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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:03:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Please don't BE stupid.
Personal attacks are not allowed on the forums, and do nothing to futher the discussion.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Viglen
Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: mahj One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time
Because the used an exploit!
They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal"
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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:07:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Avon on 25/03/2008 15:07:24
Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: mahj One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time
Because the used an exploit!
They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal"
No, they were banned for ignoring GM instructions, not for the ganking.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ikserak tai
Ghengis Tia Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:08:00 -
[64]
The assumption that miners in Hulks make big Isk for little effort is wrong. Mining is a pain, but is a legitimate way to earn Isk thru effort.
I made Isk much faster by trading, but I wasn't producing anything.
Mining asteroids and turning ore into a commodity is the economic engine that fuels eve. Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.
Making miners look like cowardly morons awash in Isk is crap. The economy of Eve will feel the changes wrought by Jihadswarm, just as the RL economy feels the pinch due to the rise oil prices. Just wait, these chickens will come home to roost.
You can argue the "cold,dark universe" Eve as long as you want. When the Eve economy has to absorb this inevitable jolt, and if Jihad continues at its current pace, everyone will be paying more and more for everything.
Then we can all spend a hell of a lot more time scrabbling to make Isk, instead of the more fun aspects of the game. YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED. |
Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:09:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ikserak tai Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.
Mining does not "infuse" any ISK in to the economy at all - it just serves to move around existing ISK.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:12:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ikserak tai The assumption that miners in Hulks make big Isk for little effort is wrong. Mining is a pain, but is a legitimate way to earn Isk thru effort.
I made Isk much faster by trading, but I wasn't producing anything.
Mining asteroids and turning ore into a commodity is the economic engine that fuels eve. Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.
Making miners look like cowardly morons awash in Isk is crap. The economy of Eve will feel the changes wrought by Jihadswarm, just as the RL economy feels the pinch due to the rise oil prices. Just wait, these chickens will come home to roost.
You can argue the "cold,dark universe" Eve as long as you want. When the Eve economy has to absorb this inevitable jolt, and if Jihad continues at its current pace, everyone will be paying more and more for everything.
Then we can all spend a hell of a lot more time scrabbling to make Isk, instead of the more fun aspects of the game.
Miners are not cowardly morons. They're a vital part of the economy. But you should realize that the same goes for PvPers. Without PvPers you could not function either. Also note that if highsec was perfectly safe, more people would probably be mining, reducing your profits along the way. Suicide gankers help the smart miners to make more isk by killing off the unprepared.
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Viglen
Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:15:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/03/2008 15:07:24
Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: mahj One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time
Because the used an exploit!
They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal"
No, they were banned for ignoring GM instructions, not for the ganking.
well the GM had to ask them to quit because concord wasn't responding to an act that wasn't supposed to be possible in empire! or,,,,,,,?
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Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:16:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 15:18:09
Quote: No, that generally happens when people try to off-load personal responsibility on to game mechanic intervention. Like asking Concord to go after people, rather than other players.
Of course, Industrials cannot rely on the police, while pirates DO rely on absurd insurancing policies and ridiculous Security status systems to..,off-load their personal responsibility.
Pirates scream "you haul, you pay the price". and also "We kill, NPC insuring companies pay the price".
Nice. Rants about personal responsibility, from people that get everything in a silver plate.
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Esmenet
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:17:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Esmenet on 25/03/2008 15:18:19
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Oh, I am playing too. Your stating "there's a SP limit to all ships" or "there's a SP limit to characters already" is hardly an opinion.
There is nothing to invalidate here. It's an obvious, pointless and irrelevant comment to the topic at hand.
Its not an opinion but simple truth. When you fly for instance a raven with a certain setup there is only a very limited set of skills that will affect your ship. A clear SP limit. It doesnt matter if he also has 10 million skillpoints in using lasers.
If you compare to wow its like in time getting a lvl 70 warrior, hunter, priest etc, but still you can only play one character (ship) at the time.
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:18:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Darius Brinn Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential
how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW
...
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Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:20:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Please don't BE stupid.
Personal attacks are not allowed on the forums, and do nothing to futher the discussion.
I'm not attacking you. I am merely asking you (politely) to refrain from acting inappropiatedly. I am taking an interest in your attitude, that's all. I'll edit it if you want.
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Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:21:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential
how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW
It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.
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Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: mahj One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time
zombies got banned for TANKING concord. Suiciders arent tanking and surviving concord. ____________________________________________
Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
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Viglen
Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:27:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential
how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW
It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.
heh, I lost an Arazu to a 1 year character, just because he had the fitting to counter mine!
I had about 62m sp's back then, so that statement is kinda lame!
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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Darius Brinn
It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.
But they already can. As has already been pointed out, every ship has a SP cap.
You do understand that, right?
People with more SP's aren't automatically better, they are likey to be more diverse. Think of them as multi-classed.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Nyabinghi
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:33:00 -
[76]
Agreed that saying you are gonna quit over a ship loss or threatening to quit is just kinda silly cause it has zero impact on CCP. Now, 5000 players in a block decide to threaten to quit unless CCP address ingame issues, that might work, might. Should a player with a half billion in cargo hire protection, absofreakinlutly! However Goons are not regulating their activities to strictly rich targets. EVE has progressed in so many areas, making players more and more powerful and yet the whole dynamic of CONCORD is still back in the stone age. As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.
***
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Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential
how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW
It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.
heh, I lost an Arazu to a 1 year character, just because he had the fitting to counter mine!
I had about 62m sp's back then, so that statement is kinda lame!
it is not. Specifical counters and career choices are always effective. Without them, no younger pilot could ever beat an older pilot at anything. However, the current sp system always puts the oomph in older combat pilots. He won't have a specific anti-you fitting always. And those millions of SP count for something in most cases.
Anyway it's not the point. The fact is that pirates, of course, burn when they're put before changes to their easygoing way of life. They want insurance from NPCs, and static NPCs that do nothing while they loot the wreck of their fresh victim.
Again: it IS a design flaw. Want to blow a blaster boar to Concord to gank a non-fighter in Hi-sec? Nice. Do it and have it blown. Not blown and repaid in full. That's just stupid.
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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:39:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Nyabinghi As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.
They can already do that if they so desire. When they are ready for that level of gameplay all they have to do is leave hi-sec space.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:41:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Nyabinghi Agreed that saying you are gonna quit over a ship loss or threatening to quit is just kinda silly cause it has zero impact on CCP. Now, 5000 players in a block decide to threaten to quit unless CCP address ingame issues, that might work, might. Should a player with a half billion in cargo hire protection, absofreakinlutly! However Goons are not regulating their activities to strictly rich targets. EVE has progressed in so many areas, making players more and more powerful and yet the whole dynamic of CONCORD is still back in the stone age. As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.
The problem is that Concord provides half-asses consequences that don't dent their finances, which are protected by other NPC entities. Pirates getting blown against the police and having the ship repaid in full is wrong. Having Concord sitting down while the pirate's hauling alt retrieves the leftovers of the murder is wrong.
Remove insurance on Concord'ed ships. Have Concord target YELLOW WRECK LOOTERS in High security. It's logical, it's what police is supposed to be about. Not let pirates go on their business.
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Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Darius Brinn Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 13:32:06
Originally by: Malachon Draco How about making it more realistic.
1. Attacker doesn't get insurance payout. 2. Unprotected defender (only problem: what is unprotected) doesn't get insurance payout.
Hell, lets combine it in no insurance payout for anyone. Either you are not protected enough, or you are in a warship. And no sane insurance company will insure warships against destruction by enemy forces.
3. Secstatus loss is permanent. No ratting to get it back up.
Now with that we'd be talking serious non-carebear solution for everyone.
Exactly. Pirates want it hard, let's give them HARD. No insurances for anybody. No Security status back. Concord podding them.
Pirates just want it hard for everybody else, and burst into tears at the mere mention of changing their favourable statu quo.
In short: pirates are crying carebears. At the very least, just as much as anybody else. They want to pew-pew undisturbed in an environment tailored for their fun and comfort.
Good post. Unfortunately when pirates ask for a "cold, hard, unforgiving space" they actually mean cold, hard, and unforgiving for carebears. Keep it easy, warm, and fuzzy for the high sec pirates.
The mechanics in place that are supposed to make it hard for a pirate can all be circumvented:
-Bounty system is an utter joke. -Have too low a sec? Use an alt to do the high sec shopping for you or rat to get it right back up. -Interested in high sec ganking? No problem. Insure a couple of expendable ships with expendable T1 mods and go have yourself a blast (pun intended). Make some risk-free isk even! Sec gets too low? Rat. Rinse and repeat. -Low sec sentry guns shoot wet tissue paper.
Not to mention that PVP'ing (if you can even call it that) against mission runners, miners, and indy ships is a total joke as well. But of course, ask a high sec pirate and this does not need change as it is already "oh, so hard enough".
"Cold, hard unforgiving space" is just something for the carebears.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Viglen
Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:46:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Darius Brinn it is not. Specifical counters and career choices are always effective. Without them, no younger pilot could ever beat an older pilot at anything. However, the current sp system always puts the oomph in older combat pilots. He won't have a specific anti-you fitting always. And those millions of SP count for something in most cases.
Anyway it's not the point. The fact is that pirates, of course, burn when they're put before changes to their easygoing way of life. They want insurance from NPCs, and static NPCs that do nothing while they loot the wreck of their fresh victim.
Again: it IS a design flaw. Want to blow a blaster boar to Concord to gank a non-fighter in Hi-sec? Nice. Do it and have it blown. Not blown and repaid in full. That's just stupid.
Repaid in Full!!!!
Which blasterboat is that??
I'm only gonna fly that one from now on!!
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Ikserak tai
Ghengis Tia Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:48:00 -
[82]
Turning an asteroid into a commodity increases the fluidity of the money supply. The more fluid the supply, the the quicker Isk changes hands, the quicker goods are bought and sold. The more Isk in players hands to spend.
If there is less ore/minerals available, or the minerals are used to build Hulks instead of battleships prices will rise for those items that have become more scarce.
Maybe the next QEN will address this issue. As the indignity of being suicide ganked (and I can speak from experience) may crank up the whine siren, the effect on the economy of this large-scale economic warfare should manifest itself in the near future.
Then again, this may be just another blip on the radar screen, as I haven't crunched the numbers of a thousand lost Exhumers versus the overall scope of Eve.
YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED. |
Zeba
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:49:00 -
[83]
lol. If it wasn't a statistically insignificant amount of the playerbase ganking a statistically insignificant amount of the minerbase and then an even more insignificant amount of them come to the forums to whine about it then I might say that the views being spat out about the insignificant Goon Jihad might have merit. All these changes being proposed are like asking the Mayor to impliment a state of emergency and locking down the city because a few gangs members stole some fruit off a stand. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. --------------------- |
Buyerr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:51:00 -
[84]
so whining about whiners?! ehh..
"cold, uncaring universe" yer this is true, but in ANY society where there is a need for other people there will be rules and laws and police to enforce this, or the society will crumble...
considering the population of eve (which is very small compared to most other mmo's, especially if you consider the amount of players and not counting alt accounts) maybe there is a time where the angry mobs need to evolve into a society and actually create something more attractive in the area of rules/laws=mechanic and exploits not allowed. I declare war on stupidity |
Goran
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 15:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zeba asking the Mayor to impliment a state of emergency and locking down the city because a few gangs members stole some fruit off a stand.
I'd be declaring a state of emergency if some yob was trying to get their sticky fingers on my juicy plums.
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Izzy Lizzy
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.25 16:32:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Izzy Lizzy on 25/03/2008 16:49:20 Edited by: Izzy Lizzy on 25/03/2008 16:41:35
Originally by: Darius Brinn it is not. Specifical counters and career choices are always effective. Without them, no younger pilot could ever beat an older pilot at anything. However, the current sp system always puts the oomph in older combat pilots. He won't have a specific anti-you fitting always. And those millions of SP count for something in most cases.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you're somewhat new. When reading your quote above I think your lack of experience is keeping you from truly grasping what some of the other posters are saying about this.
You do not need specific counters to always be able to beat a veteran if you are younger. Career paths are important yes. The bottom line is that there already is a very effective SP limit. It's not just on the ship itself but on the mods you choose to fit. For any given ship, say a cruiser, it doesn't take long to max the SP for the ship itself. Then each mod you fit on it will also only be affected by a limited number of skills as well. You can max those skills out too without much effort.
Yes it does take a little time but it is a building cycle that I welcome. Without too much time you can be effective against any veteran in frig vs frig, then in a little more time cruiser vs cruiser, then BC vs BC, etc, etc... The real issue is experience and that is what really benefits the vets over the noobs. Yes SP makes a difference but my example above is a true mitigator of that and I have experienced it first hand. With that mitigation in mind the real challenge comes in trying to figure out setups that would get the edge over your opponent if they were in a similar class ship. This is a great way to add variety and true balance to the game. But even if your setups were the same, if you took the time to train (and it doesn't take as long a you think) for your setup then the only true advantage the vet has is experience. For instance, who is better at managing cap usage? Who got the jump on the lock? Who got their drones into the fight first? What range did you try to fight at? It's details like that that make more of a difference than SP assuming you trained properly. And those things come with experience.
Your proposed method of a character SP cap would actually throw the game way out of balance. What would happen is that some pilots would get "lucky" and train for really effective setups and then there would be some who thought they found an effective setup and wasted SP training for it only to find that they can't compete well in pvp. And since they've wasted what is a limited number of SP for their character you'd have people re-rolling their toons all the time so that they could train for the latest effective fad. Then if a better one comes along or the current one gets nerfed then you'd have a re-roll fest again. An SP limit for the ship and each individual mod is the way it is and imo is the way it should be. This way if something you've trained for isn't working then you've only wasted time and not a finite amount of SP. All you need to do is start looking for new methods to train for. That seems quite balanced to me.
The only other problem I see with some of your posts it that you lump all pirates into one category. You say we are all like this or that. I know a decent number of pirates and tbh I've not met one who is anything like what you indicate. I'm sure there are some like that, but it never does your argument justice when you stereotype.
Quote: The average man will bristle if you say his father was dishonest, but he will brag a little if he discovers that his great-grandfather was a pirate.
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Viglen
Taurus Inc Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.25 16:46:00 -
[87]
Brilliant Izzy Lizzy!!
Good breakdown.
Didn't feel like quoting u though
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Darius Brinn
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2008.03.25 16:56:00 -
[88]
Quote: You mentioned in an earlier post that you're somewhat new. When reading your quote above I think your lack of experience is keeping you from truly grasping what some of the other posters are saying about this.
You do not need specific counters to always be able to beat a veteran if you are younger. Career paths are important yes. The bottom line is that there already is a very effective SP limit. It's not just on the ship itself but on the mods you choose to fit. For any given ship, say a cruiser, it doesn't take long to max the SP for the ship itself. Then each mod you fit on it will also only be affected by a limited number of skills as well. You can max those skills out too without much effort.
Yes it does take a little time but it is a building cycle that I welcome. Without too much time you can be effective against any veteran in frig vs frig, then in a little more time cruiser vs cruiser, then BC vs BC, etc, etc... The real issue is experience and that is what really benefits the vets over the noobs. Yes SP makes a difference but my example above is a true mitigator of that and I have experienced it first hand. With that mitigation in mind the real challenge comes in trying to figure out setups that would get the edge over your opponent if they were in a similar class ship. This is a great way to add variety and true balance to the game. But even if your setups were the same, if you took the time to train (and it doesn't take as long a you think) for your setup then the only true advantage the vet has is experience. For instance, who is better at managing cap usage? Who got the jump on the lock? Who got their drones into the fight first? What range did you try to fight at? It's details like that that make more of a difference than SP assuming you trained properly. And those things come with experience.
Your proposed method of a character SP cap would actually throw the game way out of balance. What would happen is that some pilots would get "lucky" and train for really effective setups and then there would be some who thought they found an effective setup and wasted SP training for it only to find that they can't compete well in pvp. And since they've wasted what is a limited number of SP for their character you'd have people re-rolling their toons all the time so that they could train for the latest effective fad. Then if a better one comes along or the current one gets nerfed then you'd have a re-roll fest again. An SP limit for the ship and each individual mod is the way it is and imo is the way it should be. This way if something you've trained for isn't working then you've only wasted time and not a finite amount of SP. All you need to do is start looking for new methods to train for. That seems quite balanced to me.
The only other problem I see with some of your posts it that you lump all pirates into one category. You say we are all like this or that. I know a decent number of pirates and tbh I've not met one who is anything like what you indicate. I'm sure there are some like that, but it never does your argument justice when you stereotype
I understand that things like an effective SP cap should have been implemented from scratch, or not at all. I also understand the way competitiveness just gets to you by layers, so to speak. Nice, instructive post.
Still, I was referring to whining pirates complaining about whining ganked users. I only know two pirates: one I chat with and who gives me tips on PvP, and another one that met me and still of blowing me up, tipped me and allowed me to buy my first Destroyer there and then.
I am not as shortsighted as to not know that every person is different. The topic at hand, however, is how ganking in High security has a far too high reward/price ratio, and how Concord/insurance NPC are extremely lenient towards crime under their noses, while people benefiting from it immensely constantly post "EVE is hard and cold"...
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Esmenet
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.25 17:02:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Darius Brinn The topic at hand, however, is how ganking in High security has a far too high reward/price ratio
If it was so rewarding high sec space would look very different from what it is now.
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wamingo
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.03.25 17:07:00 -
[90]
Edited by: wamingo on 25/03/2008 17:07:25 turn it around... if you can't stand the whining, get out of the kitchen if you do piracy but can't take the heat, you're a hypocrite.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
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