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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.11 22:08:00 -
[31]
Quote: Edited by: McWatt on 11/04/2004 13:08:27
Quote:
I'm also probably the last Dev in EVE to try to convince to force the Carebears into 0.0 space, seeing that I'm probably the Dev that cares most about them. The major parts of the system that are actually visible to the user that I am involved in are nearly all PVE related, and as far as I'm concerned, PVP = griefing, and is not what EVE should be about.
this is what he said here i was hoping for some misunderstanding as well.
What is the big fuss? The question was answered with the developer with the most empathy to the intelligence/memory characters out there (i.e. those with terrible gunnery skills, who tend to do most mining and constructing). Thus he answered from his perspective: that in which PvP is one-sided, where one part has little to no ability to defend themselves.
While Devs need to watch their words, players need to watch how much they read into the Devs words. And how they react to them.
(btw, this post is directed at noone, and is merely a reaction against some of what I've read in the thred) --
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.12 07:17:00 -
[32]
Edited by: McWatt on 12/04/2004 07:19:03
Quote: What is the big fuss? The question was answered with the developer with the most empathy to the intelligence/memory characters out there (i.e. those with terrible gunnery skills, who tend to do most mining and constructing). Thus he answered from his perspective: that in which PvP is one-sided, where one part has little to no ability to defend themselves.
1. what s the fuss, you ask?
well, some players start to worry wether there is still a dev out there with some empathy for the guys with the gunnery skill.
2. ever wasted a thought on what your argument means when turned around? here s a hint:
production is one sided, as one part (the guy with the gunnery skill, this is) has little to no ability to compete with the other side!
so you re in favor of cheaper ship supply by NPCs to PvP players as well?
Quote: (btw, this post is directed at noone, and is merely a reaction against some of what I've read in the thred)
3. well, i m sorry, but PvP players might have the impression that PvP=griefing is directed at them.
it was a direct reaction to my proposal of moving Tech 2 production to low sec, to start to move ppl out from high sec. looks like we wont see that happening.
anyone still suprised that, in contrast to demands and logic, research agents have been limited to empire space?
anyone still suprised that lots of players are completly excluded from agent access by the security status bug?
anyone still suprised that, in contrast to what keeps being told, little has been done so far to move experienced players from high sec areas?
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.12 07:47:00 -
[33]
Yes. The game needs PvP. I would not play it if there was not a chance of PvP. I don't go looking for PvP but I my heart pounds at the thought that around every corner there might be someone who wants to blow my ship out from under me. And that's exciting. And I like it.
People who do not want any chance of PvP should stick to high security space and stay in the newb corps. Or play a different game like The Sims. What is the game without PvP? An NPC hunting game? A glorified chatroom? A mining and production game? There are other ways to get those things without playing Eve. Take all that and add PvP and you have Eve. Don't like it? Don't play.
Remember when you were a kid and you played fighting games at the arcade? If someone else walked up with a freakin quarter they could challenge you. And there was not a thing you could do about it (unless you wanted to PvP them in IRL). The only way around it was to play a single player game such as Pac-Man.
However, this is a stupid thread because it's just going to degrade into a "HEY YOU GRIEFER, YOU RUIN THE GAME FOR ME" thread. The original poster should know better.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Serge Tahlon
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Posted - 2004.04.12 08:23:00 -
[34]
now repeat after me:
Storm in a teacup. ~~ signatures ?! all they do is wasteing space... ~~ |
Jelerak
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Posted - 2004.04.12 11:10:00 -
[35]
There is more discussion of this topic here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=70540
and here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=72005
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Jelerak
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Posted - 2004.04.12 11:28:00 -
[36]
I'd like to add some comment here.
Since I started playing, I've been reading the ongoing discussions about pirating.
Despite many changes to the game rules over time, I've noticed some constants.
The non-violent players keep within the boundaries of the safe area.
The violent players get as close to that boundary as possible in an effort to attack the non-violent players.
So, it seems to me, it doesn't really matter how large the secure space area is, except as it affects the play experience of non-volent players.
And for them, it's better if it includes a larger area.
So the recent changes to the game allowing fairly dafe access to the stations in 0.1 to 0.4 are granting a more enjoyable game to those non-violent players.
And it really has no effect on the violent players, who continue to lurk at the outer boundary, gnashing their teeth and trying to get inside the gates to murder everyone.
Net effect on violent players: zero.
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.12 11:42:00 -
[37]
EVE without PVP = Dead meat in 2 months
PVP = griefing, is a very blunt and prolly the dumbest thing i ever heard. I guess its friefing when you pay your taxes two? :p
Well in a sertain way i guess it is. Anyone who gets killed would be griefed to a sertain extent. Seriously though, i am personally getting a little sick and f0cking tired of being called a griefer for killing people in a game after they filled my hide with flames and insults.
No matter how hard i try i just cannot seem to convince myself that pirating in any way leads to griefing..
Whenever you become 'griefed' in EVE, in whatever cercmstances and whatever the case, in a scenario where no exploits are used, being killed is purely and utterly your OWN fault.
What is being griefed? Being griefed in EVE is losing an amount of money (in the form of isk or items) that you were not prepared to lose or cannot afford to lose. If this does happen then that means you got stupid and went to places you shouldn't have or didnt the right amount fo precautions!
If you lose something you can afford to lose then pleaze, get less dence and realize that its not so bad, you can afford it, np just be more carefull next time. No need to flame, start little anti pirating threads all over and petition it 20 times just to make sure everyone knows your upset!
There is no such thing as griefing in EVE. Its either something you agreed to (the system beyond is outside concord patrols and might be dangerous, do you wish to proceed????) OR you just plain got stupid and did somethign without thinking.
Someone enlighten me as to how this can possibly be griefing?!
Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.04.12 11:48:00 -
[38]
Edited by: McWatt on 12/04/2004 12:01:05
Quote: And it really has no effect on the violent players, who continue to lurk at the outer boundary, gnashing their teeth and trying to get inside the gates to murder everyone.
Net effect on violent players: zero.
net effect on low sec space gate campers: devestating.
i guess you don t consider them violent players, do you?
(hint: the number of ppl in the "border" region has a net effect!)
Quote: now repeat after me:
Storm in a teacup.
very good analysis. this is exactly what PvP has developt to!
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 13:04:00 -
[39]
Quote: EVE without PVP = Dead meat in 2 months
Well that has to be the most stupid quote I've ever seen.
take a look at your map mate - press the show pilots in space button and you will see 80-90% of pilots are in safe empire space.
Remove PvP and eve will continue just with the fun of everyone being able to explore 0.0 space without getting ganked by a bunch of sad players.
Take a look at other games, humm UO for instance now after they introduced a non pvp area did that game die? no all that happened was the pvp area withered as all the easy marks went and had fun in safety and the game went from strength to strength.
Really, the more you shout about how PvP keeps eve going isn't going to make it right.
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Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 13:18:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Quote: EVE without PVP = Dead meat in 2 months
Well that has to be the most stupid quote I've ever seen.
take a look at your map mate - press the show pilots in space button and you will see 80-90% of pilots are in safe empire space.
Remove PvP and eve will continue just with the fun of everyone being able to explore 0.0 space without getting ganked by a bunch of sad players.
Take a look at other games, humm UO for instance now after they introduced a non pvp area did that game die? no all that happened was the pvp area withered as all the easy marks went and had fun in safety and the game went from strength to strength.
Really, the more you shout about how PvP keeps eve going isn't going to make it right.
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
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Garreck
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:06:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Quote: EVE without PVP = Dead meat in 2 months
Well that has to be the most stupid quote I've ever seen.
take a look at your map mate - press the show pilots in space button and you will see 80-90% of pilots are in safe empire space.
Remove PvP and eve will continue just with the fun of everyone being able to explore 0.0 space without getting ganked by a bunch of sad players.
Take a look at other games, humm UO for instance now after they introduced a non pvp area did that game die? no all that happened was the pvp area withered as all the easy marks went and had fun in safety and the game went from strength to strength.
Really, the more you shout about how PvP keeps eve going isn't going to make it right.
Wow. I'm not terribly familiar with too many other mmorpgs, but Eve's player driven economy DEMANDS pvp. I think that's why so many players are shocked at this dev's response. I should think that a developer of this game would be able to see that with so many of the produceable items being combat related, pvp is obviously a central theme.
I produce a fair amount of business through my pvp. I lose plenty of ships, and I destroy plenty of ships. I can think of two corporations whose business would suffer greatly if Blacksheep were not involved in pvp...and that's just corporations that WE buy replacement ships/components from. Not counting our many enemies, most of whom are larger than us and can afford to lose/replace a lot more stuff than we can.
It's been said a million times, but I guess I'll restate it. Without PvP, you will have a bunch of miners flooding the market with unusable minerals. Without pvp, ships will not get destroyed, components will not get lost, nobody will buy blueprints, nobody will need to produce anything. The economy will come to a standstill, and Eve will die. NPCs cannot pick up the burden of destroying enough ships...they're too dumb.
Eve would have to become an entirely new game for it to work without PvP, and the minute it becomes that kind of a game is the minute I stop playing. Can Eve survive without PvP? Perhaps...but I don't care to find out. I'm playing a game that is unlike anything I've experienced in PC gaming thus far, and I would be most displeased if it became something else...something mundane, something I can get from any other mmorpg.
Garreck Aeternus Crusade
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Mitchello
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:06:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Mitchello on 12/04/2004 14:12:28
Quote:
What i dislike is the whining, crying baby carebear "look ma, he took my stuff, BUAAAA"
You know, I've noticed that most of the whining, such as this thread, doesn't come from Carebears at all...
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:20:00 -
[43]
Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
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Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:25:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Aelius on 12/04/2004 14:35:43
Quote: Edited by: Mitchello on 12/04/2004 14:12:28
Quote:
What i dislike is the whining, crying baby carebear "look ma, he took my stuff, BUAAAA"
You know, I've noticed that most of the whining, such as this thread, doesn't come from Carebears at all...
whining me Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:26:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Aelius on 12/04/2004 14:32:07
Quote: Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
NPC spawns
Get serious... if you want single player games don't play MMORPGs Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Mitchello
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:31:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Mitchello on 12/04/2004 14:35:28
Quote:
eh? I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you meant by that line of "Smilies"
oh you edited it, I understand now
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The Colonel
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:31:00 -
[47]
Quote: Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
Shocking.
Forum |
Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:37:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Aelius on 12/04/2004 14:42:14
Let's keep on target guys. The discution is NOT about who is whining. It's about PVP and how it will effect EVE if it is nerfed even more.
i would also like to see a reply from Papa Smurf to clear out his statement.
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:38:00 -
[49]
Quote: Edited by: Aelius on 12/04/2004 14:32:07
Quote: Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
NPC spawns
Get serious... if you want single player games don't play MMORPGs
Er I never ever said I want a single player game, what I don't want is a bunch of anti-social losers spoiling my fun.
I'm all for a consensual PvP solution so the true PvPers can have their fun - I just don't think it should be forced on you.
Its only the really poor PvPers who like to take out mining ships and other equally 'hard' challenges that get upset by suggestions of consensual PvP
Oh and players do loose ships to the 0.4 NPC spawn so lots of the non-hardcore players would loose ships to NPC BS spawn.
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Mitchello
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:44:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Quote: Edited by: Aelius on 12/04/2004 14:32:07
Quote: Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
NPC spawns
Get serious... if you want single player games don't play MMORPGs
Er I never ever said I want a single player game, what I don't want is a bunch of anti-social losers spoiling my fun.
I'm all for a consensual PvP solution so the true PvPers can have their fun - I just don't think it should be forced on you.
Its only the really poor PvPers who like to take out mining ships and other equally 'hard' challenges that get upset by suggestions of consensual PvP
Oh and players do loose ships to the 0.4 NPC spawn so lots of the non-hardcore players would loose ships to NPC BS spawn.
true, you have a valid point. By entering 0.0 though you are giving your concent to PvP :)
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Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:45:00 -
[51]
Quote: Er I never ever said I want a single player game, what I don't want is a bunch of anti-social losers spoiling my fun.
Are you saying that the NPC pirates are not anti-social? That they wont destroy your ship?
or are you saying that other human brains are just too much for you to handle?
Getting around AI is easy. What is dificult is getting around another (inteligent) living beeing. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:48:00 -
[52]
Quote: By entering 0.0 though you are giving your concent to PvP :)
Yes thats valid as well - which suggsts that as 80-90% of players are in empire space the demand for PvP is not as great as some ppl would like to make out.
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Mitchello
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:48:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Quote: Er I never ever said I want a single player game, what I don't want is a bunch of anti-social losers spoiling my fun.
Are you saying that the NPC pirates are not anti-social? That they wont destroy your ship?
or are you saying that other human brains are just too much for you to handle?
Getting around AI is easy. What is dificult is getting around another (inteligent) living beeing.
huh, you know he asked a fair question, made a fair point, you could consider answering him in a fair and readable manner :) just a sugestion since I don't see how "or are you saying that other human brains are just too much for you to handle?" is anything but an insult :)
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Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:56:00 -
[54]
Quote: huh, you know he asked a fair question, made a fair point, you could consider answering him in a fair and readable manner :) just a sugestion since I don't see how "or are you saying that other human brains are just too much for you to handle?" is anything but an insult :)
It's not meant as an insult. Everyone knows that the AI is very easy to defeat. The thrill of having human opponents is the unpredictability of their actions, the possibility of beeing outsmarted. Don't take it as an insult please, because it wasn't meant to be one. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Aelius
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Posted - 2004.04.12 14:59:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Quote: By entering 0.0 though you are giving your concent to PvP :)
Yes thats valid as well - which suggsts that as 80-90% of players are in empire space the demand for PvP is not as great as some ppl would like to make out.
Most of the station services are in Empire Space, most of the demand and so on. As some people stated in this thread, they like PVP but they cannot afford it atm. Perhaps when PC stations come to play you will see a change in those 80% to 90%. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Garreck
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Posted - 2004.04.12 15:07:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Garreck on 12/04/2004 15:12:20
Quote: Garreck,
Total bull - If everyone wasn't afraid of being ganked in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there. more ppl would die to the BS spawn and thus ppl would still need to buy modules and ships.
I don't buy that lazy arguement for one minute
And I don't buy the lazy argument that "90%" of the Eve population is being bottled up in empire space by a handful of "griefers."
When I'm not in Pator, making trouble with minmatar terrorists, I'm in low security space (especially 0.0) Rarely do I run into pirates, unless it's pirates I'm looking for. When I do, I turn and fight. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. That's what insurance is for.
I'll edit your statement and get to the nub of the matter: "If people would learn not to risk more than they can afford to lose in 0.0 space more ppl would go out there." I strictly fly cruisers. Why? Because with insurance and minimal "work," I can lose a couple of cruisers a day and not feel the loss. But with a competent wingman, I can damn sure take any battleship in the game. Folks run around with more gear than brains, they lose it all, and come cry on the boards that PvP sucks. If I had an uninsured battleship, didn't read my map and walked into a blockade, lost all my stuff and never had a chance to fight...well, damn, that sure would suck. But it would be entirely my fault.
Garreck Aeternus Crusade
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck
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Posted - 2004.04.12 15:14:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Oh and players do loose ships to the 0.4 NPC spawn so lots of the non-hardcore players would loose ships to NPC BS spawn.
If Eve's history is any indicator, then you are dead wrong.
Players would whine that the NPCs are too difficult, and the NPCs would get nerfed.
Garreck Aeternus Crusade
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.12 15:29:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote: EVE without PVP = Dead meat in 2 months
Well that has to be the most stupid quote I've ever seen.
take a look at your map mate - press the show pilots in space button and you will see 80-90% of pilots are in safe empire space.
Remove PvP and eve will continue just with the fun of everyone being able to explore 0.0 space without getting ganked by a bunch of sad players.
Take a look at other games, humm UO for instance now after they introduced a non pvp area did that game die? no all that happened was the pvp area withered as all the easy marks went and had fun in safety and the game went from strength to strength.
Really, the more you shout about how PvP keeps eve going isn't going to make it right.
Please take 5 minutes to think before you say something stupid...
If you would, you would realize that no PVP means no renewing market especially for bships, also means no renewing market for minerals....and that pretty much relates to player trading aswell...
get it? no?
Kthxbye
Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 16:58:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Please take 5 minutes to think before you say something stupid...
If you would, you would realize that no PVP means no renewing market especially for bships, also means no renewing market for minerals....and that pretty much relates to player trading aswell...
get it? no?
Kthxbye
And if you thought about it a bit you would know that there are plenty of other games out there which don't have PvP but do support player economics.
Also please note I've not come down against PvP between consenting players, If I've given that impression then I apologise but I really can't buy the fact that not being able to gate camp and not being able to blow up the ships of people who don't want to get into the whole PvP thing will 'destroy' the Eve economy.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.12 17:05:00 -
[60]
Quote:
If Eve's history is any indicator, then you are dead wrong.
Players would whine that the NPCs are too difficult, and the NPCs would get nerfed.
And I would say the Devs made a big mistake when they toned down the 0.1 to 0.4 spawn
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