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Attonasi
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:07:00 -
[1]
If you spend over 2 months to train for something, like t2 guns that can use t2 ammo, it should be better right? Well it isn't. Everyone uses faction ammo now. It is lame.
This is just a random thought I had while browsing KB's. You know most of these players can use t2 ammo and many of them have t2 guns fitted with faction ammo. Best named guns/launchers cost 5X-10X as much as the t2 counterparts that take much more skill to use.
There shouldn't really be a balance issue. Newbie ammo shouldn't be as good as T2 ammo. I know why t2 ammo was nerfed in the first place, but most goons can use t2 now right? So can we put it back to where it should be?
I hate forums
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Aem
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:11:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Attonasi
If you spend over 2 months to train for something, like t2 guns that can use t2 ammo, it should be better right? Well it isn't. Everyone uses faction ammo now. It is lame.
This is just a random thought I had while browsing KB's. You know most of these players can use t2 ammo and many of them have t2 guns fitted with faction ammo. Best named guns/launchers cost 5X-10X as much as the t2 counterparts that take much more skill to use.
There shouldn't really be a balance issue. Newbie ammo shouldn't be as good as T2 ammo. I know why t2 ammo was nerfed in the first place, but most goons can use t2 now right? So can we put it back to where it should be?
Well you train a certain spec of gunnery to 5. Medium Energy Turret, you don't just get to use the T2 AMMO, you also get the specilization which adds damage.
Lets say you dont train T2, just stay at L4, you're missing out on 30% damage per gun (1 from 5, and 5 from SPEC)
It's not always about ammo. |
Kia Rash
The Phalanx Expeditionary Conglomerate
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:12:00 -
[3]
it is better, if used in the right situation.
t2 dosnt always mean just better, sometimes it means more specialized.
although i agree that half of the t2 ammo's should be looked at and rebalanced
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:14:00 -
[4]
Not all T2 ships are universally better than their T1 counterparts - they're designed to fill certain roles, which may or may not be similar to the roles of their T1 equivalents.
I can't personally comment on T2 ammo because I don't use guns, but keep in mind that T2 doesn't mean universally better.
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Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Arana Tellen
The Blackguard Wolves
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:15:00 -
[5]
Maybe an ammo spec skill? 2% increased damage per level, requires the gun spec to IV.
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Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Attonasi
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aem
Originally by: Attonasi
If you spend over 2 months to train for something, like t2 guns that can use t2 ammo, it should be better right? Well it isn't. Everyone uses faction ammo now. It is lame.
This is just a random thought I had while browsing KB's. You know most of these players can use t2 ammo and many of them have t2 guns fitted with faction ammo. Best named guns/launchers cost 5X-10X as much as the t2 counterparts that take much more skill to use.
There shouldn't really be a balance issue. Newbie ammo shouldn't be as good as T2 ammo. I know why t2 ammo was nerfed in the first place, but most goons can use t2 now right? So can we put it back to where it should be?
Well you train a certain spec of gunnery to 5. Medium Energy Turret, you don't just get to use the T2 AMMO, you also get the specilization which adds damage.
Lets say you dont train T2, just stay at L4, you're missing out on 30% damage per gun (1 from 5, and 5 from SPEC)
It's not always about ammo.
I was going to post a cogent response, then a flame, now I settle on: Duh.
Originally by: Kia Rash
it is better, if used in the right situation.
t2 dosnt always mean just better, sometimes it means more specialized.
although i agree that half of the t2 ammo's should be looked at and rebalanced
The right situation, according to KB's, is virtually never.
P.S. I can think of the "right" situations I don't need ******** flames. But t2 ammo should be a staple for non-newbish combat, not a niche use item.
I hate forums
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Popperr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:19:00 -
[7]
Faction isn't tech one. Maybe Tech 2 webs should be better than domi webs? Tech 2 ammo is specialist ammo, it's better than tech one ammo, it's even better than faction ammo under certain circumstances (see barrage) It gives an older player versatility instead of being able to simply wipe the floor with newbs. It's fine. |
DrDevice
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:20:00 -
[8]
i think this applies quadruple to t2 rockets. Only used by frigates, often whos only defence is speed, has their speed reduced, meaning its suicidal to actually load t2 ammo :(
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Attonasi
But t2 ammo should be a staple for non-newbish combat, not a niche use item.
Honestly, I think the disparity between T2 and T1 is big enough as it is. T2 ammo should possibly be made more viable, but I don't think it should be the obvious choice for all engagements.
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Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Barzam
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:22:00 -
[10]
The T2 ammo I use is fine.
Faction modules should always be at least as good as, or better than T2. If anything is to be done, maybe the values of the faction counterparts should be upped a little bit to reflect this.
However, I don't think Republic Fleet EMP L for example gives you more raw dps than Hail L, or does it? It probably -should-.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kia Rash
it is better, if used in the right situation.
t2 dosnt always mean just better, sometimes it means more specialized.
although i agree that half of the t2 ammo's should be looked at and rebalanced
Yep... T2 missiles fail horribly. Cutting my range by over half to use T2 Heavies is nuts. Only really good T2 ammo I've noticed seems to be for lasers and autocannons... never had a problem using T2 blaster ammo either. Just the missiles... 
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Originally by: CCP Mitnal
It's great being a puppetmaster 
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Aem
White-Noise
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:23:00 -
[12]
Amarr Navy Multifrequency S,M,L > Conflaguration S,M,L
Scorch S,M,L > Others (bar conflag, multis. It's all about the range bonus)
I'd only ever carry Amarr Navy Multis and Scorch. Every piece of ammo has a place and use, sometimes faction is better, sometimes T2 just shines and fills the right gaps.
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wamingo
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:24:00 -
[13]
More SP = More Diversity != Better.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:26:00 -
[14]
the biggest problem with T2 ammo is that it has negatives that are so bad on some that people wont use it.
what they should have done is keep the dmg same as T1 and had positive modifiers instead on the ammo.
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ghosttr
ARK-CORP
SATRAPY
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:28:00 -
[15]
Since faction ammo is so common now alot of the time the difference between faction ammo and t2 isn't enough to justify the drawbacks.
My Blog |
Seine
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Seine on 14/03/2008 14:36:33
I have only found 1 time where Quake M is more usefull than Titanium Sabot M. That is the named dude in level 4 Vengeance.
Other than that T2 ammo seems to be a complete money.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Seine
I have only found 1 time where Quake M is more usefull than Titanium Sabot M. That is the named dude in level 4 Vengeance.
I heard he dies well to emp l, too ;)
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Lady Karma
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Seine
Edited by: Seine on 14/03/2008 14:36:33
I have only found 1 time where Quake M is more usefull than Titanium Sabot M. That is the named dude in level 4 Vengeance.
Other than that T2 ammo seems to be a complete money.
Barrage falloff bonus is essential for vaga pilots.
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Attonasi
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:41:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Attonasi on 14/03/2008 14:42:50
So 2 things come from some of these responses:
1. Tech 2 ammo shouldn't be better than t1.
2. Different is better enough.
WTF?
First off Tech II in my mind = more advanced than Tech I. That would imply better.
Second if you want niche ammo it should be the factions coming up with their own variants. As it is faction ammo is better than t1 in all ways. T2 ammo has great range with really crappy tracking to the point it is useless for close range setups, or a speed penalty that makes it useless for smaller ships, or a cap regen penalty on the heavy damage torps that do barely more than faction torps but have half the velocity, or on heavy damage rail ammo you get a massive tracking penalty and horrifying cap use that makes it useful for the first half of a carrier takedown. This could be a really long sentence.
I have characters that can use all types of t2 ammo/guns. Instead they all invariably use faction ammo, and about 1/3 of the t2 ammo has a possbible niche use so I carry it. The only t2 ammo that I believe to be useful atm is Spike L. But most fleets don't warp in to ranges where it is needed on my Rokh so I end up using ammo that doesn't cut tracking in half.
edit: typo
I hate forums
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Arachidamia
The Ninja Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:46:00 -
[20]
Long range t2 turret ammo is great.... pretty much every other t2 ammo type needs reduced penalties. And from what I've seen missile t2 ammo is also pretty useless. A good example is the malediction. To strike outside web range it must use javelins... and in doing so loses a good 2k/sec in speed. 
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Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:50:00 -
[21]
I must be getting old, because I swear that faction items has always been better than tech 2.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Attonasi
Edited by: Attonasi on 14/03/2008 14:42:50
So 2 things come from some of these responses:
1. Tech 2 ammo shouldn't be better than t1.
2. Different is better enough.
WTF?
You're misquoting me here. I said that T2 ammunition shouldn't be universally better than T1. It should be better at certain roles than T1 ammunition and worse at others. Obviously CCP got this right with some ammunition (Spike, Barrage) but not with others.
So the problem here isn't that all T2 ammunition isn't powerful enough, but that a lot of T2 ammunition isn't good at a role it's supposed to fulfil due to a lack of advantages or a high number of drawbacks.
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Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2 |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:56:00 -
[23]
Short range ammo types just need better overall damage compared to faction. Right now there is no reason to use void or javelin over fed navy AM. Multiple drawbacks give them different roles , T2 ammo just need to be more effective in their niches.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
Locked
I don't believe that a link to a RickRoll video constitutes proof, even in CAOD.
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:57:00 -
[24]
I agree extra cap use and reducing tracking by 50% (!!!!!!!) for some extra DPS over faction ammo is completely ********.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Reducing lag, one carebear at a time. |
AsfALT
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.14 14:57:00 -
[25]
T1= normal car
T2= normal car super tunned for speed (no more AC/leather seats and other comfy stuff)
Which one is better?
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Alski
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:20:00 -
[26]
I have to agree that the T2 ammo types that have stupidly bad penalty’s, such as reduced cap recharge, reduced speed etc, were poorly thought out and need to be rebalanced.
But i'd settle for CCP just revaluating the balance between the penalties on S, M and L ammo sizes, having frigate sized weapons that have extremely harsh penalties to speed, cap recharge, or both ARE useless, no matter how specialist you think they should be.
There is a point beyond which penalty’s stop constraining something to a specialist role and make it completely useless, some of the T2 small / rocket / light missile ammo most definitely crosses this line.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Asestorian
Domination.
Scorched Earth.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:26:00 -
[27]
Tech II ammo should not be better in all ways than Tech I. They are, like a lot of Tech II things, designed with a more specialised role in mind. I, as an Amarr pilot, use Scorch all the time in PvP, because it has that extra range.
That isn't to say that all Tech II ammo is fine though. There are clearly some areas where the penalties need to be re-evaluated so that various ammos are usable in their intended role in the current PvP climate.
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MOZO
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:27:00 -
[28]
Although T2 missiles are actually great, T2 ammo should not be generally better than T1. Isk should be the balancer, not skill points.
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:43:00 -
[29]
Gimping the tracking on close range t2 ammo is a stupid drawback. Sure the dps on paper is higher, but once you factor in real combat factors (like transversal and orbiting) it makes less sense. T2 long range ammo is great though.
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Buyerr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:18:00 -
[30]
well t2 is laugheble right now :P
even with maxed out skills they are only the tiniest bit better then the navy mods and a lot worse then officer mods.
should be fixed a bit.
I declare war on stupidity |
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