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Sophia Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:50:00 -
[1]
To start, I am trying to keep an open mind toward this type of thing however, it seems a little unbalanced to allow a player to scan me down while running a mission in high sec and loot my wrecks before I even get the chance. The unbalance, imho, come in the fact that I can't shoot the looter. I work the mission, I kill the rats, then I loss the wreck without the ability to protect the reward this is somewhat frustrating. Now, before I get flamed I endorse piracy and PVP in this game and I feel that I am gimped of PVP! There is a moderate risk in running mission, for the mission runner. should the ninja looters who want to scan down mission runners not have a little risk to their endeavorers?
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Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:01:00 -
[2]
It's been discussed many times. You don't own the wreck, so when someone else loots it, you don't get kill rights.
This is in-line with the mechanics for the rest of Eve. If your ship is destroyed, who owns the wreck? You do, and you get kill rights on anyone that loots it. Same with NPCs. You kill them, "they" own the wreck.
When you loot mission wrecks, you are not being "rewarded" by your agent, you are stealing from the faction of the NPCs that you just killed -- So is the "looter" that has "invaded" your mission. You've just done the dirty work of killing the NPCs.
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I am Super Cool
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Naridos
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:55:00 -
[3]
LOLZ at looting wrecks before others  I love it.
 Quote:
You Know you play too much Eve when you get into a car crash and you run away as fast as you can so that you don't get podded.
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Wataru Khan
I.M.M
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Wataru Khan on 14/03/2008 20:48:21
The problem isn't so much right-to-take rules, as when you give them some thought they really do make sense, we're just way to used to wreck loot being "ours". The problem as I see it is how childishly simple being scanned down in the first place is.
Compared to the skill and equipment and actuel player talent needed to be successful at mining or trading or building or agent running or pvp etc, the simplisitic and quick nature of scan downs is utterly borked relative to finding loot for free, especially given the supposed nature of these missions. Giant Corp X is willing to pay you exorbidant fees to check a spot out that takes other players 2 minutes to scan through? wtf?
The excellent live dev chat recently held in game sadly proved i'm the only person who thinks that. After mentioning ccp didn't want to up and change local for the exact reason most WANT it changed, IE "ridiculus perfect never fail sneak destroying intel tool that's supposed to be a space version of msn", they actuelly spoke about making it eaiser AND even FASTER in the future to scan down pilots, cloaked or not, and possibly even by name, destroying the single piece of anonimity left scanning targets.
Sucks, but when nearly every decision in the entire games structure is made clearly to support piracy and punish even attempting to live under rule of law...I can't say I'm supprised.
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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sophia Savage
To start, I am trying to keep an open mind toward this type of thing however, it seems a little unbalanced to allow a player to scan me down while running a mission in high sec and loot my wrecks before I even get the chance. The unbalance, imho, come in the fact that I can't shoot the looter. I work the mission, I kill the rats, then I loss the wreck without the ability to protect the reward this is somewhat frustrating. Now, before I get flamed I endorse piracy and PVP in this game and I feel that I am gimped of PVP! There is a moderate risk in running mission, for the mission runner. should the ninja looters who want to scan down mission runners not have a little risk to their endeavorers?
If someone loots your wreck, you have rights to shoot him. If he salvages it, you don't.
As it stands, you and the poster nr 2 don't even know what it is you are whining about.
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Sophia Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:17:00 -
[6]
If someone loots your wreck, you have rights to shoot him. If he salvages it, you don't.
As it stands, you and the poster nr 2 don't even know what it is you are whining about.
tbh - not whining about it, I am ok with piracy and the likes. However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
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Terranid Meester
Knights Hospitalier
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 22:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sophia Savage
If someone loots your wreck, you have rights to shoot him. If he salvages it, you don't.
As it stands, you and the poster nr 2 don't even know what it is you are whining about.
tbh - not whining about it, I am ok with piracy and the likes. However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
A wreck is not the same as loot. This will not change and will stay as a free for all scramble. So say the devs.
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Oldin Kinrod
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.14 22:23:00 -
[8]
The current flagging system never used to be in place - it was quite a while ago that anything could be taking without fear of recourse. This was also around the same time that jetcan mining became a popular way to mine.
Miners whined on the forums that they "couldn't defend their stuff" (which I always found odd, as to jettision something is to throw it away). CCP then changed it to this current mechanic and people now use this to start fights in high sec.
People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Sphynx Stormlord
Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2008.03.14 22:47:00 -
[9]
If you want to shoot people who invade your missions, play in low sec.
If you dont want them to shoot you, play in high sec, and tolerate them helping you out by doing the salvaging.
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Myshella Drake
Ward-Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.14 22:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sophia Savage
tbh - not whining about it, I am ok with piracy and the likes. However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
I can understand, to a point, people who complain about the salvaging mechanic. "i blew up the wreck so all the reward is mine" or "why dosent salvaging follow the same agro mechanic as looting does", and so on. However people who complain about this dont think it through fully.
Salvaging does not follow the same mechanic because the wreck maker didn't create the salvage, the salvager did when he/she went over to it and activated a module on it. you get rights to the loot because that is what was created by you when you blew up the NPC and thats fair enough. By wanting salvaging to give agg you are wanting to claim ownership to items that dont yet exist because you haven't gone through the process of salvaging them yourself yet.
A good example of this is hidden asteroid belts. im an explorer...i spend over 2 boring hours tracking down a signature ,comparable to running a long L4 mission. I warp in and the roids spawn and im the first one to find the site, in essence i created those roids . Now if someone probes out my barge i can't go ZOMGWTF! stop mining my roids! the stuff inside is mine, thats crazy because i haven't mined the ore out of them yet. I admit salvaging takes alot less time than a cycle on a miner but that dosent make it an invalid process. Remember the extra process is what makes the salvage components yours, it was not created when you killed the npc. until that time the wreck on its own is no different from say, an asteroid.
The whole argument about this is born out of mission runners selfishness and unwillingness to adapt like everyone else in eve is forced to everyday. All i can say is mission probers help even the playing field a little.
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Proud to stand up for my Profession
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Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 23:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sirius Problem on 14/03/2008 23:15:26
Originally by: Wataru Khan
The problem as I see it is how childishly simple being scanned down in the first place is.
Scan or probe? There is a difference, and probing mission runners isn't that easy.
Quote:
Sucks, but when nearly every decision in the entire games structure is made clearly to support piracy and punish even attempting to live under rule of law...I can't say I'm supprised.
This is a joke (troll) right?
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I am Super Cool
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Sophia Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.15 02:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Myshella Drake
Originally by: Sophia Savage
tbh - not whining about it, I am ok with piracy and the likes. However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
I can understand, to a point, people who complain about the salvaging mechanic. "i blew up the wreck so all the reward is mine" or "why dosent salvaging follow the same agro mechanic as looting does", and so on. However people who complain about this dont think it through fully.
Salvaging does not follow the same mechanic because the wreck maker didn't create the salvage, the salvager did when he/she went over to it and activated a module on it. you get rights to the loot because that is what was created by you when you blew up the NPC and thats fair enough. By wanting salvaging to give agg you are wanting to claim ownership to items that dont yet exist because you haven't gone through the process of salvaging them yourself yet.
A good example of this is hidden asteroid belts. im an explorer...i spend over 2 boring hours tracking down a signature ,comparable to running a long L4 mission. I warp in and the roids spawn and im the first one to find the site, in essence i created those roids . Now if someone probes out my barge i can't go ZOMGWTF! stop mining my roids! the stuff inside is mine, thats crazy because i haven't mined the ore out of them yet. I admit salvaging takes alot less time than a cycle on a miner but that dosent make it an invalid process. Remember the extra process is what makes the salvage components yours, it was not created when you killed the npc. until that time the wreck on its own is no different from say, an asteroid.
The whole argument about this is born out of mission runners selfishness and unwillingness to adapt like everyone else in eve is forced to everyday. All i can say is mission probers help even the playing field a little.
Great point on hidden belts :) I see the point in leaving the wrecks neutral and after reading the input you guys have given on the matter have to agree. I guess mission running in high sec will have these pests and who knows maybe I'll give it a try in the future 
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Myshella Drake
Ward-Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.15 04:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sophia Savage
Great point on hidden belts :) I see the point in leaving the wrecks neutral and after reading the input you guys have given on the matter have to agree. I guess mission running in high sec will have these pests and who knows maybe I'll give it a try in the future
I actually want to thank you for reading through all the responses and thinking about them with an open mind, thats rare in these threads... that being said if you ever want some tips on 'ninja salvaging' feel free to eve mail me 
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Proud to stand up for my Profession
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Kahega Amielden
Legacy Syndicate
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.03.15 04:42:00 -
[14]
Quote:
However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
Dealing with them is the price you pay for running missions in a hisec mission hub with no actual danger to yourself.
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Traidor Disloyal
Racketeers
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Posted - 2008.03.15 04:49:00 -
[15]
The people I hang with in game would love for salvaging to cause aggro. Just one more way for them to kill mission runners. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
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Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot |
Smantha Dering
Sam's Space Guys
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Posted - 2008.03.15 13:35:00 -
[16]
If I want anyone to have my wrecks I ask in local and invite someone to come through the mission and get the wrecks. If I don't want anyone to have my wrecks I let the prober get close to a wreck and then pop it, if he tries another wreck I pop that one etc etc. Or I avoid the game of wreck popping the one close to the salvager and just pop the wrecks as I go. Seriously, if you don't want to share that which everyone is entitled to if they can find it, then take it as you go, have a corpmate take it or pop your wrecks. If everyone popped their wrecks, there'd be no market for mission probers, missioners create the opportunity.
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Dahin
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:39:00 -
[17]
I'd rather have the CNR pilot eject and save me the the time.
Sweet jesus all that crap loot that I keep on piling in a container...
Why fly covops? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0WOIwlXE9g |
Fourty Niner
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:51:00 -
[18]
If they are in a corp, WAR dec them.
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Wataru Khan
I.M.M
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:25:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Sucks, but when nearly every decision in the entire games structure is made clearly to support piracy and punish even attempting to live under rule of law...I can't say I'm supprised.
This is a joke (troll) right?
You gotta be kidding. If your for real, I'd gladly send you an email with what I'm talking about, but I'm not dropping it here as the epic 5+ page tome I could drop on exactly what I'm talking about would unfairly hijack the thread. Let me know if you actually want it.
I especially dig the good old "Selfish Mission Runners" line. How low sec fans can say people who aren't bringing the entire game to them are selfish, yet in the same breath follow that up with an explanation of exactly how everyone should play because that's what -they- think is comic gold. Course, even that's not matched:
"High Sec has Zero risk."
Gimme a second, my eyes are watering from the uncontrolled laughter.
I'd love to see some verifiable numbers that support the idea people in high sec are just vastly out earning low and null sec in the first place, because the entire argument itself is based on that assumption, and it's one I see supported with dodgey numbers at best. Zero Risk? The game you happen to be playing where high hi sec has the following must be loads of fun:
no suicide no-consequence high sec ganks
empire space devoid of a single pirate spawn
trade runs where a player can stay inside Jita and make 300 million an hour
Empire-sec includes Bistot and Arkanor
Concord actually matters
sec status isn't handed out like candy corn on Halloween to facilitate suicide ganks
the bounty system isn't a current laughable joke (though ccp has said they'll fix this)
And I could go on until the end of time. Look, if everyone that wanted people out of empire into low sec would just come clean and admit it has nothing to do with earnings, it has to do with wanting to vaporize everyone in the game without risking a Concordoken, it'd be alot easier to listen to drivel like "High sec has no risk" and "high secs are selfish" and "high secs won't adapt". When low sec wanna-pie's stop whining about any thing that makes their job require thought instead of squatting over a gate for 12 hours at a time, we'll talk.
Of course, how could I forget the computer game forum equivalent of the race card:
"Adapt or Die".
Ohhhh. I dig that one. The first time that pops out of someones mouth, you can officially stop paying attention, because "adapt or die" loosely translate into "I'm going to whine until it's my way, and you better agree, but since I can't explain why it'd be better one way over the other, I'm just going to say adapt or die, because that way I sound like my shifty idea is best for the game." Really. Bravo.
Sides, it's a moot point anyway. CCP actually understands why there's such a disconnect between empire and null sec. I was actually impressed with that live blog. it isn't working right now. Empire has "marginal security" and low earnings, null has high risk and high earnings, but low sec, if you aren't a pirate, has high risk AND low earnings. They had a few interesting ideas, not the least of which is some form of ad hoc sovereignty system players sign up into that allows them to police their systems, which if that ends up working as well as it could, you'll be seeing me in low sec very very soon.
Until then, try to pull your head out of your exhaust pipes long enough to see the world from more than one view point before you post. Or don't. I do love a comedic break from the action, and listening to duplicitous hypocritical myopic talentless tantrum throwing listless uninspired lazy low sec gankbears who couldn't -pronounce- "Game Balance" let alone define it is heartwarming to the extreme.
P.S. Real Pirates, I'm not talking to you all. Getting ransomed or popped by a real pirate is part of the games fun. You know who you are. We know not everyone acts like gankbears. Keep the faith, and keep the yarr.
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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:01:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 15/03/2008 20:03:07
Originally by: Sophia Savage
If someone loots your wreck, you have rights to shoot him. If he salvages it, you don't.
As it stands, you and the poster nr 2 don't even know what it is you are whining about.
tbh - not whining about it, I am ok with piracy and the likes. However, if the loot is mine after a kill then the wreck the loot sits in should also be mine. All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him. As it stands someone can come in and salvage a wreck without fearing the retaliation from the person who destroyed the ship to create the wreck. It just doesn't seem to mesh well with the current flagging system.
You still don't get it.You say you don't have the right to Quote:
All I am saying is Flag the wreck looter so I can shoot him.
. Looting and salvaging are 2 different things.
If by your usage of the word looter you actually mean salvager, then by all means, say so, and learn to express yourself by using the proper words.
Anyway, CCP won't change this because they want salvaging to be a profession.
It would be awesome if they changed it though, in a few days eve would grind to a hold with the whines posted in C&P. :)
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Mo Steel
Sanguis vix Dignatio
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:15:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mo Steel on 15/03/2008 22:16:23
Originally by: Wataru Khan
Compared to the skill and equipment and actuel player talent needed to be successful at ... agent running..., the simplisitic and quick nature of scan downs is utterly borked [snip]
Man, sure is more difficult to run missions in my raven than it is to use scan probes.
Missioning may cost more in isk to start on for ship setups, but it yields more than scan probing other missioners by a long shot. Bounties and LP > salvage junk / stolen lewtz.
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Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each. |
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