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Bloodveil Sermon VIII - God = Death.

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Andreus Ixiris Heretic Logistics DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.17 18:43:00 - [61] So I heard there aren't any more nihilists - they didn't think it was worth it anymore. ----- "I am prepared to meet my maker; whether my maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter."
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.17 19:30:00 - [62] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf If your going to use the Apocryphon in this discussion then the entire thing will devolve into an argument regarding prophesy and faith. I won't discuss such things here as they can lead nowhere. If you must include such arguments in an open discussion then you should explain, plainly and logically, how they apply to those not of your beliefs. Be carefull with pre-concepts Mr. Blackleaf. Bloodveil is a cult and it's holy book the Apocryphon was into the discussion since it's first post. This is a Sermon. Let me also point that the Apocryphon also states that 1+1=2 and it doesn't make any less plausible or scientifuic because of it. The times where Faith and Science could not be combined is far over and I won't allow this sort of primitive judgements to cloud the matter of the subject. But, again to the point: Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The extermination of the lower classes will simply create a new lower class, which, thanks to the nature of human competition, will soon find themselves just a impoverished as the those they have succeeded. The universe is indeed abundant, there are enough resources for all, but we don't all have everything we need. That is not because there are too many people, it is because of the nature of the people, we wish to be in control of as many resources as possible and we would sooner see said resources rot than give them away without benefit. In short it would be a mass-slaughter of potentially worthwhile people and people whose descendents may be of worth with no benefit and great detriment. The thing you described is called cycles of evolution. It's obvious that a base must exist, you fail into addressing my point at the second page: this base can be wealthy, educated and enjoy from their share in the universe as they well-deserve. I take this for example inside my own Estates and vessels: From the silk gallente slave serving my breakfast, to the highest specialist engineer, there are no signs of poverty in any levels. It is my interest to keep the system this way. They work better, they perform their functions with energy and the best of interests. So I believe I will have to disagree with the matter of resources. I'll use myself as a proven living example of it. It's no secret that I can be considered a relatively wealthy person, as it is no secret that I have no detriment of sharing, moving, and using this weath to benefit or please the ones that I consider worth having it. To each faction ship I have given, the Universe has returned to me in double, to each billion, another billion was made. I can garantee to you that abundance only produces abundance and that stagnation will only produce stagnation. Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Avel Kereka The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.03.17 21:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Revan Neferis Before addressing the issue itself, let me remind you that you have commited a crime of heresy against Amarr authorities by bringing to public a text of the Holy Apocryphon. The Inquisition will need to go after CONCORD then, since they made it public knowledge. Originally by: Revan Neferis To the point: It's not a matter of confusion, the text is clear on this regard. The Universal force is one in all. Each individual share the same presence, where divinity and man are one. The Apocryphon calls to it. To every God to rise and assume it's rightfull place as rulers of it's own life and Universe. Dangerous, indeed. A path that not many would be ready to walk. The texts are not heretical Mr. Kereka. The texts shows us the way of Amarr. Flesh in divinity, Gods among men. The banishment of the texts were the only heresy. I think you're missing the point of what it means to be Amarr. If we're all to rise up and claim "God-given godhood" then this book of yours justifies the Minmatar uprising, it justifies every act of rebellion, every destabilizing force that flies in the face of what our ancestors built. You sound like a Blood Raider crossed with a Star Fraction pilot--you've forgotten what it is to be submissive to the greater good, mired in your own vice and self-importance as you are.
Keerie Jeanmot Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.17 21:36:00 - [64] Originally by: Avel Kereka I think you're missing the point of what it means to be Amarr. If we're all to rise up and claim "God-given godhood" then this book of yours justifies the Minmatar uprising, it justifies every act of rebellion, every destabilizing force that flies in the face of what our ancestors built. You sound like a Blood Raider crossed with a Star Fraction pilot--you've forgotten what it is to be submissive to the greater good, mired in your own vice and self-importance as you are. The Apocryphon: Ancient texts that some believe were once part of the holy scriptures of the Amarr religion. These texts are considered heretical by the Amarr clergy and anyone founding preaching or distributing them is persecuted relentlessly. You're not making sense. Why a loyalist preaches the Apocryphon in public? Futhermore, are you really trying to convert the Sovereign? What an absurd.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.18 03:46:00 - [65] Originally by: Revan Neferis Be carefull with pre-concepts Mr. Blackleaf. Bloodveil is a cult and it's holy book the Apocryphon was into the discussion since it's first post. This is a Sermon. Let me also point that the Apocryphon also states that 1+1=2 and it doesn't make any less plausible or scientifuic because of it. The times where Faith and Science could not be combined is far over and I won't allow this sort of primitive judgements to cloud the matter of the subject. Wow... no really wow. Faith and science combined. Of course it doesn't bother you that faith actually requires a lack of evidence. If evidence exists then it's not faith is it? That's not to say there is anything wrong with faith, I have faith in a few things myself. But I don't pretend, nor am I deluded enough to think, that what I believe is undeniable truth and should be accepted immediately by others. Originally by: Revan Neferis you fail into addressing my point at the second page: this base can be wealthy, educated and enjoy from their share in the universe as they well-deserve. No, they can't I pointed that out, along with the reasons. I addressed your point, you failed at addressing mine. Originally by: Revan Neferis I take this for example inside my own Estates and vessels: From the silk gallente slave serving my breakfast, to the highest specialist engineer, there are no signs of poverty in any levels. Your a capsuleer, your staff are hardly likely to be at the bottom rung of society. Very poor example. Of course if your wealthy and powerful enough to hire and/or enslave everybody in the cluster then, and only then, does this example stand as worthwhile. Originally by: Revan Neferis I can garantee to you that abundance only produces abundance and that stagnation will only produce stagnation. Are you going to just make ridiculous comments or are you going to back things up with logic? I'm beginning to think your words here hold no value for anyone but yourself, you seem to exist in your own little world, ignorant of reality. Your slaves and staff are fine so poverty can be avoided? Quotes and references from a "holy" book no one beyond your cult has access to. Referring me back to your text when you seem to have not read mine. Faith and science combined. Seriously I really am going to have to write me a "holy" book one of these days, they seem to be all the fashion. If I include 1+1=2 on a page I can even state that it's science. If your going to enter into discussion with people beyond Bloodviel your going to have to do a lot better than this if you wish to be taken seriously. If you don't then I have to wonder what your motives are for posting here at all, perhaps you simply enjoy looking at your own text.
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.18 04:12:00 - [66] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Are you going to just make ridiculous comments... No, as you just placed yourself into the very cast you judged unworthy of being here. With this, I bid you adieu. Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.18 06:44:00 - [67] When you have to defend a sermon, you have alreadyy lost the meaning of it. That or this is not a sermon. ----
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.18 12:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit When you have to defend a sermon, you have alreadyy lost the meaning of it. That or this is not a sermon. What you call defense, I call debate, something that I enjoy very much, no matter the subject or circunstance. This said, as the next Sermon for the coming week is already writen by our Priests I'd like to close this by welcoming the new Initiates that arrived at the Temple due to discussions here and decided to embrace the Sani Sabik faith. To you, my your path be that of wealthy and sucess. And as to put this Sermon into practical applications of it's content, I'd like to present Mr. Xavier with 200 mill isk in consideration for the healthy debate presented and the pleasing company shared within my Estates. Unfortunately my time was very short at that moment but undoubtely we will proceed with the meeting. Until the next Sermon Regards Lady Neferis Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.18 12:34:00 - [69] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 18/03/2008 12:35:09 A good point Captain Piskonit, and one central to my retort. If it's faith then it need only be a statement of such to be informative to others. If it is fact then it requires discussion to see if it holds as such under scrutiny. Revan however seems to have the two confused. Just because both faith and fact are true to the individual they are not the same thing. By defending her point she has moved it from the realm of faith, from the personal, to being part of a discussion and therefore requiring a logical basis for understanding. From this I would surmise that your latter implication is correct, this is not a sermon. It is a self-made stage for Revan to perform. The rest of us are merely bit parts to enhance her glory and when this role is not filled we are to be dismissed.
Keerie Jeanmot Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.18 14:20:00 - [70] It was a very interesting Sermon my Sovereign. And I too, (as the Grand Inquisitor of Bloodveil) would like to welcome the new Blood Discents.
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It is a self-made stage for Revan to perform. The rest of us are merely bit parts to enhance her glory and when this role is not filled we are to be dismissed. We are all performers in the great theater of time. The Universe, a new stage at each dawn. And when the sun rises... new scenes, new actors, new audiences. This is called... living. Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Ravin Abai Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:02:00 - [72] Lady Neferis: While I disagree with a few of the things mentioned and intimated by your sermon, I found it to be satisfactory. I agree wholly with your interpretation of the Apocryphal texts quoted in this thread. You seem to have a lot of experience sparring with these obstinate "defenders of humanity," but I felt compelled to offer you a bit of encouragement nonetheless.
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:36:00 - [73] Originally by: Ravin Abai Lady Neferis: While I disagree with a few of the things mentioned and intimated by your sermon, I found it to be satisfactory. I agree wholly with your interpretation of the Apocryphal texts quoted in this thread. You seem to have a lot of experience sparring with these obstinate "defenders of humanity," but I felt compelled to offer you a bit of encouragement nonetheless. Greetings Mr Abai. Your words are appreciated and it's good to know that you are seeking knowledge inside the Apocryphal texts. About sparring with the defenders of poverty and misery "aka; mass commoners", yes, three years of experience made it not only a source of entertainment but an interesting study source too. The raged beasts can serve for something after all. My regards Lady Neferis Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:33:00 - [74] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf ... faith actually requires a lack of evidence. If evidence exists then it's not faith is it? Rubbish, pure pseudo-scientific tripe. Faith is what leads you from evidence to theory, and if you really believe, to truth. The mind works the same under all disciplines, religious, scientific or otherwise. It sees evidence, it makes a leap of faith and if it succeeds, turns it into truth. Don't mistake the mechanism of personal experience as evidence of some reality more real than another. -----------------------------------------
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.19 16:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf ... faith actually requires a lack of evidence. If evidence exists then it's not faith is it? Rubbish, pure pseudo-scientific tripe. Faith is what leads you from evidence to theory, and if you really believe, to truth. The mind works the same under all disciplines, religious, scientific or otherwise. It sees evidence, it makes a leap of faith and if it succeeds, turns it into truth. Don't mistake the mechanism of personal experience as evidence of some reality more real than another. Greetings Mr. Mithralia I couldn¦t possibly express my thoughts any better. But beware, you might actually hurt his feelings by saying such things. Originally by: ISD BH Eshtir Ps.: I also know its hard to RP whith a Cyno Jammer.
Raktar Medovski Omen Incorporated Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.21 02:30:00 - [76] Fair lady Revan, if I may call you that, I would like to respond to an earlier thing you posted: Originally by: Revan Neferis I can resume all suposed arguments with a few lines: There is no truth other then facts to be brought here. This is a lie. Truth is only in the eyes of the beholder. I'll give an example. A man could, and at one time, man did, believe that the sun revolves around his world, instead of worlds revolving around the sun. He believes this to be true, although the laws of the universe make it known to be false. On the issue that you speak, your beliefs are radical, and most people believe them false. Yes, poor people can make their situation better, but there is an invisible, unconscious human law: There can not be rich people without there being poor people.
Solus Shade Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.22 17:47:00 - [77] Originally by: Revan Neferis I'd like to close this by welcoming the new Initiates that arrived at the Temple due to discussions here and decided to embrace the Sani Sabik faith. To you, my your path be that of wealthy and success. Thank you my Sovereign. As my path has led me here, I have already achieved wealth and success. Of course more wealth and success never hurt.
Aranel Zirachii Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.28 13:39:00 - [78] Lady Neferis, please help me to understand, i am in confusion about this - 'Bloodveil endorses the free will of each individual to fight for its right to ascend. At the end, the will of the strong shall prevail.' Hence would poverty not be a weak feature, therefore those deserve not to have the life they are given? "There will be no poverty. The unfit to use life as it is given will be eliminated" Extracts from the Apocrypha, book of Initiations VII, verses 2,3:
Baron Levian Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.29 14:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Aranel Zirachii Lady Neferis, please help me to understand, i am in confusion about this - 'Bloodveil endorses the free will of each individual to fight for its right to ascend. At the end, the will of the strong shall prevail.' Hence would poverty not be a weak feature, therefore those deserve not to have the life they are given? "There will be no poverty. The unfit to use life as it is given will be eliminated" Extracts from the Apocrypha, book of Initiations VII, verses 2,3: Although I'm only an Initiate I believe that this passage of the book is clear: 1- Bloodveil endorses the right of each individual to ascend. 2- Hence poverty is a weak feature because poverty restricts self-development. 3- The unfit to use life as it is given - with right to abundance - will be eliminated Levian
Kohiko Sun Rising Sun Mining Inc. Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.29 14:47:00 - [80] Edited by: Kohiko Sun on 29/03/2008 14:56:11 Originally by: Baron Levian 1- Bloodveil endorses the right of each individual to ascend. 2- Hence poverty is a weak feature because poverty restricts self-development. 3- The unfit to use life as it is given - with right to abundance - will be eliminated I care nothing for this subject. I am not one this "lesson" is for. However, there is a flaw in your logic that I must address. Points one and three form a paradox as you relate them. Your elimination denies these rights you name. Return to your ravings, but, please, do not murder simple logic. Perhaps you spoke poorly? If so, try again. This is where I found my Sig.
Aranel Zirachii Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.29 23:38:00 - [81] Originally by: Baron Levian Although I'm only an Initiate I believe that this passage of the book is clear: 1- Bloodveil endorses the right of each individual to ascend. 2- Hence poverty is a weak feature because poverty restricts self-development. 3- The unfit to use life as it is given - with right to abundance - will be eliminated Levian Yes that is how i see it, however if Bloodveil endorses the elimination of such beings then, was the point of this post to simply denounce the amarrian 'sayings' against there actions or to denounce the whole aspect of poverty?
Revan Neferis Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.03.30 02:51:00 - [82] Originally by: Aranel Zirachii Yes that is how i see it, however if Bloodveil endorses the elimination of such beings then, was the point of this post to simply denounce the amarrian 'sayings' against there actions or to denounce the whole aspect of poverty? Both. To declare that Bloodveil considers the amarrian loyalist incentive to poverty masked to what they call " charity " a lie to feed themselves upon a weak controlled society; and to declare that Bloodveil refuses this sort of society by promoting it's extermination. EvE-roleplayers
Kojima Asuka Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.03.31 22:34:00 - [83] I have read this sermon and would like to take this opportunity to declare my faith. I accept the doctrines of the Bloodveil, and give myself to Revan and the Bloodveil. I give up all my rights to the Federation in exchange for the freedoms of the Bloodveil and the faith that accompanies this. I denounce the God's of previous and accept the new. Hail Bloodveil!
Baron Levian	Posted - 2008.04.01 03:59:00 - [84] Originally by: Kojima Asuka I have read this sermon and would like to take this opportunity to declare my faith. I accept the doctrines of the Bloodveil, and give myself to Revan and the Bloodveil. I give up all my rights to the Federation in exchange for the freedoms of the Bloodveil and the faith that accompanies this. I denounce the God's of previous and accept the new. Hail Bloodveil! Receive a first welcome from a brother. Levian Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Aranel Zirachii Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.01 11:08:00 - [85] After having pondered the whole 'conflict' going on here it only makes 'sense' in what Lady Neferis and the cult of Bloodveil see. Let me see if i can get this straight for a second. A) There can be health and a good quality of living among a race while still having 'richer then most' people - there is no need for poverty B) This can only happen if the 'lesser' people in the chain of hierarchy of a race accept with grace there place in the world and be comforted in the fact they live healthy and meaningful lives under the true gods - This also requires the leaders to ensure that everyone else's needs are met, twisting the mechanics of religion incurs the degradation of a community C)This factor combines with the precept of Sani Sabik faith ""Some people were born for greatness and other people only lives to feed and breed these geniuses" Designating the 'rich' (leaders) and the 'well off'(everyone else) From these factors we can conclude that the 'Amarrian' religion has been abused into a deceitful and self-gaining mechanism by its leaders
Revan Neferis	Posted - 2008.04.01 13:29:00 - [86] Originally by: Aranel Zirachii After having pondered the whole 'conflict' going on here it only makes 'sense' in what Lady Neferis and the cult of Bloodveil see. Let me see if i can get this straight for a second. A) There can be health and a good quality of living among a race while still having 'richer then most' people - there is no need for poverty B) This can only happen if the 'lesser' people in the chain of hierarchy of a race accept with grace there place in the world and be comforted in the fact they live healthy and meaningful lives under the true gods - This also requires the leaders to ensure that everyone else's needs are met, twisting the mechanics of religion incurs the degradation of a community C)This factor combines with the precept of Sani Sabik faith ""Some people were born for greatness and other people only lives to feed and breed these geniuses" Designating the 'rich' (leaders) and the 'well off'(everyone else) From these factors we can conclude that the 'Amarrian' religion has been abused into a deceitful and self-gaining mechanism by its leaders Precisely the message of the Sermon. It pleases me to see that many pod-pilots are finally getting the true sense of it. To the new Initiates, again my welcome. May your path inside the Sani Sabik be that of sucess. Regards Lady Neferis Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. EvE-roleplayers
Keerie Jeanmot Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.04.01 20:10:00 - [87] Originally by: Kojima Asuka I denounce the God's of previous and accept the new. Hail Bloodveil! There is no God. But Welcome to Bloodveil.
Astarte Nosferatu We Know Derek Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:31:00 - [88] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko Question: Should the sin of poverty be considered to punish itself (and therefore not merit further action), or what actions might be necessary to counter this sin? Most specifically since wealth itself is a fleeting blessing for most - a wealth simply inherited or bestowed with no skill resident in the beneficiary would make this wealth impotent, wherefore a printing-press approach should not be expected to make people "wealthy" longer than it takes for them to find a shopping mall. Some of the older and more gifted Sani Sabik chose to spend all their isk at once just to test their skills at re-earning that isk as fast as possible. In the Nosferatu beliefs, you need to be able to make your own isk, donations and with it inheritance are just more signs of weakness. For example, I periodically spend tens of billions of isk to end up broke, just to test my superior brain and my incredible talent of making isk to see how fast it'll take to be back at let's say, 50bil. It's how we gods enjoy ourselves in this vermin infested universe. That, and killing innocent people of course. signature removed - please email us to find out why - Jacques([email protected]) snip Do not discuss moderation in your sig - hutch
Shiaari Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:29:00 - [89] Revan Neferis: It is an interesting philosophy you have, however such as it is you are blaming the victim for a condition of misfortune. Now I'm sure there are those in the Empire who veil their dominion in charity, but let us not forget wealth to be a corporeal possession; wealth isn't in any respect omnipresent, and certainly not omnibenevolent. The very definition of wealth, which to have is to be wealthy, means to have more; the natural antithesis cries thusly: to have more inevitably there must be one with less. Indeed the very search for wealth is a practice in coerced piracy even in the capitalist context; which is to say in our exchange of goods and services we seek a material advantage over our "customers", such we exchange minimal goods and services for maximum profit. This is not an act of God, Madam Neferis, it is in fact a prodigious act of man. Being wealthy is not an entitlement afforded the divine, rather a liberty claimed by the cunning and the wise; even they sometimes come into poor fortune.
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar We Know Derek Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2008.04.14 16:07:00 - [90] Originally by: Shiaari : The very definition of wealth, which to have is to be wealthy, means to have more; the natural antithesis cries thusly: to have more inevitably there must be one with less. There will always be people that are poor and thus deserve to die, if not we'll make them. Originally by: Shiaari This is not an act of God, Madam Neferis, it is in fact a prodigious act of man. Being wealthy is not an entitlement afforded the divine, rather a liberty claimed by the cunning and the wise; even they sometimes come into poor fortune. Of course it is not an act of God, because God is death. Of course it is a liberty claimed by the cunning and the wise, that's the whole point. Some people are born with a natural genius and superiority above the average mortal, and they exploit what seperates them from the unenlightened mob. We do it because we can, it would be a shame to waste those unique talents like the unguided do. signature removed - please email us to find out why - Jacques([email protected]) snip Do not discuss moderation in your sig - hutch

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