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Strikeclone	Posted - 2004.04.16 13:59:00 - [31] Shadowsord it seem sthat i have not been quite clear enough for you. let my try and be a bit more specific. I dont think you can ever "balance" Massive online games, especially ones with as infinite scope as Eve. I think what i was trying to say in my earlier post is that the idea of each ship type and cvlass in Eve can be taken to different places by pilots. I would like to see battleships that have massive firepower with the capabilities to mount large amounts of weapons,mods, and everything. The whole concept of a battleship is that it is a a mobile firebase capable of independent action against any threat. In historic naval engagements it was quickly found that strikecraft (fighters/bombers etc) and small ships like destroyers and frigates could, in numbers take on these ships. In doing so the attackers would inveriably take heavy casualties, however in the brutal economics of war several small relativly cheap ships/fighters lost for the capture/disabling/destruction of a battleship was deemed acceptable. Later refits of cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships were adapted to mount a variety of smaller weapons like the guns i mentioned (20mm-8inch). Modern ships still maintain this ability although there are exceptions most modern warships carry missles rather than guns due to the speed and armaments of modern strikecraft. But almost all ships are armed with at least a last chance cannon like the famous "Phalax" radar guided rotary cannon. Many more ships carry short ranged fast deence missles such as "Seawolf", "Seadart" to name but a few. Now that i have bored the reader with these facts, let me return to my point. I believe, as do many of my corp that the combat system in Eve has been hopelessly left behind by developements and infact had not been fully thought out. in space does calibre of the weapon make any real difference in space? i would argue not as you are firing over 1000's of km and all fire with the exception of laser type weapons will have to be lead onto the target due to flight speed of the rounds and the target and also sensor lag. So in this way you coul dhave a system which is similar in many ways to WW2 gun fights and ack ack barrages, there are many instances where a ships main guns have been used with fused shells as massive ack ack guns and been successfull. Eve lacks any kind of damage to sub systems that actually effect the ship, my scorpion was resently reduced to less than 10% structure but every system on that ship was functioning at 100%. i understand that to implement a system of sub-system damage and effects may adversely effect game speed etc. However not having this function removes a part of a small ships function. How many ships have been lost in combat due to damaged rudder, engines, flooding etc? and how much of that damage is caused by small ships mounting torpedoes/bombs/rockets? I think the question we could be asking ourselves is where are we going with the whole ship construction and combat. Each ship in Eve has its own description, how many of these actually match the performance of the ships? for example here is the discription of the blackbird "The Blackbird is a small high-tech cruiser newly employed by the Caldari Navy. What it lacks in armor strength it more than makes up with maneuverability and stealth. The Blackbird is not intended for head-on slugfests, but rather delicate tactical situations." for anyone who ever piloted the blackbird is it A small B maneuverable C stealthy? i beleive the same can be said for many of hte ships. Define what sort of combat you want and how you want it to feel and then build ships to fill roles in that combat. Ships dont always have to have a good "balanced" by a bad. that is so "Gamesworkshop" <- trademark. I personally resent that ships are not tougher and cant mount more guns. I like the idea of a combine approach of WW2 and modern naval ideas in Eve. I want all ships to have more mounts with different sizes on the same ship i.e. a cruiser mounting 2-4 medium mounts and 2-4 small mounts. Firepower should be relevant to size, battleships should have massive amounts of firepower with all mount sizes avaliable in varing numbers depending on the specific role of that class. I would like to see better use of stealth and sensors in combat. the ability of a ship to detect and track a target versus the targets ability to avoid detection, break locks, and avoid fire with speed agility. There are other factors in any battle and that is the man behind the gun, before anyone bores me with the whole "pod" thing think again that idea is a game mechanic so that you can control the ship directly. The addition of crews to the game is being discussed i think elswhere on forums but crew skills have been historically better on frigates/destroyers due to their small size and the fact that they see more action and active service than the big boys. Bah run out of space lol thx for reading. Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower" C.A.G. website http://bosie.proboards40.com/
Imhotep Wade	Posted - 2004.04.16 14:38:00 - [32] if you want to see a game with good subsystem damage and consumption of resources system, look at UniversalCombat. bc3000ad.com. its not an mmorpg, and it lacks a lot of the life of eve. But it has so many things right, the community won't let it die. When subsystems are damaged, it requires the same ore that built them to repair them. That is a new active shot in the economy, instead of only requiring ISK to repair ships. Somethings can not be repaired and must be replaced. Again, a boost for the economy.
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2004.04.16 15:33:00 - [33] Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 16/04/2004 15:36:51 removed, no use The changes are fine with me, I'll just equip two ³ber small guns instead of defender launchers as those are fubared anyway.
Rask	Posted - 2004.04.16 17:28:00 - [34] I think you may have been right, What I was trying to say was that more slots on a battle ship are not needed. What is needed is players to swap out some of there large guns for smaller ones. I firmly belive that a BS equiped with nothing but large guns should go down to a frigate. It will be a long battle but if the battle ship has nothing to shoot a small ship with it should lose.
Strikeclone	Posted - 2004.04.16 18:42:00 - [35] I see what you are saying Rask but I dont think the combat has been thought out enough and this has had an adverse effect on the ship designs. It seems to me that frigs/cruisers/battleships have been designed and tested on the assumption that each weapon slot will equip a small/medium/large weapon. If you force a battleship pilot or a cruiser for that matter to loose some of its class weight firepower to mount 1-2-3 small anti frigate guns u quickly find that you cant do the job damage wise and that puts u at a massive disadvantage if you hit a ship fully armed for it size, all to mount a relativly usless gun they may or may not be used. Prehaps it would help to seperate the issue of frigs and cruisers and battleships an think about what you expect a class of ship to do. Do you expect a frigate or an interceptor to ever take a battleship down? I would argue that this is not the purpose of a a frig/interceptor. I am trying to look at the way each ship operates on its own. As i have said i personally think that more weapons slots of different sizes on a single ship give you more tactical options and makes the ship more interesting to play. Take the scorpion which i fly, i have 4 turret mounts and up to 4 missle mounts, we can forget the whole ECM boat description its meaningless, can i afford to loose even 25% of my capital ship firepower? i dont think so. Bottom line is all ships should be able to mount their standard firepower and still mount some small weapons for defence against drones and small ships. Take any battleship you care to mention and almost without exception this is the case. Dont forget that not all players are part of large corps who can or want to get into large fleet battles. If frigates are to be akin to strikecraft then they need to be made faster (integral) much more maneuverable (again integral) and very hard to hit possably with the inclusion of new/advanced skills for stealth, dodging, jinking, etc. But if you are to give the frigate and interceptor pilots their fun why should that involve removing battleships fun. If you are making these ships more fun and more, i wont say realistic as it doesnt matter if its fun but at least more understandable and thus make pilots see the value in them, give pilots who want to fly the bvig boys their own fun and understandable ships. If multiple size mounts are not introduced (i personally think they wont) then you relegate larger ships to slow moving targets that must loose the firepower they are designed to bring to counter a possible threat. Dont force pilots into these situations give more options to all dont remove or fail to change what is wrong. Eve is great lets make it greater. regards Admiral Strikeclone. R.S.S. Crimson Regret Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower" C.A.G. website http://bosie.proboards40.com/
Shadowsword	Posted - 2004.04.16 19:26:00 - [36] Ok, let's take for example your scorpion. It is designed to have slighly less firepower than the others BS, because of it's increased abilities in EW war and shield tanking. I can understand your position if you think you must sacrifice 2 weapon slots or more to defend against frigates. But the truth is, you won't be forced do do it! Take a webbifier, and put some light or heavy missiles in your cargo hold, and you'll be able to hold your own against 2 or 3 frigs, probably more... In a more general way, current battleships already can't take a full anti-capital weaponry. Do you see often a Megathron with 6 425mm and 2 siege launchers, or an Apocalypse with 8 Tachyons? The anti-capital weaponry will not be lessened bu much if they use 2 slots for light/medium weapons and 6 slots for big guns. For missile launchers it's even more easier, since you can convert them just by changing thier ammos. So, I don't think it's a good idea to add slots only usable by one size of weapons.
Hellena	Posted - 2004.04.16 20:29:00 - [37] reading...most interesting. i would have to say i support the idea of putting more turrets on a battleship but not increasing grid/cpu launchers. this would enable the bs to fit a few L weapons for hitting crusiers or frigs on a prim vector ( look at the dev blog graphs) and fit S weapons for support. -OR- do the same thing to crusiers, since they would be more like fighter support in conjunction with frigs in fleet operations. but, with the advent of these balances ( which i love) feets will no longer be able to rely on masses of bs..but more mixed fleets..like it always shuld have been. hell it would be nice to even see figher wings of frigs rush into the middle in an epic dogfight, to have the victors then fly in and face capitol ships. Not Just Another Pretty Face La Maison Hostess
Geeknik	Posted - 2004.04.16 20:58:00 - [38] In case nobody has pointed this out, there are NO battleships in real life anymore. They have all been decommissioned. =) So if you want Eve to mirror RL, I guess CCP needs to get rid of the battleship class. =) ----- I have taken all knowledge to by my province. - Sir Francis Bacon science & technology news
Rask	Posted - 2004.04.16 21:36:00 - [39] Good point geeknik, the missle cruiser has taken over the role of the battle ship. there is no need for big guns anymore. A cruise missle has a larger range, and more hitting power. You can also launch nukes in a cruise missle as they don't have the same huge acceleration of fireing that a gun shell does. It would be intresting to see a cruisre in eve that had 5 missle bays at range. maybe with a 5% bonus to launche storage space per rank of cruiser.
Quantum Ghost	Posted - 2004.04.16 21:52:00 - [40] Strikeclone I would like to shake your hand. Not for agreing with me but for reading and wholy understanding my point. Salute -QG In Game - 'Shop@hdy' Web Site - www.hadean.org
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.04.16 22:02:00 - [41] Decommision battleships in EVE, make it Concords business to blast every last one of them out of the sky if not flown by a pilot in very good standing with Concord or a state faction of his choosing. Instead insert useful and multitask deployable platforms, as that is what 80% of the battleships are used for, the rest for all intents and purposes are classified as pirates by the general public and shouldn't be allowed near a battleship in the first place. Convert Stations
Atansa	Posted - 2004.04.16 23:02:00 - [42] I like your idea just the other day I was thinking about that but I am now teching up to drones so that when people get close I will have 10 heavy drones to fly out and destroy them without problem.
Quantum Ghost	Posted - 2004.04.16 23:24:00 - [43] Quote: I like your idea just the other day I was thinking about that but I am now teching up to drones so that when people get close I will have 10 heavy drones to fly out and destroy them without problem. Only problem is that you will now need scout drones to deal with frigs as the drones are getting the same treatment. -QG In Game - 'Shop@hdy' Web Site - www.hadean.org
Atansa	Posted - 2004.04.17 00:49:00 - [44] Quote: Quote: I like your idea just the other day I was thinking about that but I am now teching up to drones so that when people get close I will have 10 heavy drones to fly out and destroy them without problem. Only problem is that you will now need scout drones to deal with frigs as the drones are getting the same treatment. -QG Main guns take out large slow ships heavy drones take out frigs.
Strikeclone	Posted - 2004.04.17 07:35:00 - [45] Edited by: Strikeclone on 17/04/2004 07:36:37 Guys n girls lets not forget that this thread is for discussing the effect all these changes will have on battleships. So the whole anti battleship brigade should go find their own thread :P. Seriously though, regardless about the current IRL state of battleships, and I must contradict some of you as there are plenty of battleships in use today their armaments have been vastly upgraded and in terms of firepower compared to other ships (guns or missles) it still brings an obscene amount of power to a fleet, as it should be. As previously stated the combat in Eve has been somewhat over taken by events and developements, If the devs ever managed to sift through these forums for ideas i hope they ready this whole thread as it is clear that something needs to be done with battleships. I still say that for me battleships in Eve should carry massive amounts of firepower more than they do now and should be able to mount varying sizes of weapons without having to lose its own power. Eve is not about frigates, cruisers, battleships its about fun and the thrill and challenges of space combat/exploration. I woul dlike to see many changes brought in on the way ships are run. Some of the ideas me and my corp have discussed are things like ships crew and their pay, the running costs of a ship for things like comsumables and such. There are many ways in which you can bring more depth to the game without much if any changes in lagg or such problems. Many of these ideas are being discussed in other threads so i wont hack this one. But please please try to take what people say here as the message not the words. For the guy who tried to counter my scorpions armament example I did state to forget the whole ECM boat thing, ships discreptions now bear very little to their current capabilities. Take any battleship and remover a large hybrid/laser/projectile why can you only replace it with 1 gun of a much smaller size? if you want to keep the same amout of high slots for the ships then how about enabling a large slot to take a few mediums? or a few more smalls? Dammint make my battleship a battleship. make it more expensive to insure/own/operate. It should be. Battleships should own space. But nothing i say here takes away anything from frigate pilots. Prehaps Eve should star using fireing arcs for all ships weapons making tactical manouvering important. Currently what ever ship you fly its very much form line advance. Imagine a squadron of kestrels flanking your heavy ships. Your guns unable to engage them and the enemies capital ships. The only thing standing between you and close range cruiser spam is your own escorts covering your blind spots? Works for me and in several space table top games i play this is the key to fleet tactics and strategy. Yeah that sounds good i think. Good Hunting Admiral Strikeclone Reikoku corp R.S.S. Crimson Regret Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower" C.A.G. website http://bosie.proboards40.com/
Nafri	Posted - 2004.04.26 19:45:00 - [46] well i want the Yamamoto Wanna fly with me?
deadlyblade	Posted - 2004.04.26 21:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Arthur Guinness you see that button named "delete", press it. and repeat after me: EVE IS NOT RL, EVE IS A GAME EVE IS NOT REALISTIC EVE IS NOT RL, EVE IS A GAME EVE IS NOT REALISTIC EVE IS NOT RL, EVE IS A GAME EVE IS NOT REALISTIC EVE IS NOT RL, EVE IS A GAME EVE IS NOT REALISTIC man some people like games so shut your bloody yap this is a good idea ... but 1st person stations is better thank u very much hmm no wink face damit.... oh wait found it Quote: If life gives u lemonds... use them to blind your enemy and mate with his wife >:) Want power want cool people want a big organized corp. join ( EVE GLOBAL ALLIANCE ) NOW ACCESS TO 0.0 SPACE 96+ members ( FADE alliance >:D)
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2004.04.26 22:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Tobias Rad**** I think you've got some good ideas here - while a battleship is meant to engage and destroy other battleships. It's unreasonable to think that a single frigate, no matter how good the pilot, should have a chance at fighting a battleship with any reasonable success rate. Well if this was the Oceanic Navy... a life raft that a soldier can wet drop a torpedo from "could" sink a battleship if it had a big enuff payload. So if a Frigate could live long enuff to pierce the shields and armor of a Battleship in EVE then yes it could take out a bs. The good news is that even the most newby BS pilots have the ability to flee from such great stunt frigate pilots. However if you stick around... don't cry that a kestrel put your 50 million isk eye out. -------------------- The Nest
Judicator	Posted - 2004.04.27 13:27:00 - [49] Speaking of the massive firepower Battleships IRL pack it can be mentioned that during WW2 the barrages from the 16inch guns threw tanks weighin in at 40-50 tons in the air and flipped them about like they where kids toys. It give you a rough idea about the awesome firepower. Battleships are massive behmoths of war. They take and deal sick amounts of damage. -------------------------

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