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Council is a stupid idea, here is a better one...

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Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 01:33:11 There is no need to delegate the voices of a few hundred thousands players to representatives. In a game like this the "issues" are pretty few and everyone is well acquainted with them. A better idea is to just have a poll when the feeling of hte public needs to be gauged. If CCP hires a single community service rep and has him do nothing but read the forums and see what is on peoples minds he should be able to see what people are concerned about (which ships people think need balancing, which mods, what skills people do not like, do people think CCP should spend more time on storyline etc)... Then, CCP implements an in-game polling system (another button on the far left that lets people see what polls are open to vote in). The rep then phrases the question in a poll... Ie. "Does the Ferox need another turret hard point?" "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" etc etc. That beats the pants off some obtuse delegate system that is ONLY going to be a corrupt joke that gives CCP a false impression of the general publics feelings... In short, there is absolutely no need to create a roundabout system for figuring out how players feel when it would be SO EASY to simply ask the players directly, eliminating corruption and allowing a pure undiluted look at how people feel.
Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 01:33:11 There is no need to delegate the voices of a few hundred thousands players to representatives. In a game like this the "issues" are pretty few and everyone is well acquainted with them. A better idea is to just have a poll when the feeling of hte public needs to be gauged. If CCP hires a single community service rep and has him do nothing but read the forums and see what is on peoples minds he should be able to see what people are concerned about (which ships people think need balancing, which mods, what skills people do not like, do people think CCP should spend more time on storyline etc)... Then, CCP implements an in-game polling system (another button on the far left that lets people see what polls are open to vote in). The rep then phrases the question in a poll... Ie. "Does the Ferox need another turret hard point?" "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" etc etc. That beats the pants off some obtuse delegate system that is ONLY going to be a corrupt joke that gives CCP a false impression of the general publics feelings... In short, there is absolutely no need to create a roundabout system for figuring out how players feel when it would be SO EASY to simply ask the players directly, eliminating corruption and allowing a pure undiluted look at how people feel.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:37:00 - [3] Polls are a stupid idea and here's why; Demographics for EVE being what they are the relative new meat will be in the majority and them not having a full scope of EVE they'll most likely poll towards options that results in the immediate improvement for them before changes that will benefit all in the long run. A similar notion as to why kids aren't allowed to vote in elections in any country, they're not yet wise enough. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:37:00 - [4] Polls are a stupid idea and here's why; Demographics for EVE being what they are the relative new meat will be in the majority and them not having a full scope of EVE they'll most likely poll towards options that results in the immediate improvement for them before changes that will benefit all in the long run. A similar notion as to why kids aren't allowed to vote in elections in any country, they're not yet wise enough. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:41:00 - [5] So make it for 6 months + only, that is such a minor nitpick.
Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:41:00 - [6] So make it for 6 months + only, that is such a minor nitpick.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Asuka Smith So make it for 6 months + only, that is such a minor nitpick. 6 months is nothing, I've been AFK for longer. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Asuka Smith So make it for 6 months + only, that is such a minor nitpick. 6 months is nothing, I've been AFK for longer. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:44:00 - [9] Polls are crap. Really, seriously bad idea. They are crap in politics, they are worse in games. This council presumably will be a gathering of players, likely senior players (but not necessarily), who will chew over various issues facing EVE and distill out some of the better ideas and concerns and pose them to CCP. CCP is not obliged to do anything about any of what they bring forth except for providing them their thoughts on the issues. Hopefully their responses will be more detailed than their usual, vague, "soon" answers. A poll would never get you that. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:44:00 - [10] Polls are crap. Really, seriously bad idea. They are crap in politics, they are worse in games. This council presumably will be a gathering of players, likely senior players (but not necessarily), who will chew over various issues facing EVE and distill out some of the better ideas and concerns and pose them to CCP. CCP is not obliged to do anything about any of what they bring forth except for providing them their thoughts on the issues. Hopefully their responses will be more detailed than their usual, vague, "soon" answers. A poll would never get you that. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:46:00 - [11] Okay if you think only the carrier pilots should get to vote you are going to have an even more skewed demographic. But I thought the point of the council was to represent the masses, and a better way to represent the masses is a one-man one-vote direct poll rather than some ridiculous delegate system. The best way to see how MOST PEOPLE FEEL is not to ask three or four who "I have a lot of friends and they all agree", it is to ask each and every person anonymously. And it is not like CCP will not get other data along with the poll, it will show each character who voteds race age corp skills etc, so if they want to see what miners think of a mining change they look to see who has exhumers trained and then count their votes, gives CCP a much better picture than asking Chribba "yo bro what do you think of this for mining?" and getting one mans opinion and falsely thinking it will represent the whole.
Emilie Storm Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:46:00 - [12] If all of CCP's changes were based solely on the majority opinion of the forums I would agree to this idea whole-heartedly. Thankfully though I don't think this is the case. Otherwise the majority of the forum posters, who are non-pvp folks that like to make space completely safe for solo miners would have had their way a long time ago. CCP generally invokes changes that their development team have looked into personally have agreed on doing within their own wisdom. I find they look to forums for ideas to improve the game that they haven't thought of or to see issues brought up by players. Then they look into these ideas/issues themselves and form an opinion generally agreed upon by the team (definitely wouldn't be unanimous due to different play styles) and make changes based on that. I am not as worried about CCP blindly making changes based on the loudest voices on these forums because of the above assessment that I believe is how they work. The largest threat that a whine for a change that I would not like to see implemented is merely the fact that CCP has been brought to notice of the issue. And since I cannot magically silence people who have opinions differing (inferior! joking =)) to mine it is something I just have to deal with. And I do so enjoying the game as it is now and if it changes to something I am not comfortable with playing in? Well I can just move on to other things to entertain myself (this is not a threat, it's a way of life - I am not going to be playing EVE for the rest of my life!).
Asuka Smith StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:46:00 - [13] Okay if you think only the carrier pilots should get to vote you are going to have an even more skewed demographic. But I thought the point of the council was to represent the masses, and a better way to represent the masses is a one-man one-vote direct poll rather than some ridiculous delegate system. The best way to see how MOST PEOPLE FEEL is not to ask three or four who "I have a lot of friends and they all agree", it is to ask each and every person anonymously. And it is not like CCP will not get other data along with the poll, it will show each character who voteds race age corp skills etc, so if they want to see what miners think of a mining change they look to see who has exhumers trained and then count their votes, gives CCP a much better picture than asking Chribba "yo bro what do you think of this for mining?" and getting one mans opinion and falsely thinking it will represent the whole.
Emilie Storm Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:46:00 - [14] Edited by: Emilie Storm on 20/03/2008 01:50:21 If all of CCP's changes were based solely on the majority opinion of the forums I would agree to this idea whole-heartedly. Thankfully though I don't think this is the case. Otherwise the majority of the forum posters, who are non-pvp folks that like to make space completely safe for solo miners would have had their way a long time ago. CCP generally invokes changes that their development team have looked into personally have agreed on doing within their own wisdom. I find they look to forums for ideas to improve the game that they haven't thought of or to see issues brought up by players. Then they look into these ideas/issues themselves and form an opinion generally agreed upon by the team (definitely wouldn't be unanimous due to different play styles) and make changes based on that. I am not as worried about CCP blindly making changes based on the loudest voices on these forums because of the above assessment that I believe is how they work. The largest threat that a whine for a change that I would not like to see implemented is merely the fact that CCP has been brought to notice of the issue. And since I cannot magically silence people who have opinions differing (inferior! joking =)) to mine it is something I just have to deal with. And I do so enjoying the game as it is now and if it changes to something I am not comfortable with playing in? Well I can just move on to other things to entertain myself (this is not a threat, it's a way of life - I am not going to be playing EVE for the rest of my life!). EDIT: Just to be consistent with this topic as I didn't get the full idea of this council tactic by CCP, I am also not too worried about this council of players affecting the game any more than forum posters.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Asuka Smith But I thought the point of the council was to represent the masses The masses are idiots and don't need a voice. See this forum as proof. A few experienced players who are able to look at the game objectively and then distill opinions to the Devs and have an actual conversation back and forth is far better than some stupid polling of the population that basically boils down to 'what will make me more powerful?' Do you think any Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar pilots are going to vote 'yes' to something that would make the Ferox more powerful? Do you think they even have a good understanding of the Ferox, how it works and what its role is? But then I really don't know if the CSM is a good idea at all. ____ Black Rabbits Recruitment
Gideon Kross Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 14:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Asuka Smith But I thought the point of the council was to represent the masses The masses are idiots and don't need a voice. See this forum as proof. A few experienced players who are able to look at the game objectively and then distill opinions to the Devs and have an actual conversation back and forth is far better than some stupid polling of the population that basically boils down to 'what will make me more powerful?' Do you think any Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar pilots are going to vote 'yes' to something that would make the Ferox more powerful? Do you think they even have a good understanding of the Ferox, how it works and what its role is? But then I really don't know if the CSM is a good idea at all. ... Let's Find Out. I was contemplating the immortal words of Socrates; Who said '... I Drank What?!'
Amethyst Rage	Posted - 2008.03.21 14:27:00 - [17] "The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. " Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:51:00 - [18] Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 21/03/2008 17:52:22 nm
Xanos Blackpaw	Posted - 2008.03.21 18:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Asuka Smith But I thought the point of the council was to represent the masses The masses are idiots and don't need a voice. See this forum as proof. A few experienced players who are able to look at the game objectively and then distill opinions to the Devs and have an actual conversation back and forth is far better than some stupid polling of the population that basically boils down to 'what will make me more powerful?' Do you think any Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar pilots are going to vote 'yes' to something that would make the Ferox more powerful? Do you think they even have a good understanding of the Ferox, how it works and what its role is? But then I really don't know if the CSM is a good idea at all. ...i would...and i HATE everything that got something to do with hybrid guns... Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.21 18:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Amethyst Rage "The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. " That's the most succinct description of this issue I've seen yet, and I wholeheartedly agree. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Zathi Shaitan Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.03.21 18:46:00 - [21] This is just CCP's way to say they do not want to spend the needed resources to take care of the community's needs. The elected Council will have some media-craving players on it, which will NOT represent the needs, nor the interest, of the whole community. While this clearly does not fix the problem, it diverges attention for some months. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus? http://loseloose.com/
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan This is just CCP's way to say they do not want to spend the needed resources to take care of the community's needs. The elected Council will have some media-craving players on it, which will NOT represent the needs, nor the interest, of the whole community. While this clearly does not fix the problem, it diverges attention for some months. See what your paranoia inducing game has brough us CCP. This man is beyond repair, baseless assumptions made as to allow him to cling to the notion that 'the man' is out to get him. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
The Geoman	Posted - 2008.03.21 20:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Amethyst Rage "The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. " QFMFT As to the Council, it will likely serve to pacify some who believe that they are not being heard. But it will not change who is in charge, nor does it obligate those in charge of the game to listen, must less take action in that direction. It will place a layer between the devs and the players. Again, another way to pacify things, and also to give the impression of listening, without doing a thing. Then again, I am open to being wrong here. This experiment will happen whether I want it to or not, anyway
Loyal Servant Viper Intel Squad	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:07:00 - [24] Originally by: The Geoman Originally by: Amethyst Rage "The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. " QFMFT As to the Council, it will likely serve to pacify some who believe that they are not being heard. But it will not change who is in charge, nor does it obligate those in charge of the game to listen, must less take action in that direction. It will place a layer between the devs and the players. Again, another way to pacify things, and also to give the impression of listening, without doing a thing. Then again, I am open to being wrong here. This experiment will happen whether I want it to or not, anyway You get an A+. This idea is nothing more than a publicity stunt, and a really bad one. Any person that thinks this will get them to deal with some issue is nuts. This is, after all a business... They are not going to let players tell them how to improve things, that is why they have a marketing department that tells them what to add/change. Take the isk farmers/buyers/sellers issue.. say that comes up in these meetings. They will tell them: 'we are doing what we can, tough s--t go home now have a nice day' and leave it at that. I have read the docs on this 'council' and it's complete nonsense. You could compare this 'pseudo governing' body to the likes of red China... a.k.a communism. Do you guys REALLY think that CCP is going to listen to a bunch of people that play internet spaceships tell them how to do business? Meh... So, bottom line, there is NO better idea because this is a really stupid idea.
Karanth	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:23:00 - [25] Originally by: Asuka Smith Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 01:33:11 There is no need to delegate the voices of a few hundred thousands players to representatives. In a game like this the "issues" are pretty few and everyone is well acquainted with them. A better idea is to just have a poll when the feeling of hte public needs to be gauged. If CCP hires a single community service rep and has him do nothing but read the forums and see what is on peoples minds he should be able to see what people are concerned about (which ships people think need balancing, which mods, what skills people do not like, do people think CCP should spend more time on storyline etc)... Then, CCP implements an in-game polling system (another button on the far left that lets people see what polls are open to vote in). The rep then phrases the question in a poll... Ie. "Does the Ferox need another turret hard point?" "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" etc etc. That beats the pants off some obtuse delegate system that is ONLY going to be a corrupt joke that gives CCP a false impression of the general publics feelings... In short, there is absolutely no need to create a roundabout system for figuring out how players feel when it would be SO EASY to simply ask the players directly, eliminating corruption and allowing a pure undiluted look at how people feel. Get out. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. "Current Earth-Destruction Status"
000Hunter000	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:30:00 - [26] Nobody said ccp actually needs to do what the polls say, just like they actually don't have to do what the council says, but i rather have ccp put their proposals to the general public then to a bunch of elitists who only got there cuz they can force their alliance members to vote for them, but lets not get into that. The polls should just be a tool to get a general idea of what the masses think, to make sure it's not just us forumwhorriors they could mebbe implement it someway into the startup screen (i mean they have no problems implementing horrible adds into it apparently) _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Tsanse Kinske	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Amethyst Rage "The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. " Its amusing to imagine what Marx would think of his observations about a truly powerless 19th century working class being applied to a bunch of bored guys ****ing about a spaceship game they willingly spend a little of their monthly disposable income on. Mencken seems more appropriate. For instance... "Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage." * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Siresa Talesi	Posted - 2008.03.21 22:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Karanth Originally by: Asuka Smith Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 01:33:11 There is no need to delegate the voices of a few hundred thousands players to representatives. In a game like this the "issues" are pretty few and everyone is well acquainted with them. A better idea is to just have a poll when the feeling of hte public needs to be gauged. If CCP hires a single community service rep and has him do nothing but read the forums and see what is on peoples minds he should be able to see what people are concerned about (which ships people think need balancing, which mods, what skills people do not like, do people think CCP should spend more time on storyline etc)... Then, CCP implements an in-game polling system (another button on the far left that lets people see what polls are open to vote in). The rep then phrases the question in a poll... Ie. "Does the Ferox need another turret hard point?" "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" etc etc. That beats the pants off some obtuse delegate system that is ONLY going to be a corrupt joke that gives CCP a false impression of the general publics feelings... In short, there is absolutely no need to create a roundabout system for figuring out how players feel when it would be SO EASY to simply ask the players directly, eliminating corruption and allowing a pure undiluted look at how people feel. Get out. Such dismissal of other players' ideas and opinions is exactly why some feel the CSM to be a bad move. Thank you for proving the point. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Rialtor	Posted - 2008.03.21 22:15:00 - [29] Having any council being of the same demographic is bad. The point of a council is to have a diverse set of people come together and come to some sort of understanding. Juries, the supreme court, etc. ---- sig ---- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world... Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Crovan	Posted - 2008.03.21 23:23:00 - [30] Edited by: Crovan on 21/03/2008 23:23:30 Originally by: Asuka Smith Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 01:33:11 There is no need to delegate the voices of a few hundred thousands players to representatives. In a game like this the "issues" are pretty few and everyone is well acquainted with them. A better idea is to just have a poll when the feeling of hte public needs to be gauged. I disagree. First, the issues are many, and few, if any, are likely to be a s simple as they seem from the standpoint of the players. The forums lead to enough groupthink as it is. I personally don't know the mechanics behind CONCORD response rates, or exactly how security status is calculated. Maybe there are a few who do, but I am willing to hazard a guess that over 90% of players share my ignorance. Those are just two of the many issues linked to addressing the issue of suicide ganking. Additionally, polling provides a very poor alternative. One of the first things they teach you as a serious student of politics and social statistics is that you can make a poll say anything you want it to say, based on the structuring of questions and answers, and how you interpret results. I think that the polling idea makes the community much easier to ignore than a handful of real people given the mandate of representation by the player base, especially since these peoples' opinions (presumably) will not be pre-drafted by CCP, which is exactly what happens in a poll. Originally by: Asuka Smith If CCP hires a single community service rep and has him do nothing but read the forums and see what is on peoples minds he should be able to see what people are concerned about (which ships people think need balancing, which mods, what skills people do not like, do people think CCP should spend more time on storyline etc)... At the risk of sounding overly cynical, putting the power of deciding the opinion of the players based on the threads in this forum would ruin this game. Public opinion of various game aspects would be incredibly easy to manipulate by someone with a clever media campaign and a large enough member base to keep spreading the message. Besides, since we know that CCP reads the forums, how is this a significant change from the status quo? Originally by: Asuka Smith Then, CCP implements an in-game polling system (another button on the far left that lets people see what polls are open to vote in). The rep then phrases the question in a poll... Ie. "Does the Ferox need another turret hard point?" "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" etc etc. That beats the pants off some obtuse delegate system that is ONLY going to be a corrupt joke that gives CCP a false impression of the general publics feelings... How will it be corrupt? How will it be a joke? You're engaging in sophistry, not discourse. As I have stated many times, the going is likely to be rough for the first term or two of the CSM, but there's no need to scrap what I believe can be a fundamentally good idea just because of what could happen. I honestly think your polling suggestion creates a greater potential for disrupting the game community. Imagine that the "Are Vagabonds overpowered?" poll goes up. Every time someone gets killed by a Vagabond (hyperbole is intentional), there will be another tick for "Yes, definitely." Then, let's assume that the results are made public (which they would have to be in order for them to matter at all). 80% of people say yes, they are overpowered. Does that make them overpowered? Not necessarily. It's just that, unlike what you claim, people really are largely ignorant of the issues. Originally by: Asuka Smith In short, there is absolutely no need to create a roundabout system for figuring out how players feel when it would be SO EASY to simply ask the players directly, eliminating corruption and allowing a pure undiluted look at how people feel. Following this idea to a logical conclusion, a number of representative governments around the world need an overhaul, too. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. The Drone Bay Podcast

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