ortot Equilibrium Inc. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:28:00 - [8] Haven't seen you in a Phoon ages Kal' "Agility and speed saved my hide as should be the case with Minmatar"... I'd venture a guess and say you were nano fitted, not resist fitted and as such 425's have notoriously bad tracking at speed. They're good for NPC'ing, not PvP.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Serotta Ortot Haven't seen you in a Phoon ages Kal' "Agility and speed saved my hide as should be the case with Minmatar"... I'd venture a guess and say you were nano fitted, not resist fitted and as such 425's have notoriously bad tracking at speed. They're good for NPC'ing, not PvP. He said he had a dual MAR setup. At any rate, run of the mill Hurricane, as long as you don't plate it, has decent agility and good speed (particularly when heated). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kal'Kalagan Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 14/03/2008 10:51:10 Originally by: Serotta Ortot Haven't seen you in a Phoon ages Kal' "Agility and speed saved my hide as should be the case with Minmatar"... I'd venture a guess and say you were nano fitted, not resist fitted and as such 425's have notoriously bad tracking at speed. They're good for NPC'ing, not PvP. Nope wasn't nano fitted at all, but then nor was it heavily tanked either. Originally by: Cpt Branko Use EANMs. They're practically necessary now (even more on non-Minmatar ships). Train EM armour compensation IV (I did in preparation for the patch). I think your right.

Firkragg PREDATORS OF DESTRUCTION	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:00:00 - [11] You were using ranged ammo while he was probabaly using short range ammo. Also i think you will find the benefit to the cane is the fact you were able to get out of range and escape when things looked bad.
Karyuudo Tydraad Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:09:00 - [12] No, that's pretty much gonna happen whenever you're not EM/therm super hardened (and then you get raped by anything not amarr). Dual rep tank doesn't work well against plated/hybrid tanked gank ships most of the time (everything amarr fly, because no cap/fitting room for dual rep). The Harb can either go full gank and melt you, or put up a solid tank and maintain good dps, or anywhere in between. Don't try to outrange Amarr, it's easy to get 20km optimal with scorch loaded in FMP, further with heavy pulse. Hurri's advantage is maneuverability. Plated Harb is slow as hell, especially without a MWD (which I think you implied somewhere in there). Feel the water pumping the harb @ 13km with barrage, and depending how it's going swoop in for the kill or bail a little into the fight, Minmatar style.
Sneer Quen Seven. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:23:00 - [13] check optimal and faloff for both amarr and minmatar ammo use new feature of eft / dps graph / you will see that harbringer melts below 1.5km using hails and you die when further than 2-2.5 km so either you are able to short to point blank or disengage otherwise you are dead p.s. similar slot layout means there is possible to use similar lowslot layout for comparison p.p.s. how about rigs - they can change outcome 1vs1 significantly ..... i like hurricane :-) but it does not mean that i fight everybody everywhere or i fight on anybody else terms if i have choice
Mister Xerox A Multitude of Blues	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:48:00 - [14] Edited by: Mister Xerox on 14/03/2008 12:53:53 Originally by: Kal'Kalagan I had initially webbed him so he couldn't reapproach the gate so thinking range was an issue I MWD'd out of web range and started to orbit. Still no difference, I was still going down! Therin lay your mistake... Harbis get a very sweet damage bonus, and can support a very, very solid tank. And even with pulses they can reach out a commendable distance, well beyond the effective reach of 425s with barrage. Now, yes, I do like my Hurricane, but it doesn't support a tank adequite to engage another BC like that, be it a Harbi or Myrm or even a Drake. All three support something a Hurricane does not: High resist tank and/or scary good repair/regen rates. Fit 650mm T2, MWD, a couple of T2 warp disruptors (24km), and a tracking comp or two, then some gyrostabs & speed/inertia mods in low. Oh, and next time... jump through the gate, don't just web him and wait for buddies. Keep him scrammed and force him to stick around as best you can, but don't close to web range. And use your drones! Chase the guy, give him a cycle of scram whenever you can, and wait for backup, because you are something he is not... much MUCH faster.
Sneer Quen Seven. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Sneer Quen on 14/03/2008 13:14:55 artillery within disruptor range for pvp? is it a joke ? hurricane's only advantage is gank ac setup long t2 amarr crystals will still make difficult situation with 20 km optimal and hurricane will not be able to tank that / over 500 dps at 20 km with max skill / either go point blank or leave - no other choice here
Gneeznow SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Sneer Quen Edited by: Sneer Quen on 14/03/2008 13:14:55 artillery within disruptor range for pvp? is it a joke ? hurricane's only advantage is gank ac setup long t2 amarr crystals will still make difficult situation with 20 km optimal and hurricane will not be able to tank that / over 500 dps at 20 km with max skill / either go point blank or leave - no other choice here 425 II is an autocannon not artillery
Sneer Quen Seven. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:58:00 - [17] but 650 T2 mentioned post earlier is not
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:03:00 - [18] Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 14/03/2008 15:03:53 Frankly I'd advise not to get near (like as in engaging) an amarr ship if you fly minmatar.
Julius Romanus Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:12:00 - [19] Harb/Cane as a few people have said (o/ branko) comes down to skills, and how you engage. Both put out quite a bit of dmg, but most harbs plate, or plate + single rep tank. Close range, as close as you can. Limits the dps difference, and exploits poor tracking on pulses. Its a good fight. Unless you try and barragecane it out. Scorch > barrage + a falloff rig or two(unless ship bonused as well)
Ichandasil Department of Defence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:17:00 - [20] Maybe I'm missing something, but I do not fly my 'Cane without two medium neuts equipped. Without cap that Harb would be severely crippled and you may not have been able to break his tank but you certainly would have been able to stay around long enough for your mates to get there.

Sionide Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Sionide on 14/03/2008 15:20:31 Worst advice given by Mister Xerox...arties? Anyways, Yeah, I have found a few harbs in my cane, it's a tough fight...as is drake and myr if they are heavily tanked. Some have suggested going within 2km of the harb and really that is the only choice (besides dancing at 12-15km with barrage and if losing pop mwd and warp away). The problem is that matar ships are really not designed for toe-to-toe action but more and more that is what has to be fought at the BC and higher levels, so load hail, pop mwd and web and try to slug it out (also depends what you have in your spare 2 high slots). The problem with our "speed" and "tracking" it's going to fail a lot at 2 km distance and any orbiting is probably going to push you out to 4-6 km, which gives the harb a better chance to also track you; or you have no chance of orbiting since you have each other webbed. Having said that, not sure if I have ever beaten a well flown harb in my cane, though I use t2 220mm, since it gives me more ammo = less load time, better tracking, as well as a bit more grid and cpu for other things. Yeah I run duel MAR and though you recover a lot it usually can not repair as much damage as you are taking (usually close but slightly under and hence you bleed to death).
xHalcyonx Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:15:00 - [22] Edited by: xHalcyonx on 14/03/2008 16:16:26 Victim: ** Alliance: NONE Corp: ** Destroyed: Harbinger System: Torrinos Security: 0.5 Involved parties: Name: xHalcyonx (laid the final blow) Security: 1.1 Alliance: NONE Corp: Lucian Alliance Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II Destroyed items: Medium Armor Repairer II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Conflagration M Conflagration M Conflagration M Conflagration M Conflagration M He had a dual rep tank + 3x HS II, though to be fair I was using Hail. I Had 2x MAR II, 3x Hards (expl, kin, therm), DCU II, 2x aux nano pumps, 1x projectile collision accelerator. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Sionide Edited by: Sionide on 14/03/2008 15:20:31 Worst advice given by Mister Xerox...arties? Anyways, Yeah, I have found a few harbs in my cane, it's a tough fight...as is drake and myr if they are heavily tanked. Some have suggested going within 2km of the harb and really that is the only choice (besides dancing at 12-15km with barrage and if losing pop mwd and warp away). The problem is that matar ships are really not designed for toe-to-toe action but more and more that is what has to be fought at the BC and higher levels, so load hail, pop mwd and web and try to slug it out (also depends what you have in your spare 2 high slots). The problem with our "speed" and "tracking" it's going to fail a lot at 2 km distance and any orbiting is probably going to push you out to 4-6 km, which gives the harb a better chance to also track you; or you have no chance of orbiting since you have each other webbed. Having said that, not sure if I have ever beaten a well flown harb in my cane, though I use t2 220mm, since it gives me more ammo = less load time, better tracking, as well as a bit more grid and cpu for other things. Yeah I run duel MAR and though you recover a lot it usually can not repair as much damage as you are taking (usually close but slightly under and hence you bleed to death). Arties cane are incredible ships, just not good solo unless you have a domination disruptor. I have flow an artie can for about 8 months, scored a bit over 200 kills with it without ever getting even close to half armor. Might soudn weirdo, but works very well. I just don tackle, its impressive how people don warp off even when not tackled, just because they don even think someone might not be carrying a point. But if you want to tackle, get a Dom point, put apropriated Warfare link and fly along a friend to ejoy a nice long range tackling capability. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Julius Romanus Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Ichandasil Maybe I'm missing something, but I do not fly my 'Cane without two medium neuts equipped. Without cap that Harb would be severely crippled and you may not have been able to break his tank but you certainly would have been able to stay around long enough for your mates to get there. Well you're missing a few things. First, harbs dont tank well actively; about 220dps w/ 2 reps 2 eanms and a dc. Even rigged thats not going to be much, so I dont understand the second half of your post at all. And second, 2 unbonused neuts arent going to cripple a(more likely) buffer tanked harbinger. Unless maybe he insists on running the mwd non stop while webbed or something.
Lalita Prestoc Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:43:00 - [25] Although it sounds strange, if you have a EANM tanked Hurricane the best way to beat a Harbinger is to keep 12-15km from it or right at the edge of web range, forcing it to use Scorch which is heavy EM weighted which is by far your strongest resistance. While your keeping range take out the medium drones to to cause a substancial damage loss. Then you just have to chip away with barrage and hope its cap/cap boosters run out. 3 EANM > 3 Actives unless you think its smart to have <15% EM resistance on shields and <60% on armour (bit high for minmatar armour obviously). Although a Hurricane without 1 or 2 gyros is a waste, rather have a Cyclone to max tank tbh.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Julius Romanus Well you're missing a few things. First, harbs dont tank well actively; about 220dps w/ 2 reps 2 eanms and a dc. Even rigged thats not going to be much, so I dont understand the second half of your post at all. And second, 2 unbonused neuts arent going to cripple a(more likely) buffer tanked harbinger. Unless maybe he insists on running the mwd non stop while webbed or something. Hes probably talking about capping out his guns which remains a possibility. if its enough to cap it out fast enough i am not sure as harbi is going to be injected. but in my experience if he gets you down to the point where your guns stop shooting once its very hard to keep guns running even with inject. it will at least cripple the harbis gank as it has to wait for next inject and reactivate guns. rinse and repeat.
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:20:00 - [27] When people say base damage, do they mean the damage the gun and a standard crystal does without the need for damage mods? Because if so, Amarr don't sound so bad as people make them sound. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?" "Guns... Lots of guns"
Julius Romanus Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Julius Romanus Well you're missing a few things. First, harbs dont tank well actively; about 220dps w/ 2 reps 2 eanms and a dc. Even rigged thats not going to be much, so I dont understand the second half of your post at all. And second, 2 unbonused neuts arent going to cripple a(more likely) buffer tanked harbinger. Unless maybe he insists on running the mwd non stop while webbed or something. Hes probably talking about capping out his guns which remains a possibility. if its enough to cap it out fast enough i am not sure as harbi is going to be injected. but in my experience if he gets you down to the point where your guns stop shooting once its very hard to keep guns running even with inject. it will at least cripple the harbis gank as it has to wait for next inject and reactivate guns. rinse and repeat. Lasers dont take THAT much cap. It's not easy to keep a cap boosted ship from shooting even with a 3x neut pilgrim. I'm not saying 2x neuts is a bad idea, but to think you're going to cripple a boosted ship to the point where it cant run its guns is a mistake.
SirDanceAlot Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Julius Romanus Lasers dont take THAT much cap. It's not easy to keep a cap boosted ship from shooting even with a 3x neut pilgrim. I'm not saying 2x neuts is a bad idea, but to think you're going to cripple a boosted ship to the point where it cant run its guns is a mistake. They do take THAT much cap. 3 neuts can keep approx half your guns offline tbh.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow When people say base damage, do they mean the damage the gun and a standard crystal does without the need for damage mods? Because if so, Amarr don't sound so bad as people make them sound. No, base damage is raw dps generated when trown at a 0% resistance target (like a hull without DC). ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough



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