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Deathhawk	Posted - 2008.03.21 13:55:00 - [1] does anyone tank this ship? still goes pretty fast and does good dmg.. tanked would be good for gang maybe? what are your thoguhts? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. MAFIA Website I ROCK - DH
Dragonzchilde	Posted - 2008.03.21 13:59:00 - [2] speed = vaga's tank Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Elles D	Posted - 2008.03.21 14:13:00 - [3] yeh as it stands don't try changing the cookie cutter unless you got a gistii small sb; it just works so well. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Deathhawk MAFIA	Posted - 2008.03.21 14:37:00 - [4] Originally by: Elles D yeh as it stands don't try changing the cookie cutter unless you got a gistii small sb; it just works so well. i dont wanna fly the cookie cutter i want somthing different :) so im trying it. i have a few nano ships already dont want another and am a bit bored of them aswell (well not my cynabal) . MAFIA Website I ROCK - DH
Odium47	Posted - 2008.03.21 15:37:00 - [5] Tank ?!? LOL. Vaga never had a tank, and now with the happy boosts it's tank is worth than ever. Speed tank you say?! What speed tank? Remember the speed nerfs, plus speed is not a tank, just a way to avoid getting hit. Tanking means taking hits and rezisting. Anyway, maybe some people will think, it's still a good heavy tacler. No, it is not ! Has too small scan resolution.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 15:43:00 - [6] It has a speed bonus, and (along with its tech 1 and faction variants) the smallest mass of any cruiser-sized ship in the game. Take the hint.
Odium47 W33D Corp. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.21 15:56:00 - [7] Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Oh, sure, you can fit nanofibers instead of gyro, but hope to do some damage and pray your drones will be able to keep up. I will continue to use Vaga even it is not as efficient as before, hoping to find ways to use it better than CCP anticipated. Start counting people that used vaga before and now switched to somthing else. Vaga has become obsolete.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/03/2008 16:20:08 Originally by: Odium47 Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least.
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/03/2008 16:20:08 Originally by: Odium47 Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least. Ah no. No No No. DPS that an ishtar can make at 3600 m/s? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make at 7000 (or 3600)? Under a t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make out of heavy neut range? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make out of heavy neut range? Under t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make when TD/jammed/dampnened? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make when TD/jammed/dampened? Under t1 frig. DPS of an ishtar when recon webbed/neutered? 100% DPS of a vagabond when recon webbed/neutered? Under t1 frig. And no, the you can kill the ishtars drones is not a valid argument. The ishtar will have more than one flight. Kill the 5 lights drones of the vagabond and you've killed 1/3rd of its dps. The 7000 m/s of the vaga in combat is pretty worthless. If an interceptor manages to get close and web you, you are pretty much dead in 99% of the setups. I could go on a bit more but what for... Minmatar Boost Brigade
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/03/2008 16:20:08 Originally by: Odium47 Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least. Ah no. No No No. DPS that an ishtar can make at 3600 m/s? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make at 7000 (or 3600)? Under a t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make out of heavy neut range? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make out of heavy neut range? Under t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make when TD/jammed/dampnened? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make when TD/jammed/dampened? Under t1 frig. DPS of an ishtar when recon webbed/neutered? 100% DPS of a vagabond when recon webbed/neutered? Under t1 frig. And no, the you can kill the ishtars drones is not a valid argument. The ishtar will have more than one flight. Kill the 5 lights drones of the vagabond and you've killed 1/3rd of its dps. The 7000 m/s of the vaga in combat is pretty worthless. If an interceptor manages to get close and web you, you are pretty much dead in 99% of the setups. I could go on a bit more but what for... Of course none of that is relevant to either what I wrote or to the post I was replying to, but thanks anyway,
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:39:00 - [11] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 21/03/2008 16:39:01 Originally by: Vanessa Vale Ah no. No No No. DPS that an ishtar can make at 3600 m/s? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make at 7000 (or 3600)? Under a t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make out of heavy neut range? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make out of heavy neut range? Under t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make when TD/jammed/dampnened? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make when TD/jammed/dampened? Under t1 frig. DPS of an ishtar when recon webbed/neutered? 100% DPS of a vagabond when recon webbed/neutered? Under t1 frig. And no, the you can kill the ishtars drones is not a valid argument. The ishtar will have more than one flight. Kill the 5 lights drones of the vagabond and you've killed 1/3rd of its dps. The 7000 m/s of the vaga in combat is pretty worthless. If an interceptor manages to get close and web you, you are pretty much dead in 99% of the setups. I could go on a bit more but what for... Derail much? How about you answer the question he asked, because you havent: "Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least." -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Victor Ivanov	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:27:00 - [12] Quote: [Ishtar, nano] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Power Diagnostic System II Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Capacitor Battery II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 150mm Railgun II, Iron Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Iron Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Iron Charge S 'Beatnik' Small Remote Armor Repair System I [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I Berserker II x5 5200km/s, no implants when overloaded, base speed of 3600m/s with NO hardwirings that would cost you maybe 50 mill total. Dps from the berserkers is less than from the Ogre II's, but berserkers have the advantage of being very quick and can therefore be recalled and repaired when engaged to survive longer. I would generally invest in a TS warp disruptor, for the 28km+ orbit range and staying out of neuting range, but it is not required. The cap recharge is enough to be able to cycle your mwd even when neuted to escape most if not all ships. Picking your targets is key (just as with all pvp). Dps with ogres is 500. Can perma run its mwd and run all of its active mods for 10 minutes+. Much higher realistic speed than the vagabond due to the aforementioned advantages of full damage+larger range+immunity to neuts+permarunning mwd+higher dps than a fully skilled vagabond. Sooo. All in all though, I went through the same as you did, OP. The Vagabond is a fun ship, but the cookiecutter setup suffers from many many flaws and is so easy to counter these days that pimping them out becomes less and less feasible. This is why many started searching for alternative setups. Tanking is a definite no no due to its crappy capacitor, and buffer tanking is impossible as well, since that would require some dps to break your target before you. EFT Warriors will tell you that the vagabond does 350dps, but they forget that a vagabond is ALWAYS in falloff, thus the EFT figure needs to be mititigated by a substantial amount. With a base falloff range of 20km, and the usual engagement range of a vagabond being around 17.5km, your damage will be around 60-70% of your maxiumum potential. Realistic damage output on a vagabond is therefore around 250dps, with a 40dps passive tank. Comparing this to the Ishtars easy 500 dps, perma speed tank (Vagabond caps out within a minute or two. Not that it matters though, since it can't hit anything wiht its mwd on). Now, to the alternative. Falloff rigs! It's such an easy adjustment, but it makes a huge difference and has rekindled my love for the vagabond. 30km falloff with Barrage M is pretty much the equivalent of adding a gyrostabilizer to your damage, as well as offering a wide array of new tactical strategies. Emp M falloff range of 20km is pretty nice against those pesky interceptors, for example, while still retaining almost the same speed as a polycarbed vaga at MUCH lower price. Lower price + higher dps + better range + around the same speed= a much better setup than the cookiecutter vaga's. ---------------------- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Dianeces	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Derail much? How about you answer the question he asked, because you havent: "Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least." When can I expect a replacement irony-meter? Something in this thread just broke mine. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Elles D	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Deathhawk Originally by: Elles D yeh as it stands don't try changing the cookie cutter unless you got a gistii small sb; it just works so well. i dont wanna fly the cookie cutter i want somthing different :) so im trying it. i have a few nano ships already dont want another and am a bit bored of them aswell (well not my cynabal) . Fair enough, but it will die qickly.... Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.03.21 18:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Of course none of that is relevant to either what I wrote or to the post I was replying to, but thanks anyway, You're welcome. [:D ]Anyway, yes it is relevant as it puts those omg 3000 m/s difference between both ships in the right context. The ishtar does not need more speed. And the vagabond cannot use it except for attempting to run away, and even then that speed is less useful than the ishtars. Minmatar Boost Brigade
Guygeboe	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:23:00 - [16] thx! I almos finished Minmatar cruiser lvl 5 I'm gonna cry.
Trader Jjoe	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:24:00 - [17] Is it that you want something different, or specifically want something different to do with a vaga? I cannot seriously think of what to do different with a vaga that would actually not get pwned rather quickly. Let's think out loud. Lets say you stuck a MARII in the lows and armor tanked it. What would could you do with 4 medium slots? mwd,disruptor,web,CAPsomething. You would get a relatively fast tackle but even with a capsomething in the mids, I think you would lose cap fast and would not have great tanking. What if you added 2 medium Nos to the equation? Probably not enough grid to actually have much left to fill the rest of the slots with guns. Really tough to think of effective alternative uses for the vaga. The vaga is after all best suited as a barricuda. By the way, I can fly all Gallente/Minnie hacs and recons. I have the most fun with the Vaga, but in 90% of kills, my Ishtar buddie have done literally 3-5 times the amount of damage I have done. And no this is not a skill issue - I have level 5 in every skill that applies ot the vagabond's damage and speed except one that is level 4. (that will be level 5 in two weeks). The exception to these situations are small ships. Because the damage of the vaga is generally faster if you are within 20k, (you lock and start firing faster), I do tend to tear up dictors, frigs, etc much better. But cruisers are the border line. If they have any tank, Ishtar will do more damage. Battle Cruisers and up, Ishtar will do more damage. It is simply the fact that their drones do 100% damage once they get on the target whereas the fact we are all crusing around at 4-7k means I am doing small damagge. And no, I cant slow down to do damge or come in close in order not to be webbed or pwned my some BS's big guns/torps. Good gang will have both but these days is heavier in Ishtars because of pure dps advantage. Vaga is far from obsolete, but its best used in gang to shred small stuff quickly. If you are really bored, why not cross train into a slightly different role such as SacTackle etc. Maybe you have already done this?
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Reem Fairchild Of course none of that is relevant to either what I wrote or to the post I was replying to, but thanks anyway, You're welcome. [:D ]Anyway, yes it is relevant as it puts those omg 3000 m/s difference between both ships in the right context. The ishtar does not need more speed. And the vagabond cannot use it except for attempting to run away, and even then that speed is less useful than the ishtars. And again none of that is relevant to what the person I was replying to was saying and how incorrect he was. You're debating something that was not in dispute to begin with.
Odium47	Posted - 2008.03.21 19:53:00 - [19] What is the point in hunting smaller and slower ships...anyone can kill slower and smaller ships. The issues is Vaga was never intended to be tanked. By nerfing the speed, CCP nerfed its last way of defending properly. Even before, a vaga could not mwd for more than 90 sec. The last straw was the general lowering for the explosive rezistence.
Deathhawk	Posted - 2008.03.21 21:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Trader Jjoe stuff yeah im trying something different atm and have used other nano ships like the ishtar which i liked very much. and with the damage of the ishtar being awesome will still fly it alot.. (i got highest damage on a carrier kill with just drones over a brutix). i fly 3 races recons gal/ama/min.. so far i havent used the vaga in pvp only got it this morning and i have fitted it to tank :/ with 1 mar.. not sure how it is gonna work out but in a gang i think it should last a while. but the damage mod is still pretty high and hits of 80-90 each turret every 2.2 secs seems to be ok for me. i think this ship is far from obsolete.. all ships can be good in different situations. and if people expect this ship to be nanoed they might get a little surprise when they think they have an easy target.. :D hope this makes sense and it might not have answered any questions n stuff b ut i have had a beer (1 atleast) Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. MAFIA Website I ROCK - DH
Katarlia Simov Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.03.22 00:06:00 - [21] Can i throw into the mix the fact that the vaga actually does armor tank as well as the munin aside from the cap ? Generally speaking there isn't any other fit for a vaga than speed. You will waste your bonuses if you don't nano it. Thats basically all there is to it.
Drek Grapper	Posted - 2008.03.22 00:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Derail much? How about you answer the question he asked, because you havent: "Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least." When can I expect a replacement irony-meter? Something in this thread just broke mine. Lol. --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this
nakKEDK	Posted - 2008.03.22 03:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/03/2008 16:20:08 Originally by: Odium47 Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Explain to me how am Ishtar gets anywhere near 4 km/s without the kind of expensive gear that would have a Vagabond going at 7-8 at least. Ah no. No No No. DPS that an ishtar can make at 3600 m/s? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make at 7000 (or 3600)? Under a t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make out of heavy neut range? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make out of heavy neut range? Under t1 frig. DPS that an ishtar can make when TD/jammed/dampnened? 100% DPS that a vagabond can make when TD/jammed/dampened? Under t1 frig. DPS of an ishtar when recon webbed/neutered? 100% DPS of a vagabond when recon webbed/neutered? Under t1 frig. And no, the you can kill the ishtars drones is not a valid argument. The ishtar will have more than one flight. Kill the 5 lights drones of the vagabond and you've killed 1/3rd of its dps. The 7000 m/s of the vaga in combat is pretty worthless. If an interceptor manages to get close and web you, you are pretty much dead in 99% of the setups. I could go on a bit more but what for... so who wins when it's vaga vs ishtar? And yes kill the drones is kinda valid argument, and you didnt speak of the flight time of the fast ogres, and why didnt you speak of the vagas ability to get out? I mean if ishtar faces a nanozealot, vagabond, huginn, rapier, any decent ceptor and so on, its Dead or trapped.. btw, if you orbit at 3000m/s at 20 km you will be able to squeeze out ~350 dps. at 7000m/s it will be more like 190 dps. but who orbits that fast anyways :) k
Deathhawk MAFIA	Posted - 2008.03.22 10:48:00 - [24] just one point now ive tested the armor tanked vaga.... DONT DO IT end. MAFIA Website I ROCK - DH
5h4dy	Posted - 2008.03.22 11:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Odium47 Keep believing that...Vaga was never a heavy assault, more like a Fast Assault. Since it didn't fit in the HAC profile, people started to complain. The result was obviously a nerf that leveled all the ships instead of keeping Vaga's advantage. I know people that fitted 2 gyros on low but can't get above 4500m/s with a Vaga(all the skills at L4), while a nano Ishtar with no speed skills have almost 4000 m/s. Now, please enlighten me, where is the vagabond's advantage. Oh, sure, you can fit nanofibers instead of gyro, but hope to do some damage and pray your drones will be able to keep up. I will continue to use Vaga even it is not as efficient as before, hoping to find ways to use it better than CCP anticipated. Start counting people that used vaga before and now switched to somthing else. Vaga has become obsolete. I fit 2 gyros on my vaga and i still get over 6k/ms with no expensive gear, you do know that the vaga has 5 low slots? The vaga isnt absolete, its a very good and dangeros ship in the right hands and for all the people who say the vaga cant hit ships while orbiting must have realy poor skills or dont actualy fly the vaga, because anyting above a frig i can hit pretty ok at between 15-20km going at 3500m/s
Msobe	Posted - 2008.03.22 12:54:00 - [26] I thought all Minnie pilots got the memo. You're supposed to be cross training to Amarr ships, while complaining bitterly that each Amarr ship horribly outclasses its minmatar equivalent in every conceivable manner.

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