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Put ECMs on the Script crutch

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Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:38:00 - [1] Originally by: maralt Make them a 100% guaranteed jam at optimal like damps and id go for that. Btw i fly a falcon and even using racial a jam is not 100% even with rigs and mods boosting t2 racial jammers to over 10.5 str. Sure. As soon as "100% chance" is at 15 km optimal tops.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:45:00 - [2] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: maralt Make them a 100% guaranteed jam at optimal like damps and id go for that. Btw i fly a falcon and even using racial a jam is not 100% even with rigs and mods boosting t2 racial jammers to over 10.5 str. Sure. As soon as "100% chance" is at 15 km optimal tops. I think the same optimal as damps would be a more balanced reduction considering the op's post. I think arazu/lachesis can not perma-disable 4-7 ships at once
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 11:58:00 - [3] "chance"? My falcon has a bit over 14 str on racials. That means i can PERMANENTLY jam half of the HACs (and ofc smaller ships) in this game. Even against battleships its jam chance is high enough to enable me to almost perma jam 3 battleships during combat (yes i know how chance based system works - and against for ex. geddon i have 97% to keep him offlined each cycle - its enough for me to call it permanent). And like i said before: does arazu/lache have even CHANCE to do so? From what i saw it can barely keep 1 (maybe 2 ships if it has lots of luck) disabled - thats ofc unless they decide to close a bit. Falcon just creates 150km "you cant do anything" sphere on ships he decides to jam.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 12:17:00 - [4] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 12:18:36 IIRC falcon has missile launcher hardpoints? And it has 7 mids so can fit different tools? Its only because people CAN maximize their uber-state to jam even more targets. Yeh falcon working with tackling stuff etc at close range would work but why put 3 jammers when you can put 6 and leave tackling to someone else. Anwyays ecm (or maybe falcon coz this is most unbalanced recon atm) state is like nanophoon before: to counter it you need specific recon (arazu/lache with damp range rigs + sensor booster) or other falcon. To counter nanophoon you needed specific recon (extended + injected huginn) or another nanophoon. EDIT: And i say NO to boosting other recons. They were worst addition to game standing just next ot capital ships. If ever balance recons they should be toned down to "disable" 1-2 ships not all of em to kill whole gang. 1 cruiser to counter 1 cruiser. Not 1 cruiser to counter whatever enemy brings.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 12:58:00 - [5] When one ship is counter to everything then its imbalanced. And yes thats how you balance games - find what is abused and fix it.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:14:00 - [6] Hmmm.... curse fit to tracking disrupt: disables only half of ships in this game (and still even with 6x TD you cant disable more like 3 ships) arazu/lache fit for dampening and even with 7 damps you can only disable 2-3 ships (if you try to disable more they can either lock far or lock fast) rapier - 6 webs 6 ships that are slowed down but can fight back falcon - 7 ships that are disabled and can go afk (around 4 ships if they are battleships)
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:23:00 - [7] So oyu can counter curse w/o tracking mods (or even injector). You can counter arazu w/o sensor boosters. Same for huginn/rap. But ONLY falcon needs SPECIFIC module to counter it?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:30:00 - [8] What im saying is you can counter curse/rapier/arazu when not prepared. You can not counter falcon without preparation.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:41:00 - [9] No. I meant WITHOUT counter modules. Yes you can kill curse not having injector or compys. You acn kill arazu not having sensor booster. You cannot kill falcon without ECCM. For falcon you will need blob.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 13:51:00 - [10] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 13:52:30 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 13:50:56 If falcon runs and not dies its not win. Exactly same as nanophoon. So 1v1 you wont win. And its pretty probable 3v1 you wont catch him (unless you have lots of recons due to their ECCM str). Hmmm i have easy solution. Max 1 ECM module on ship can be used (1st come 1st serve). Suddenly it wont be able to permajam everything and it will be able to use other slots for "advantage" (the so called tank it lacks as you said).
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 14:00:00 - [11] Actually even better idea. Tho damps would have to return to pre-nerf era (or at least 1,5x more on scripts OR 1 of each type script on target). As for "people who like recons". I fly curse almost on daily basis, used it back in armor tank + ecm whoring next nano-damp-invulnerable mode. And now using falcon on alt. Still i say they are overpowered and should be nerfed (but wont stop me from using FOTM anyways).
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 17:16:00 - [12] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/03/2008 17:18:06 If you start close enough to arazu/MWD to him you can start locking within damped range. Guess you never fought against gall damp ships. But its easy to kill them - even in sabre (yeh got one or 2 odd arazu/lache kills in sabre). Falcon? Try again. You will NEVER manage to tackle it unless you either drop bubble (dictor) or have blob large enough so he cant jam you. Even with 1x ECCM mod falcon WILL jam you sooner or later. And reasons why its that? Damps are stacking nerfed, so are TDs. If you use 10 damps its same as if you used 4. ECM is not: using 10x ECM mod on ship is better than using 4. EDIT: also by default ECM modules are much stronger in effect than damps. To disable ship (like no lock range/no scan res) you need 4 damps (2x range 2x lock time). 4 ECM mods will disable 2 ships easily (even ravens are quite easy to jam with 2 racials on their head). And if you fight with cruiser sized ships (HACs, t1 cruisers, BCs, commands) you have almost guaranteed 4 jammed ships (around 90-95% per most of them/ECM module).
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 17:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Doddy The whole "if you start close enough" comment kinda says it all about your arguement tbh. "if you start close enough" to a falcon he is probably just as dead seeing as they are made of paper. As far as i remember falcon has around 3-4k shields with 1x LSE. I dont see any ship killing 4k shields + armor + struct before falcon can lock it. If you know one - please give me more info. Id gladly kill falcons easily before they magae to jam me. Quote: As for the stacking, damps are only stack nerfed if you are using them on the same target. You do not need 4 damps to disable a ship either 2 will do ( no sensor booster remember) so basically you can disable 2 with either. One damp can barely cut your lock range to 0,3x (or lock time). This is enough to get lock decently fast on any ship (even HAC will lock you in around 8-10 seconds). Quote: Sure enough you have to keep range, and its more difficult, but thats why a lachesis is tougher and does more damage than a rook. Your point seems to be that a falcon will get a jam off and run away eventually but you can say the same thing about any ship that is faster than you as well. Thats the "nano" problem which this topic is not about. And as far as i know "nanos" are going to get fixed too. Again. And in what way lachesis is tougher than the rook? If i remember correctly rook has 7 mids and CAN fit tank. Its your problem you opt to put even more imbalanced ECM onto it.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.30 18:39:00 - [14] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 30/03/2008 17:59:34 1. ecm do not need stacking penalties because they do not have a cumulative effect they either work or not unlike damps. and using 2x ECM on one ship is not more effective than using 1? Dream on and read about statistics. Quote: 2. If speed is the answer to killing an arazu then drones and FOF missiles are the answer to falcons. WTB 150-200km drone range and FOF missile range (ah ofc falcon needs to be CLOSEST enemy to be hit Quote: 3. you claim that speed is needed to kill the arazu and later you claim that the "nano issue" is another topic. So are you saying that if speed gets nerfed that you will be looking to nerf arazu's damps again claiming they are over powered?. Arazu is pretty slow. Nano nerf will hit both arazu and other ships. Thus you can still catch up to it. Quote: Its just a circle of nerfs wanted by pilots who think that just because they cannot out think, out fit, out skill or out fly a problem that it is a unsolvable problem and needs a nerf instead of the fact that they just aint as good as they think. And thats just counter-whine of pilots who want their FOTM to be still uber.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.30 20:18:00 - [15] Quote: Of course the more you try to use the more chance you have to jam but if the first ecm fails it does not reduce the sensor str of the ship for the second one. While damps do reduce range or speed and cannot fail thats why they have stacking penalties. Damps can fail like all EWar. Surprise - damps have pretty short optimal and when used in faloff they have normal "to hit" chance. If you miss there is no damp effect. Quote: It takes the same thing to kill a falcon as it does an arazu, ie: uber close range the only diff is the you need drones or FOF for the falcon while the arazu can be killed by guns or normal missile. And whats gonna keep falcon from WARPING when FOF or drones hit him? Surely not that "uber close range" but already jammed ship? And arazu on other hand when gets locked is dead. And i guess i hit dead on - you are falcon user who doesnt want to get his toy nerfed. Sorry, FOTM must get balanced. Bye.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2008.03.31 06:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Selnix Deva having flown so many Caldari ships in pvp during his career that his use of Minmatar and Amarr ships is almost non-existant to the point of exclusiveness. its really cool that you cheack killboard of my main who can not fly even caldari frigate. Next time check my alt results who is pure caldari. Oh wait - you dunno his name... and you prolly wont till you get jammed. Also your "sarcasm" is badly placed anyways. "250km" while i speak about 150-200km range (and its fairly easy to get falcon to 200km - do you even know about rigs?). And yes - in small gang combat falcon IS invincible. Happy? Never lost falcon to gang under 10 people and never was even close to losing one. I know you like flying in 50-100 man goon blobs in which yeah - its hard to ECM everything. But surprise: there is much more in eve than your crap blobs. And thats where falcons can imbalance gameplay. In SMALL gang combat. In large scale it doesnt matter which recon you fly - they are pretty useless (only web recons are decent with removing tacklers). Quote: Any nerf to the Falcon should result in an equal nerf to the other recons in that they should be only able to have their modules affect a single race at full strength at a time, forcing them to fit solely for web/neut/damp if they want to be able to EW any ship they come across as they won't have slots open for tank/speed/gank any more either Told you already - no problem with this. As long as my neuts have 80-90% of instadraining cap on any ship. "overpowered"? No - just exactly same and "fun" for target as being jammed - you become useless in one clock of module.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.31 18:36:00 - [17] Originally by: maralt There is nothing stopping both small gangs from bringing a falcon or even two and that is where the nerf minded always fall apart in there crying. Aaaand here we have another moot point. "There is nothing stopping people to bring nanophoon to counter nanphoon." "There is nothing stopping people to bring 8 sink geddon to counter 8 sink geddon". There is: ship shouldnt be a counter for itself. Its rock-paper-scissors game not rock-rock-scissors game. Thats why 8 sink geddon was nerfed. Thats why nanophoon got hit by nerfbat. Guess whos next on the "bring it to counter itself" list.

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