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Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise Infinite Innovation
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Posted - 2008.04.02 11:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nix Samara I was reading another thread on this page and a couple people brought up that they thought that there is zero inherent skill involved in flying ships in EVE. That was is the main factor is a character's skill points.
I have seen this topic come up a few times before and every time, the "vets" say there are indeed real skills needed by the player. However, they never seem to mention what they are. They only say something like "go watch the tourney" or some other vague gibberish.
they mean the clicky-clicky skills (the obvious) and "insight" into options available given a particular combination of ships. Often that insight is the deciding factor, especially when pilots are similarly skilled.
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Hermosa Diosas
The-Secret-Service Retribution.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 11:45:00 -
[32]
target, orbit, shoot - yep lots of skill needed. Ok maybe some...
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.02 11:49:00 -
[33]
Knowing your ship, and knowing its limits.
Fitting it in the manner that gives you the most advantages.
Knowing how to remove the enemies strenghts while reinforcing your own.
Knowing when to fight and when not to fight, as well as knowing when its time to bail.
Knowing how to engage.
This is some of the skills the player have, or doesn't have.
While all of this is true, a lot of fights are decieded inside a station, while fitting your ship.
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Cmdr DASh
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.02 11:58:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 02/04/2008 09:44:41
Knowing how to fight your ship (that is NOT simply a case of F1-F8) and being able to deduce enemy setups to fight on your terms not theirs (aka tactical acumen). Correct target selection/target priority when fighting multiple enemies. Knowing when to engage Knowing when to disengage. Maintaining optimal transversal when fighting a poorer tracking enemy without screwing your own damage output (goes back to extensive knowledge of how to fight your ship and deducing enemy setups) Knowing when to use æoverloadÆ Baiting faster ships into web range Baiting smaller ships in order to æone volley themÆ Control of drones, elimination of enemy drones Use of covert ops for scouting, covert ops for baiting, covert ops for decoying ...the list goes on and on and thatÆs just solo pvp, I havenÆt even started on FCÆing ()...
Very good post. Appreciated.
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AeonPhoenix
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.04.02 11:59:00 -
[35]
There is a lot of group tactics and logistics to Eve Online, as for individual skill, there is a small amount to play, but really it's never really much in it, it's just knowing enough to do the right thing in certain situations.
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Dravius Luxor
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:25:00 -
[36]
There is a LOT of skill involved. We can all (eventually) fly the same ships with the same amount of skillpoints each if we really wanted to, but someone will still win, and the other guy will still lose.
When I was three months old, I gave sisi a try, and lost 6 ships warping into the FFA's. Then I began to think differently, fit differently, and use different tactics, until I knew:
1: What ship to fly when I don't want to get attacked.
2: What ship to fly when I want to be attacked at long/mid range.
3: What ship to fly when I want/expect to get tackled.
These three things are essential to consider when getting ready for a fight, but until I got killed a few times I never thought of them.
It's just like an inexperienced player going into lowsec thinking "Yeah, but my Raven has SIX civilian shield boosters, it's indestructible". There are many things you would never even consider, until given reason to.
In my opinion; anyone who uses EFT really has got the wrong end of the stick.
Knowing when to fire is more important than having 5 more dps than your target, assuming you're not both just sitting still.
Half the battle is fought in the hangar.
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Lyria Skydancer
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:29:00 -
[37]
Compared to doing well in FPS or flying jets in battlefield 2 or similar skill games eve-skill is 0.1 on a scale of 10. Really there isnt much skill involved even if the majority of the eve community likes to think that. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
RuleoftheBone
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
When somone compared EvE to an RTS they were not off the mark. Consider the EvE FC-has total abstract control of all units and deploys as needed. Sadly the player AI is often rubbish .
QFMFT
Im sure most FCs would agree to this post. Made me smile anyway.
I was-of course-referring to most opposition as opposed to corpmates .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.04.02 12:35:00 -
[39]
The most obvious things would probably be stuff like how to fit a ship or how to coordinate a group.
Also, things like choosing paths that have high radial velocities to multiple things targeting you, scanning people down quickly or how to lay an enticing trap.
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Cassandra Beckinsale
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:17:00 -
[40]
EvE Large Scale Battles are dictated by:
25% Character SP 40% Player Skills 20% Equipment (so ISK) 15% Luck
EvE Solo Hunting Battles are dictated by:
40% Character SP 40% Equipment (so ISK) 5% Player Skills 15% Luck
So, in the end: team work in EvE require a lot of team player skills. If you aim for personal skills go for an FPS. Planning (aka fitting) is another thing.
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:27:00 -
[41]
There is skill in how you tacticaly asess a situation and if in a team how you work once engaged, but generaly speaking once a fight kicks off its all down to the maths. (Bar the obvious of how good you are at keeping your transversal up in an engagement against gunships)
It's a shame really old games like darkspace really factored in your piloting and weapon aiming skills into a fight. Now days more and more "player skill" areas are being handed over to mathematical forumlea like the new probe system. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Solasta Kovacs
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:34:00 -
[42]
You have to factor in tracking, exp radius/ velocity, micromanagement of modules, position in space, speed, transversal etc etc to all of that.
Sure- a slugfest between 2 short range BS is largely about maths, but most engagements are not that simple and require all sorts of other knowledge and skills.
For instance, even a vagabond looking for a cheap gank against a Drake requires consideration of the situation, the missile the Drake is using, your choice of ammo and range, the necessity to micromanage mwd to retain cap whilst avoiding the worst of the missile damage, management of his drones, your drones etc etc.
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Nomakai Delateriel
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Rawthorm There is skill in how you tacticaly asess a situation and if in a team how you work once engaged, but generaly speaking once a fight kicks off its all down to the maths. (Bar the obvious of how good you are at keeping your transversal up in an engagement against gunships)
Everything down to maths? Hardly.
You don't know how the hostile ships are configured. As such maneuvering, remote repping, e-war (and E-war targets) and target priority all play a role.
You can easily see the difference between good FCing/flying and bad FCing/flying by looking through the last tournament. In some cases one team had "the perfect build" to counter someone elses build and still lost because their FC failed to call out the right targets or because some player made a mistake and either got burned or weren't in the proper position to deliver the maximum firepower. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Face Palmer
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:49:00 -
[44]
My 'Press f1-f8' tactics seem so one dimensional after reading this thread
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:00:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Shadowsword - Balls. some british admiral (Sinclair?) said: "He who will not risk, can not win". It's the same with Eve. However you measure success in Eve, be it uber-rich trader, 0.0 powerhouse, or most famous pvpers, each of them has risked a lot, often, to get there.
Lots of good quotes along those lines:
"Fortune Favors the Bold: Attack, Attack, and Attack Once More" (not sure who said that)
"It is fatal to enter a war without the will to win it." - General Douglas MacArthur
"A bold general may be lucky, but no general can be lucky unless he is bold." - Field Marshal Archibald Percival Wavell
"Audacity, audacity, always audacity." - General George Patton (borrowed from the French I think)
"Who Dares, Wins. Who Sweats, Wins. Who Plans, Wins." - British Special Air Service (SAS)
Seems they are all in agreement with the concept. ;)
And to the OP if you feel there is no skill in fighting in EVE just go test it out. Go on Sisi and challenge some experienced players to duels. 1v1, 2v2, 5v5, 3v5...whatever. I think you will find you will get beat far more often than not. There are numerous stories of smaller groups defeating larger ones in EVE because they used what they had more effectively. If you think battle in EVE is set orbit, turn on your guns and see what happens expect to lose a lot of ships.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Vladimir Ilych
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:00:00 -
[46]
I personally think that the skills involved in flying a ship are not huge but they certainly can make the difference between winning and losing. Mostly it is about situational awareness.
The more important skill is in creating a fleet that works together to execute a good plan and in the skill of the FC to respond to new tactical situations before the shooting starts.
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Rawthorm
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Rawthorm There is skill in how you tacticaly asess a situation and if in a team how you work once engaged, but generaly speaking once a fight kicks off its all down to the maths. (Bar the obvious of how good you are at keeping your transversal up in an engagement against gunships)
Everything down to maths? Hardly.
You don't know how the hostile ships are configured. As such maneuvering, remote repping, e-war (and E-war targets) and target priority all play a role.
You can easily see the difference between good FCing/flying and bad FCing/flying by looking through the last tournament. In some cases one team had "the perfect build" to counter someone elses build and still lost because their FC failed to call out the right targets or because some player made a mistake and either got burned or weren't in the proper position to deliver the maximum firepower.
Thats all down to command ability. Strip all that away and look at the actual ship on ship situation. Boil it down to a 1 vs 1 if you want to look at it in its simplist terms. In EvE a cruiser vs a frigate is often a clear cut fight. In a game like darkspace the frigate could eventualy wear down the cruiser with skilled manuvering (as in your piloting skills, not some bit of math saying your not going to be hit) and likewise with cruiser could lay down some skilled shots during some manuvers of its own to pin the frigate down into a position where you could lay some hurt on to it.
In an eve frig vs cruiser fight you often know before you even start if hes gonna be able to even hit you or not, and even if you did pick on a target you know cant hurt you there is often no way you'll break him in 2 minutes or 2 hours.
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Billy Sastard
Life. Universe. Everything. Rejuvenate
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:26:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas target, orbit, shoot - yep lots of skill needed. Ok maybe some...
We must not be playing the same game...
I personally have nearly 30m SP, all of which are dedicated to combat, however I am horrible at implementing them!
It is not about amassing SP, finding a setup on battleclining, then "target, orbit, shoot". Maybe for running missions, but even then if that is all you do you could find yourself in hot water really fast. -=^=-
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:29:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale EvE Large Scale Battles are dictated by:
25% Character SP 40% Player Skills 20% Equipment (so ISK) 15% Luck
EvE Solo Hunting Battles are dictated by:
40% Character SP 40% Equipment (so ISK) 5% Player Skills 15% Luck
So, in the end: team work in EvE require a lot of team player skills. If you aim for personal skills go for an FPS. Planning (aka fitting) is another thing.
I'd love to see you try to justify those numbers you pulled from thin air... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Trovax
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:30:00 -
[50]
There is no skill in point and click/point and double click/hold shift and click.
There is no skill in reading 'optimal range = 10km' and then setting orbit distance to 10km.
There is no skill in how much you push on the accelerator. Everyone knows, the faster a target moves and the smaller it is, the harder it is to hit.
All common sense stuff. (as mentioned by someone else above)
The skill is working as a team. Coordination is key.
The skill list is purley a virtual 'carrot' dangling in front of virtual 'donkey'
The more time you play, the better kit you can have.
Thus preventing 'Mr Noob' from being able to fly the Industrial capital when 'Mr I been playin 4 years'has only just managed to get it him/herself.
NOW!!!!! If CCP introduced Radar, remove overview, and brought in 'Flight Controls' that required the use of a joystick.......... You could almost guarantee a total shift in power in the e-verse. You would have to look for targets with your own eyes and whatever sensors you could afford (like thos on a submarine for example), then manually fly to them and engage them. THAT would be skillfull. Tactics, manouvering, strategie's, you name it, it would all be there. "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rawthorm (as in your piloting skills, not some bit of math saying your not going to be hit)
Ok, yes. That kind of skill isn't very important in Eve except in a tiny few situations, like an interceptor v interceptor dogfight. Eve is just not that kind of a game. It's not a fps or a combat simulator.
Combat is more strategic/tactical, and the skills needed are on that level.
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:35:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trovax NOW!!!!! If CCP introduced Radar, remove overview, and brought in 'Flight Controls' that required the use of a joystick..........
Then I would quit Eve.
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Trovax NOW!!!!! If CCP introduced Radar, remove overview, and brought in 'Flight Controls' that required the use of a joystick..........
Then I would quit Eve.
Me too. That upcoming MMO in space (forget the name) looks to be a joystick affair. I will not touch it.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Sakura Nihil
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:08:00 -
[54]
Let's put it this way.
When you're flying a nanoship, you have to have good situational awareness - what is the shape of the enemy blob your facing, are there any ships outside the tight cluster of carebear safety that you can gank?
Where are anti-nano threats relative to you, such as Curses/Rapiers/Huginns, and are you being lit up by missile ships so that you need to maintain speed even at distance?
Are the BSes sniper or close-range fit, and where is the nearest celestial you can warp out to in the path you're currently traveling?
Is there a target of opportunity encased in the blob, such as an EAS, dictor, or stealth bomber, one that could be nuked with a strafing run? Does that run put you too close to an anti-nano threat?
These are all things that you tend to consider when doing nano gangs, not to mention the understated fact that you're flying essentially a tin can that costs a quarter of a billion ISK, and has no defenses save for its speed. It is very demanding of a pilots skill, and we're talking about the gun-variants here, imagine what its like to be a nano Curse and the primary target that has to manage cap, drones, EW, and speed simultaneously.
F1-F8, heh .
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
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wamingo
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:10:00 -
[55]
Edited by: wamingo on 02/04/2008 16:10:39 Most skill in eve is prior combat. But of course there is some.
Maybe the real question the op ought to be asking is whether it's enough.
Eve is a hotbar style game just like WoW and other popular mmo's. However other mmo's often allows some form of counter-abilities, and the order of abilities chosen, and "energy" plays a much greater part of combat.
If EVE was to be more skillful, the best way I reckon would be to make all types of weapons and modules use eg capacitor energy and have either defensive or counter-abilities or both be implemented to an extent where fittings would be truely random and nuts. This is actually what ccp aimed for in the first place. But I'm sure people will claim otherwise.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Rells
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:15:00 -
[56]
There is a GREAT DEAL of skill involved, it just isnt twitch skill. The skills involved are tactical and strategic and even operational. On the tactical level you have proper ship piloting and other techniques taught b AGONY for 2 years. On the strategic level you have the skills of leadership, movement, recon, management, and getting in the head of your opponent (the MOST critical skill in pvp). On the operational level you have deployment decisions, logistical management and campaign structure.
Eve is the most complex PvP game ever made. If we can just keep the devs from turning it into WoW to please the suits, we will be good for another 10 years.
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Merdaneth
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:16:00 -
[57]
There are a lot of different skills involved. I tend to use a lot of psychology to get (and win) fights. My primary tactic against experienced opponents is making them believe they can win.
I've also experimented with something I call 'psychological tackling', that is, killing hostiles in solo fights without equipping a scrambler. Nearly half of my solo kills have been achieved without having a point on the opponent.
Ship fittings, player skills, speed of decision, but also speed of action (clicking speed) are important factors.
I find that most battles with experienced PvP-ers are consensual. Experienced PVPers are smart enough to avoid a fight they will likely lose. The trick is trying to have them consent to a battle they will lose (but think they can win).
Alternately, you can try to force a battle upon someone, but in EVE that's generally quite hard, and usually requires numerically superior forces. In such cases, the actual battle result is often predetermined due to weight of numbers.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Rells
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:24:00 -
[58]
Originally by: wamingo Edited by: wamingo on 02/04/2008 16:10:39 Most skill in eve is prior combat. But of course there is some.
Maybe the real question the op ought to be asking is whether it's enough.
Eve is a hotbar style game just like WoW and other popular mmo's. However other mmo's often allows some form of counter-abilities, and the order of abilities chosen, and "energy" plays a much greater part of combat.
If EVE was to be more skillful, the best way I reckon would be to make all types of weapons and modules use eg capacitor energy and have either defensive or counter-abilities or both be implemented to an extent where fittings would be truely random and nuts. This is actually what ccp aimed for in the first place. But I'm sure people will claim otherwise.
It needs no changes. The reality is that you are looking for simple solutions to complex combat. You are transferring the concept of Mana (or whatever it is in WoW) to eve and boiling down a complex system of good and bad points to a simple system of mana pool vs cost.
For example, missiles dont take capacitor energy but they have a number of downsides such as being utterly ineffective against speed tanks and delayed impact and registering of damage. This means a target can warp away from your stealth bomber's incomming cruise missiles but not the sniper's gun turrets. On the other hand turrets have immediate impact but can be affected by transversal speed (which doesnt affect missiles, only your overall speed affects missiles) and with a tracking disruptor on you, you might miss quite a lot. Missiles cant be guidance disrupted.
Even within the guns there is complexity. A Laser consumes massive amounts of CAP (always has been their problem, not EM resist) but they dont use ammo in the traditional sense, dont reload and strike hard. On the other hand, autocannons dont use any cap at all and have high alpha strike but pay for it with lower DPS and range. I could go on like this for pages and pages.
The checks and balances there are complex and require good decision making in ship configuration.
However, in combat you have decisions to make as well. Do you attack this target? Is he alone? What configuration will he have and can you counter it? Is it best to orbit him or keep at range? If there are multiple targets, which goes first? Where do you place ewar for maximum effect and when is the engagement not to your advantage?
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RuleoftheBone
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:41:00 -
[59]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 02/04/2008 16:43:14
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Trovax NOW!!!!! If CCP introduced Radar, remove overview, and brought in 'Flight Controls' that required the use of a joystick..........
Then I would quit Eve.
Me too. That upcoming MMO in space (forget the name) looks to be a joystick affair. I will not touch it.
So I would be the only one with HOTAS/Stick/Rudder pedals then?
Cool...bring it on .
**EDIT**I would never touch the keyboard again unless docked. You think them G15 keyboards are good? Hahahahahahaha mmmmmm...programmable HOTAS...mmmmm .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Tim Dust
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:53:00 -
[60]
I'm sure that there is skill involved, but combat would be much more interesting if Eve ships had multiple shield facings, weapons arcs, subsystems that could be damaged and/or targeted, armor that only protected the side of the ship that it was mounted on, etc.
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