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Impotent Man
Raging Emo
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:09:00 -
[1]
This is a subject that has been briefly mentioned by Digital Communist & a few others but not discussed. CCP has yet to do anything about it, yet there has been speculation of changes.
We'll start with market statistics:
Between January 2007 - July 2007 the average price of Dysprosium was approx 3,500 isk/unit. The end of July marked the beginning of the increase. And today prices top 75,000 isk/unit; and increase of over 2,100%
Of course many of you are going to attempt to point to the Patch as the cause of the increase, yet the patch wasn't released until the end of November 2007, and previous t2 ship releases did not cause such dramtic rises to dysprosium costs. So what is the cause then?
The market is run by a few different things. Dropped items, tradable NPC items, & Final products (guns, ships, ammo, etc). To make those final products one needs to obtain a few things : 1) Minerals, 2) Moon Materials, 3) tradable NPC items. Which can be exploited? Minerals can be to some extent, and this does happen as it once did with the trit shortage, however this is a difficult thing to do, as mins are abundant and controlling the locations of these resources presents an impossible task. NPC items are obviously uncontrollable, which leaves Moon materials. The rarer the material, the fewer moons exist that contain the material. Thus, Dysprosium moons exist in the fewest quantities. Combine this fact with the fact that to build any t2 ship one needs dysprosium, so you end up with a very large client base, anyone that builds t2 stuff. So, a finite # of moons to control, and an unlimited demand for the material (since ccp keep putting more t2 ships in the game, the population continues to increase and CCP has yet to increase supply *hint *hint).
Only one problem, controlling so many moons with poses and where does one find the location of these moons. Well, in this day in age, every region has been probed, every moon with dysprosium has been found. How to control all of them then, well, one must be a large, capital oriented powerful alliance with the will & drive to maintain it all. Hmmm, sounds like BoB of old. But as of last year they got pushed back into Delve and are supposedly dead. So who could run the table of dysprosium moons then? RaGoon & co? Well, could be....RA does have a history of exploiting any money making platform ccp introduces & fails to fix for extended periods of time (e.g. 10/10 complexes). Timing would be right, as the price of dysprosium increased as BoB lost more & more space.
But wait, couldn't the new t2 ships & the jump freighters cause this? Yes and no. Yes, new ships increase demand and hurt supply, but is the moon material supply exhausted to the point of increasing the price 2100%? Wouldn't ccp do something about this if we were out of the material? I think they would, but their calculations must show demand isn't outweighing supply. So, we have a case of tampering with the market, creating a higher demand by reducing supply (very similiar to how enron scammed Pacific Gas & Electric company in California). What percentage is owned by RA? Or is the network of Dysprosium moons shared amongst all the allies? Dont know. I has been suggested that RA is raking in upwards of 600 bil per month, a number that would mean RA owns over 110 Dysprosium moons. Seems like a high number to me, but when each moon makes over 5 billion per month, whos to say that continuing to collect them from small corps/alliances wouldn't be conceivable or achievable?
So, what do we do now? Not much, anyone in RA's position would do the same, BoB probably didn't do it because they made enough with t2 sales that it didn't occur to them at that time, however no doubt they'd take advantage if they got the opportunity back. CCP is to blame, only they can open .4 space or introduce t2 harvesters. Only they can monitor supply/demand. So, CCP, how about it?
Thoughts anyone?
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Hermosa Diosas
The-Secret-Service
Retribution.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:09:00 -
[2]
1st
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matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:13:00 -
[3]
tl;dr
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Omeega
UA Industry
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:22:00 -
[4]
600b no way, much, much more!
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:27:00 -
[5]
What needs to be changed, exactly? Rare resources that can be fought over seems like a good idea to me. It doesn't matter how valuable it gets, all the increased value ensures is that they will be fought over even more.
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Jake Nooble
White Nova Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:30:00 -
[6]
whiney t2 bpo owner says what?
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Impotent Man
Raging Emo
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:44:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou
What needs to be changed, exactly? Rare resources that can be fought over seems like a good idea to me. It doesn't matter how valuable it gets, all the increased value ensures is that they will be fought over even more.
I'd agree with you, but t2 prices are way down, which I dont have a reasonable explanation for.
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TroNaaR
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:47:00 -
[8]
You can see here the Death Star, orbiting the Forest Moon of Endor.
/Ackbar
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:51:00 -
[9]
Hoarding?
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Hrin
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:54:00 -
[10]
TL/DR: Quote:
I have a POS on a valuable moon in 0.4 . CCP should let me mine it.
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Orar Ironfist
Incarnation of Evil
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jake Nooble
whiney t2 bpo owner says what?
Pirate for Life(no matter my sec)
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Sleyn Peade
Twilight Fleet
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:02:00 -
[12]
Am I the only one who is happy beyond possible recognition about this happening??
I've always found the obscene inflation annoying, not to mention the fact that everyone has more ISK than they could ever hope for without too much effort, I for one am happy, happy, HAPPY about this, I hope the other moon-materials follow suit!!
The consequences of this sort of thing happening would be........
1: People will find out how much ISK they can actually make from moon mining and start fighting over the moons (----> this is the point where we all scream of joy, as the moons are scattered, and as such we'll see more fights w smaller numbers instead of all of eve gathered in 1 place) (I know POSs and stront and all that, but if/once ppl realize the amount of cash they can make on this more will flock to the prey, and whoever runs the moons cant be everywhere)
2: Losing something will have an impact on the wallet.
Yes, remember when killing a guys ship actually meant there was a chance he/she wouldn't go pick up a new one in 2 or 3 minutes??
3: Bwahahahahahhaha your carebear tears taste great.
All CCP needs to do is move lvl4-missions to lowsec and do something about all those annoying macrofarmers (or at least the gamemechanics that makes them impossible to catch). *Imagines 200M BSs and a T2-fits that cost at least the same*
*Imagines shooting them down*
Down with inflation!
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:19:00 -
[13]
If RA, or BoB or Goonswarm or little green men or some other entity are restricting the supply of materials to manipulate market prices, why exactly is that a bad thing that CCP need 'to do anything about'? Economic warfare is a completely legit form of PvP.
Or is this another 'waaaa russians are mean somebody do something' alt thread? Oh silly me, of course it is.
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Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sleyn Peade
Am I the only one who is happy beyond possible recognition about this happening??
No, it is a good thing. I just don't like the fact that jump bridges and titans allow single alliance to own 6 regions.
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Zumzat
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zumzat on 27/03/2008 22:34:05
I've heard RED ALLIANCE is created by a secret organization of neo-communists who got defeated in Russia irl and decided to revenge in EVE Online spaceships game by conquering ta least the virtual world!!1
c/d ?
And some KOS guy said
Quote:
The times when BoB ruled in Eve will seem like the Golden Age of humanity compared to what the "Reds" secretly prepare for us.
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Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:06:00 -
[16]
I believe 0utbreak and RA currently own pretty much all lowsec dyspro moons at the moment. 0utbreak should be removable by someone really large, but I can't think of much of anyone likely to pry lowsec moons out of RA's grasp.
0.0 dyspro moons I assume are just owned by whatever the local region owner is. So those are only monopolized to the extent that 0.0 space is (which means a couple mega-blocks for the most part).
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Gallager
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:15:00 -
[17]
You are assuming that this is all at the alliance level. It is just as likely that individual corps of alliances are hording a majority if not all of the dyspro moons in their space. CEI own most of the dyspro moons in RZR space, save the couple that HOO threw towers down on in Branch before the region was even secured so they could get their take. I'm not certain how much they are bringing in weekly, but I have heard numbers into the 15-18B ISK/week area.
At the end of the day, why shouldn;t alliances/corps be able to *****the resources of their space? They certainly didn't get the space for free so they should be able to do with it what they want.
I also believe that Tri has a decent amount of dyspro moons. They in turn have turned that ISK into a very nice super capital/capital fleet which was a very intelligent move in my opinion.
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Graalum
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:44:00 -
[18]
no single entity owns enough moons to be able to drive up the prices noticeably.
just out of curiosity, how many lowsec dyspro/promo moons are there?
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LTD THOR
Caille Insurance
Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:58:00 -
[19]
exists a list of all located/official dys. moons out there? i want that list!! 
Red Wars*old mov. |
Sacul
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Graalum
no single entity owns enough moons to be able to drive up the prices noticeably.
just out of curiosity, how many lowsec dyspro/promo moons are there?
Some say 6, some say 11 on low sec dyspro. In the wts forum multiple ppl try to sell those lists.
The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones!
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Zorland
Detinus Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:14:00 -
[21]
CCP said they will do something about it here
One day I guess......
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duckmonster
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:27:00 -
[22]
greedy goonz with dyspro moonz 
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Teeta Sabes
Galactic Trading
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:33:00 -
[23]
Well,i for one am very happy about the situation. Look at the price changes of tech2 items in the pastr time. it dropped, every nob can affort to fly tech2 ships and fit tech2 items. This is what concerns the enduser the most, cheap items. While dysprosium for shure is very important you have to think about some things.
I earn around 4b isk monthly with things you have mentioned, and i dnt have a dysprosium moon. When the price for dysprosium is around 70k i have a net income of 10%, a nd trust me my experiences show that if the price is at 10k isk i wil stil have a net income of 10%, which means, the mosre the purchase price is the more i do earn on it. and yes the purchase/sell price is good, because it is a natural barrier for many people. which basically means that not e verybody can do such things and it stays profitable for the ones who can do it. lowering the natural bareers has only one thing that can occur, many many many new player will overflow the market which makes the product cheap and everybody in the market wil earn a lot less then before. so what you try to o in fact is to make yourself earn less money (me to btw).
so ergo if you do not or did not study anything that is related to RL economics (because the eve market is extremely complex for a game market) pls stop talking about things like this.
sincerely
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Omeega
UA Industry
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Impotent Man
This is a subject that has been briefly mentioned by Digital Communist
/o\
p.s. I'm back and stoned, but i had forgotten to troll this thread... now it's done!
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Macdeth
Ephemeral Misgivings
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 00:47:00 -
[25]
It's only natural that when the biggest bottleneck in all T1/T2 production was completely eliminated that the obscene profits formerly earned by the T2 BPO holders shifted to the next biggest bottleneck. Quite frankly the price could be ten times as much and nobody would really feel it that severely.
There's too much isk in EVE compared to the old days, and only massive overproduction of everything in the game (including even rare officer modules put into the game over the course of five years) keeps prices down.
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Dungar Loghoth
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.28 01:50:00 -
[26]
The most logical answer to the crazy moon mineral market is definitely some kind of vast RA POS conspiracy network that controls more than half of the dyspro moons in the game.
Or maybe it's because ~18/25 of the conquerable regions in the game have changed hands at least once this year, many several times, requiring that the new owners put up new chains and interrupting supplies.
---
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Chomapuraku
Templar Republic
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.28 04:43:00 -
[27]
man, issa 'spiracy. the man tryna keep us down
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Angor
The JORG Corporation
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.03.28 05:51:00 -
[28]
posting in a carebear thread.
_______________________________
[ 2007.06.07 21:07:22 ] FrankyWave > ransom me guys I am joining XElas !!! |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.03.28 06:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Omeega
Originally by: Impotent Man
This is a subject that has been briefly mentioned by Digital Communist
/o\
p.s. I'm back and stoned, but i had forgotten to troll this thread... now it's done!
I'm sorry for revealing your conspiracy to become massive carebears :((
_______________________________
http://epicwords.net/ |
Dearwin
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.03.28 07:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Impotent Man
Of course many of you are going to attempt to point to the Patch as the cause of the increase, yet the patch wasn't released until the end of November 2007, and previous t2 ship releases did not cause such dramtic rises to dysprosium costs. So what is the cause then?
As I remember it, the second half of 2007 seemed to be full of attrition, both of end goods and the infrastructure for base good production. So a matching drop in Aggregate Supply of T2 goods and a similar rise in Aggregate Demand over a period of time is going to push Price Equilibrium up. This is a standard Negative Supply Shock matched with rising AD, anyone in the US remember going to the gas station in 1973?
Market expectation probably also had a good deal to do with it. People trying to get ahead of the game my buy up extra Dysp or hold reserves of Dysp in expectation of market demand. Remember when they announced the end of the BPO lottery in favor of invention? The BPO market very quickly shot up, and then slowly cooled as Invention began to competitively price itself with BPOs. You can also see this in real life when even ahead of the formal current sub prime crisis, investment capitol began flooding commodity markets. In the last week or so, we've begun to see that retract as the old markets for liquid capital return (Bernanke++).
The increased AD for the new T2 end goods has kept those prices up, meaning the Price Equilibrium was not out of wack, just that AD/AS fluctuated in cooperative ways to maintain PE.
Originally by: Impotent Man
Minerals can be to some extent, and this does happen as it once did with the trit shortage, however this is a difficult thing to do...
I remember ASCN used to hold on selling minerals waiting for the market to turn favorably. The reason for mineral price (relative) stability isnt so much because the market is constant AD/AS, but rather because AS/AD can move so quickly to compensate for moves on the other. This and as you mention NPC traded items represent artificial automatic stabilizers on the rest of the markets, which is part of the reason why prices on end goods have not gotten that out of wack.
Originally by: Sleyn Peade
...Down with inflation!
What you just wanted to happen is the definition of inflation. Things getting more expensive relative to the money supply at the time.
Because of increased productivity and availability of capital, market prices have had a low growth rate in spite of a booming growth of money supply. Once again this would suggest PE is sustained by fluctuating AS/AD.
-
So what's my point? The markets are working, nothing going on is artificial, and there is nothing to whine about.
We can all go back to our chicken, beer and ****.
Beagle Corp Fun
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Dearwin
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.03.28 07:35:00 -
[31]
Whats wrong with ****?
Beagle Corp Fun
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 07:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Omeega
Originally by: Impotent Man
This is a subject that has been briefly mentioned by Digital Communist
/o\
p.s. I'm back and stoned, but i had forgotten to troll this thread... now it's done!
I'm sorry for revealing your conspiracy to become massive carebears :((
Pft, what would they possibly do with half the valuable moons ontop of goon's monthly rent payment to them?
Maybe they're building 20 titans to DD capital fleets!
Originally by: nlewis
jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Dearwin
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.03.28 07:36:00 -
[33]
pron then?
Beagle Corp Fun
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Leilah Eldgorn
Certified Household Sweeping Consulting
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Posted - 2008.03.28 07:50:00 -
[34]
If moon mineral markets are being manipulated it's not CCP's job to create new moons or whatsoever. Competition for moons is kind of interesting thing. I am waiting for dysprosium moon wars(tm) myself with some interest/amusement. (Oh, please don't say no one is hoarding high end moons, everyone would like one or two) Only thing I am a bit unhappy with is that I haven't figured out yet anything useful I could actually build out of low end moons, but that's probably just me. Of course demand of new products and increasing number of players can cause some problems which should be taken into count, I can agree with that... Just don't blame it all on RA, there's plenty of ppl after those moons.
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Tarkin8
DOWN THE PIPE
Celestial Frontier
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Posted - 2008.03.28 08:00:00 -
[35]
If you want dyspro, try fountain, feythabolis, deklein, cache, estoria
They are probably the best regions all ranging from 8+ dyspro moons.
I would say delve too, but i havent got my tinfoil hat so... 
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.28 08:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Tarkin8
If you want dyspro, try fountain, feythabolis, deklein, cache, estoria
They are probably the best regions all ranging from 8+ dyspro moons.
I would say delve too, but i havent got my tinfoil hat so...
Afaik, feyth and cache are pretty poor in numbers of rare moons. Delve has 10 dyspro and 13 prom moons. Deklein 21 rare moons, no number on Fountain and Esoteria yet, but they're rumored to be pretty good regions.
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Corphus
The NewOrder
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Posted - 2008.03.28 10:01:00 -
[37]
the one who controls the spice, controls the universe!
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pershphanie
Deadly Addiction
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.28 10:04:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dearwin
pron then?
prom > pron
moon hoarding is lame. |
Aeternix Nexus
Aeternix
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Posted - 2008.03.28 10:43:00 -
[39]
There is no one entity or group thereof controling the price. Eve launched into one of the biggest wars that it has ever seen. Between BOB and the northern alliance people were buying up and produceing as many ships as they could to fight the war. As groups lost space and were pushed out Dyspro and Prometh moons exchanged hands. These new owners begans using the moon minerals for in alliance production instead of the old owners simply farming and running to market. A good portion of the new owners are running T2 reactions and selling the end product at more of a profit. With the overall rise in population of eve, more players flying T2 ships as they age, and the increase in T2 mods and ships you end up with more demand than before.
This conspiracy theory is nothing more than one individual ranting who really has no concept of the geo-political factors that play into the health of the market.
But hey, everyone loves a good drama bomb......have at it. 
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callisthenes excelsior
Caldari Strike Force
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.28 11:16:00 -
[40]
I think people have figured out that moons are the one thing that cant be controlled by the macro farmers of eve.
Also it was worthy to note that a bob fleet popped into Uemon some 60 jumps from delve last nite just to steal a dysprosium moon from tau ceti...
"CEO and generally nice guy" |
Papa Ina
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.28 11:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: pershphanie
moon hoarding is lame.
No such thing as moon hoarding, there is however taking valuable resources in order to make your alliance more money. Don't like it? Then try and stop them.
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