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Frosty9 Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:22:00 - [1] Title says it all. In ur opinion what is the most effective recon ship. For fleet, gate camps, roaming gangs, etc. My pick would be the Falcon/Rook for fleet and gate camps and the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:26:00 - [2] Falcon for all situations, and the Curse/Huginn for solo'ing. The Huginn also comes into its own against nano gangs, if you can stay alive. That usually involves Falcons (see above). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
annoing MisFunk Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:28:00 - [3] Originally by: Frosty9 the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs. Please..... The 2 most worthless and useless ships in that class are Curse and Pilgrim. The pilgrim is useless because of the NOS nerf. You can no longer rep cos you cant re-fuel your cap. If you usde a cap boost you lose a slot which you cant afford to do. It cant probe, its slow, and it lacks dps. Its a pile of donkeys po0. The Curse is even worse in its class. I made the mistake of training Amarr Recons, wish i'd saved the isk and time. The best thing you can do is train caldari cruiser lvl5 and go down that route. Amarr = sh1t ships Dwi Cymraig According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians. Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:32:00 - [4] Originally by: annoing Please..... The 2 most worthless and useless ships in that class are Curse and Pilgrim. The pilgrim is useless because of the NOS nerf. You can no longer rep cos you cant re-fuel your cap. If you usde a cap boost you lose a slot which you cant afford to do. It cant probe, its slow, and it lacks dps. Its a pile of donkeys po0. The Curse is even worse in its class. I made the mistake of training Amarr Recons, wish i'd saved the isk and time. The best thing you can do is train caldari cruiser lvl5 and go down that route. Amarr = sh1t ships This is just you whining because you haven't found out how to use the Curse since the nos nerf (though nobody in their right mind suggests that the Pilgrim has a role anymore). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:48:00 - [5] Considering the performance of the Curses during the Tournament (for example during the tournament final) the Curse is still cutting it when it comes to shutting down cap-dependent ships. However, when it comes to actual EVE pvp nothing beats a falcon when it comes to recon support. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:01:00 - [6] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Frosty9 the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs. Please..... The 2 most worthless and useless ships in that class are Curse and Pilgrim. The pilgrim is useless because of the NOS nerf. You can no longer rep cos you cant re-fuel your cap. If you usde a cap boost you lose a slot which you cant afford to do. It cant probe, its slow, and it lacks dps. Its a pile of donkeys po0. The Curse is even worse in its class. I made the mistake of training Amarr Recons, wish i'd saved the isk and time. The best thing you can do is train caldari cruiser lvl5 and go down that route. Amarr = sh1t ships Your own ineptitude at playing the game as a whole does not damn a ship class.
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:23:00 - [7] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Frosty9 the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs. Please..... The 2 most worthless and useless ships in that class are Curse and Pilgrim. The pilgrim is useless because of the NOS nerf. You can no longer rep cos you cant re-fuel your cap. If you usde a cap boost you lose a slot which you cant afford to do. It cant probe, its slow, and it lacks dps. Its a pile of donkeys po0. The Curse is even worse in its class. I made the mistake of training Amarr Recons, wish i'd saved the isk and time. The best thing you can do is train caldari cruiser lvl5 and go down that route. Amarr = sh1t ships if you say that curse is useless.. mybe you are just a clueless nub who cant fit hes ships right ? curse rocks in gangs... neut the enemy cap and let it break apart. pilgrim needs abit of a boost ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:28:00 - [8] Depends on your usage. Falcon in a gang, solo is all ****y. Too lazy to logon to chk stats of rook. Curse then rapier good in gang. Curse then rapier/hugin for solo. Pilgrim is still usable but it can go wrong in no time at all, pretty much solo. Arazu/lachesis bottom of the pile for me in solo and gang. All the above can flucuate slightly depending on your foe.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Arazu/lachesis bottom of the pile for me in solo and gang. Oh how the mighty have fallen... I haven't even seen an Arazu in ages. And that from pre-dampnerf where solo arazus and small gangs of recons (invariably including arazus) were so common you couldn't spit without hitting one. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Oh how the mighty have fallen... I haven't even seen an Arazu in ages. And that from pre-dampnerf where solo arazus and small gangs of recons (invariably including arazus) were so common you couldn't spit without hitting one. Heh, yeah. I still own a few rigged Arazus back in Empire. I doubt I'll undock them again anytime soon. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

Noisrevbus Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 00:46:00 - [11] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 24/03/2008 00:54:38 So i had this four thousand character post written. I hit the limit and as i was doing some selective copy-pasting i managed to hit some ****** 'select all + erase' hotkey. It happen to me more often than you'd think, and i have yet to understand what it is, like slipping and hitting end+delete or something? Instantly marking up the entire text and erasing it. Regardless, let me try to recap a bit shorter... Caldari: The Falcon have a very specialized role, yet a commonly accepted role. It's strength and weaknesses do not change as the situation it's put in changes. Some people mistake that for being overpowered, though this ship clearly have weaknesses that can be exploited. The Rook suffer two mild forms of issues that are similar to both of the Gallente ships and the Pilgrim. It has conflicting bonuses and it operates often underappreciated positions. Minmatar: Probably have the strongest couple. Both ships perform their roles exceptionally well. Wether or not their roles are more or less allround applicable than the Falcon's i leave unsaid - it's a question of preference and how you value different areas of the game, or different environments. Both ships' allround application is astounding and their bonuses combine well with the ship attributes. They are the kings of their role and good ships even beyond that. Gallente: Their biggest issue right now is the pilots' lack of adaption; that they have yet not adapted to the changes. Their second issue is that they operate at often underappreciated ranges. This however lead to the simple fact that the ships themselves have become underappreciated for what they do - not to be mistaken for being bad. Which is a fate shared by one of their bonused modules, the RSD. Tackling from afar while being able to weaken their opponent, as opposed to effectively shut their opponents out (as in Rev). Not the module, nor the ships, were intended to play that previous role though. Then as noted, that the void between immidiate scrimmage and sniping is not commonly utilized, is an issue. It is a general issue however, and alot of ships that excel at those ranges are often underappreciated. It's not a problem limited to Gallente Recons (ships with weapon range bonuses, falloff or optimal, and most missile ships often suffer the same problem). Amarr:** Possibly have the best Combat Recon. While some posters seem to argue out of a perspective that lack the same adaption as was mentioned just above, the Curse is truly an outstanding ship within it's trade. Similar to the Minmatar ships it's general application may be a bit of a question of how you value filling several roles, or how you value different situations and environments in the game. It is however a ship that have an amazing allround composition and bonuses that blend very well into it's attributes. The Pilgrim - as many other players have pointed out already - is the black sheep of the Recon class. It breaks the pattern, and it does it in many ways up to a point of being a bit amusing. It's opposite to the other races in how it as a Force recon do not outclass it's Combat recon brother. It's opposite to the Curse in how the Curse's bonuses have a superb synergy, while the Pilgrim's bonuses have no synergy at all. It's similar to the Rook in that way, but is affected much more. It's cloak bonus and it's TD bonus is in direct contratiction to it's drain bonus. If it's vampiric suction bonus was replaced with a vampiric range bonus, it would not only (appropriately enough) suck less, it would potentially become a good ship.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.03.24 00:48:00 - [12] For gang work, I don't think anything is more useful than a Rapier. The main problem with the Arazu is that dictors do a similar job.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Noisrevbus The Rook suffer two mild forms of issues that are similar to both of the Gallente ships and the Pilgrim. It has conflicting bonuses and it operates often underappreciated positions. Quite simply, it's impossible to not appreciate any position you put a Rook or Falcon in. Quote: Gallente: Their biggest issue right now is the pilots' lack of adaption; that they have yet not adapted to the changes. I assure you that it isn't for lack of trying. Quote: Tackling from afar while being able to weaken their opponent, as opposed to effectively shut their opponents out (as in Rev) The problem is that it actually does not weaken the opponent. Damps, and the Celestis, Arazu, and Lachesis in particular, were over nerfed. Seriously, even a rigged and max-skilled Arazu does approximately half of what an unrigged thrasher does with Damps these days. Unless you're operating in conjunction with another recon or Falcon, there is no reason at all to fit damps to an Arazu. Take advantage of the warp disruptor bonus and fit TD's, ECM, or a shield tank. Quote: Then as noted, that the void between immidiate scrimmage and sniping is not commonly utilized, is an issue. I'm honestly not sure where you're going here, but you seem to be implying that the damp bonused ships should be used against snipers. Unfortunately, damps don't go that far. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Bodhisattvas Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 24/03/2008 00:54:38 Wrote a bunch of meaningless stuff but still couldn't make a proper argument.
Noisrevbus Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:37:00 - [15] When quoted like that, I guess im obliged to reiterate? I'll try. Quote: Quite simply, it's impossible to not appreciate any position you put a Rook or Falcon in. Im sure you can put a Rook at range, the question remain as to why you would. What i'm trying to point out is that the Rook sport bonuses for shorter range gameplay while ECM is long range. I don't deny that you can use ECM at shorter ranges, rather with the Rook im embracing that, but midrange is an underappreciated position. Quote: The problem is that it actually does not weaken the opponent. Damps, and the Celestis, Arazu, and Lachesis in particular, were over nerfed. Seriously, even a rigged and max-skilled Arazu does approximately half of what an unrigged thrasher does with Damps these days. You mean to tell me that the bonuses are negative? and these Recons damp worse than unbonsed ships? I must have missed something very important then. In such a case though, it sounds more like a bug than a malbalance, if the bonus makes the module worse. What am i missing? Quote: I'm honestly not sure where you're going here, but you seem to be implying that the damp bonused ships should be used against snipers. Unfortunately, damps don't go that far. Not at all, it's virtually the same comment im hinting about there above. In order to get discussion going i guess we need to make a sample definition. Let's assume people think in 4 archetypical ranges in the game. Immidate tackle range (0-20km), and Extended tackle range (20-40km) make up what is generally considered short. Everything from 40km to 150km is mid range. Beyond 150km is sniping range. What i'm trying to say is that in most situations in this game there is often little value given to the mid ranges (or so have been my experience). Most combat is done in short range, the necessity to tackle combined with environmental combat around gates and stations. Sniping can be done solo or in smaller gangs, at least from a defensive position - but it isn't in favoured in any way until you reach fleet combat, and territorial warfare, where sniping is almost a required tool. Thus, regardless of what you do in this game, the ranges between 50 and 150 km will commonly be the least populated, and ships who excel within those ranges are usually underappreciated. For sake of simplicity alot of fleet warfare seem organised around sniping and tackling, to cope with the complex situation of utilizing large numbers (and lag). Ships that excel within the extended tackle range usually benefit from that, but ships that have slightly longer range but not long enough range do not really have many positional advantages as the game is built up, at present. Thus the entire range is uncommon, often overlooked and underappreciated - while there are ships that thrive in that range, as they have range bonuses that doesn't allow them to perform standardized long range sniping. Are you with me? The numbers were chosen for several reasons, but im holding out on explaining them since i belive most people understand the general notion, and then the numbers are not important.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Noisrevbus What i'm trying to point out is that the Rook sport bonuses for shorter range gameplay while ECM is long range. Originally by: Rook Bonuses[/quote Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level and 5% bonus to heavy and light missile kinetic damage. Are you referring to the damage bonus? It's to discourage tacklers. Quote: You mean to tell me that the bonuses are negative? and these Recons damp worse than unbonsed ships? No, I said that a rigged Arazu now damps about as well as an unrigged thrasher before the nerf. Also, the fact that users of damps no longer have any sort of buffer. Once someone's under your damps, they "instalock", entirely unhampered. Also, you can't use the Arazu to in any way help your gang mates, because theyll (generally speaking) be closer than the requisite 20+ km most people get while damped these days. Quote: Alot of useless analysis related to combat ranges. Are you with me? The numbers were chosen for several reasons, but im holding out on explaining them since i belive most people understand the general notion, and then the numbers are not important. Um, Yeah, I know what you're saying, I just don't know why you're bothering to. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Noisrevbus Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.24 03:34:00 - [17] Quote: Are you referring to the damage bonus? It's to discourage tacklers. Both yes and no. Yes i am. No it doesn discourage tacklers. It still underperform the other ECM ships in cost/efficiency, up to a point where it isn't used. Quote: No, I said that a rigged Arazu now damps about as well as an unrigged thrasher before the nerf. Also, the fact that users of damps no longer have any sort of buffer. Once someone's under your damps, they "instalock", entirely unhampered. And what bearing do that have on today's game? The ships were changed to accomodate for the module change. That's sort of my main point here, or what i belive was CCP's intention behind the changes. To make the RSD a module for midranged ships to knock other ships out of that general range, or possibly down to the 'extended tackle range', but never to be so effective that ships virtually got no lock range at all and could even lock unbonused ships in tackle range. Quote: Also, you can't use the Arazu to in any way help your gang mates, because theyll (generally speaking) be closer than the requisite 20+ km most people get while damped these days. Quote: Um, Yeah, I know what you're saying, I just don't know why you're bothering to. I'm bothering because i belive this is their intention with the RSD, the role CCP percieve it to assume. Dampening down other ships in mid range (or ships with base sensors) below the range they intend these ships to operate from. That's also the way it would help gang mates, as anyone positioned 50-150km away from the target could hit it without it being able to lock any of them back. As odd as it may seem, i honestly belive they were thinking along those lines when they made the changes. Most gangmates are not at those positions though, and are not under threat from ships in those positions, and that is the problem as long as we assume that an RSD bird is intended to sit at 60km. Much for the same reason that any ship that have it's optimal range within those ranges is not very appreciated. The game lack content for ships shooting 40-150km, changing the RSD was for those ships to assume roles in such formations. The day when players actually utilize groups that preferrably sit 60km (let's say 50-100km) from a target, the Gallente recons will both have friends to support and enemies to weaken.
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.03.24 05:08:00 - [18] Not the pilgrim. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Gneeznow SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.03.24 06:27:00 - [19] 425 II autocannon rapier is good fun solo Curse is good for solo or if your a small gang going after capitals Falcon for pure gang support
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.24 06:32:00 - [20] In this order: 1.Depends on situation(caldari/amarr/min) 2.Depends on situation(caldari/amarr/min) 3.Depends on situation(caldari/amarr/min) 4.Gallente Recon

joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.24 07:14:00 - [21] Originally by: annoing Originally by: Frosty9 the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs. Please..... The 2 most worthless and useless ships in that class are Curse and Pilgrim. The pilgrim is useless because of the NOS nerf. You can no longer rep cos you cant re-fuel your cap. If you usde a cap boost you lose a slot which you cant afford to do. It cant probe, its slow, and it lacks dps. Its a pile of donkeys po0. The Curse is even worse in its class. I made the mistake of training Amarr Recons, wish i'd saved the isk and time. The best thing you can do is train caldari cruiser lvl5 and go down that route. Amarr = sh1t ships The curse is amazing ... u just sux. Fyi curse would prolly beat every other recon appart from if its perma jammed by a rook. Uber idea solves all !!
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.24 10:25:00 - [22] I took my well fitted Curse for a ride today in a gang and I found out that it is totally useless. The cap bonus it gets means nothing when you can totally out dmg a single targets tank. This is why all other recons are better in a gang role than what the curse can offer. Where the curse thrives is it very small gangs where you can destroy the targets tank by taking its cap. Though some will suggest that the Huginn would be a must more worthwhile ship to have.
Squatdog DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.03.24 10:27:00 - [23] Nano-Curse is a SOLOPWNMOBILE which uses missiles and drones to dish out the pain independent of tracking while having a boosted Neut to *****enemy capacitors. It does require the MWD to be overloaded or a snake set to reach the magic 4600ms mark, however... [yellow]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigato
Annowyn Clan'Destine	Posted - 2008.03.24 10:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Bodhisattvas Arazu/lachesis bottom of the pile for me in solo and gang. Oh how the mighty have fallen... I haven't even seen an Arazu in ages. And that from pre-dampnerf where solo arazus and small gangs of recons (invariably including arazus) were so common you couldn't spit without hitting one. I saw an Azura in a belt skirmish a few days ago. Yeah, it died.
Deathhawk MAFIA	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:21:00 - [25] Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: annoing Originally by: Frosty9 the curse/pilgrim (pilgrim needs a boost though) for roaming gangs. The curse is amazing ... u just sux. Fyi curse would prolly beat every other recon appart from if its perma jammed by a rook. the rook shouldnt be able to get a cycle off ;) well if in pilgrim anyway if your in the curse it will see you coming. pilgrim rapier curse huginn i think they are the best in that order... pilgrim could do with a little boost on range but thats it. MAFIA Website I ROCK - DH
Atius Tirawa	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:33:00 - [26] Liang is a little harsh on the Arazu (Gallente) recons, but I can attest to their invaluable addition to the group. The situation involves a 13vs16 fight and I am in a Rapier. We had a falcon, 2 curses, myself in a Rapier, a huggin pilot and an Arazu pilot. The Falcon jams the high damage targets, battleships, battlecruisers, the 2 curses neut targets and break their tank, they also use TDs on targets with turrets, I am there keeping things geled, making sure nothing gets too fast, and the arazu kept me alive. And this is the lesson: the Arazu may not be as effective in shutting down ships like the falcon or curse are, but against smaller ships they are devistating. The new arazu pilot needs to be smart. Liang's being upset at the current state of Arazu's is understandable, but, they are still effective ships. If I were you, I would train for the Curse. You are Amarr and the drone skills will help you in the future. The Curse can break a tank in a second, deals good dps for a recon, and has TDs - it can effectivly do multiple things rather then concentrate on one or two targets. You could be damaging one ship, TDing another, and neuting a third. Its effective against nano gangs, it can be nanoed itself. I know that without our two curses, it would have taken a lot longer to kill the larger targets. The Pilgrim is a problem though. . . I would not fly that ship in its current state. ----------- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


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