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Caldari interceptor role reversal.

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welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:32:00 - [1] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:32:49 There are two interceptor tiers 1 & 2, the Raptor being tier 1 & the Crow in tier 2. Tier 1 interceptors are the 'tackling' interceptors, ie,, those with a bonus to warp jammer range and inherently lower dps. Tier 2 interceptors are the 'combat' interceptors. They lack the bonus to warp jammer range but their bonuses are focused around their weapons system and so is their slot layout. As any Crow pilot will tell you the ship isn't particuarly suitable for combat beyond tackling. It's a very good ship in its own right but its damage output (and application of damage) is measly in comparison to the other tier 2 interceptors and is barely any better than the Raptors. It used to be good but since the introduction of rigs the average speed of an interceptor has increased beyond the capabilities of its weapons system. My proposal is simple, the Crow stays exactly as it is now except that it gains the warp jammer range bonus. The Raptor becomes the new tier 2 interceptor, with its 4th high moved to a midslot and its grid increased inline with the other combat interceptors. This would allow it to fit a shield extender along with an Mwd and set of 125mm II's, 150mm's would require a fitting mod. This is inline with Caldari philosophy too, lots of midslots. Like I said earlier the Crow is still a fantastic ship but its ability to do damage is based in large on the opponent making mistakes. It isn't the ship that is at fault as such, rather the explosion velocity of the missiles that it uses. As interceptors now reguarly exceed 7km/s it is a rather glaring deficiency for a ship designed as a dog fighter. Off you go then... :) --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 11:55:00 - [2] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. It is close to impossible to kill a skilled interceptor pilot in a Crow currently because being in web range means they have you webbed and you won't last anywhere near aslong as he will. Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:04:00 - [3] Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away. Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment? --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:12:00 - [4] Railranis, blaster ranis fails unless its quicker than the opponent. Unless you're very confident of getting within 5km of your opponent very quickly. I don't dispute this. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 12:35:00 - [5] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 12:36:31 Theres always going to be a use for a 30km point so I'm not sure I agree with the 'obsolete' bit. Before the changes I'd agree with you though. I'm aware of your point with the crow and claw not using any cap where as the ranis and crusader do but a largely ineffective weapons system and only 2 midslots more than offsets this balance (imo). The crusader comes off worst here I guess but it usually has the longevity and damage to win out anyway. I guess heat and rigs have alot to answer for wrt killing the dogfight but the benefits of both have made the game more entertaining in other areas, that cant be denied. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 13:46:00 - [6] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 13:47:33 Originally by: Omarvelous ... If you really want to avoid heavy neuts - try a domination 30km scram. Thanks for that invaluable advice. For dog fighting fitting a shield extender doesn't make any difference, you're going to get tracked and hit in web range by small guns anyway. You're right when it comes to tackling bigger ships but you don't need a shield extender for that purpose. Basically the Crow needs to web its target to kill it but entering web range of another interceptor invariably means you end up dead because it doesn't have the dps or the staying power to come out on top. It has the least EHP and the least dps of all four combat inties (when fit for general use) which suggests that it needs to out-range its opponent. However, outranging means no web which means almost nil possiblity of victory against an intelligent interceptor pilot that exceeds 6,500m/s. Like I said before the ship isn't the problem, its an inherent weakness attributed to missile explosion velocity. I'm also aware that it treads a very fine line, increasing explosion velocity could easily make it overpowered as it can sustain its range and do damage however in its current guise it just isn't a combat inty. This is why I'd suggest making it the tackling interceptor as it can't apply its damage anyway and changing the Raptor to be more of a sustainable gunship in web range. Guns very much > missiles in current interceptor combat. That may not have been true 12 months ago but it certainly is now. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:59:00 - [7] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 14:59:42 Originally by: Bronson Hughes ...This isn't an issue with the Malediciton because it's damage bonus applies specifically to rockets so to get it's damage bonus it has to fight in web range. Thats your prerogative and has nothing to do with balance what so ever. Needless to say I acknowledge your points but think you're making far too much of the Crows strengths. 12 months ago you had a point, not now since the hitpoint buff and increased speed across the board though. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40 Originally by: Brodde Dim ...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage. Am I the only one using precision lights? They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well... No I use them too because I can afford to lose the speed, you do 75% damage against a 6km/s interceptor but there isnt many 6km/s inties about anymore. They're certainly not good enough to solve the problem. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Red Wid0w They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow. Have you even compared range and dps for the long range interceptors? You do know crows dps is pretty darn good for its range. But let me guess, youre comparing crow dps to rockets, blasters and pulse lasers right? Doesn't make any difference if they do zero damage at the will of the opposing inty pilot does it? --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:32:00 - [10] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 23:32:42 Originally by: NoNah ...The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. The lowest scan resolution of all the interceptors. i agree though, the targeting range is nice. Quote: Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon. Then your experience with crows is limited and very dated. Any experienced and moderately quick inty pilot that loses a dogfight to a Crow made some whopping mistakes. --------------- you all smell!

welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:44:00 - [11] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/04/2008 17:52:45 Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:06:27 Edited by: joshmorris on 04/04/2008 18:05:52 Quote: Lyria Skydancer] Originally by: welsh wizard Lyria, a taranis does 150dps+, a crow does 50, ie,, its pretty bloody obvious who is going to win in web range. Try to argue the point and not your bias opinion. Yeah taranis does 150 + dps but its range is under 5k with null then im sure using null negates its dps. Taranis is also very slow compared to crow. So stay out of 5k and keep him webbed (easy to do because your quicker) and you will win ... You can get 147dps out of small rails and 2 hobgoblins. edit: Just to state that this thread wasn't really intended to be a boost the crow thread. If it needs a nerf in some other area to allow the 30km point so be it. My point is that it is not a dogfighter and aslong as inties keep going as fast as they are now it never will be because light missile & rocket explosion velocity is borked. The Crow was dominant 18 months ago because 6.5 - 7km/s was the ceiling with a gisti a-type and rogues. As a result the light missile and rocket explosion velocity kept up with pretty much every target. Now the average speed of an interceptor is probably around 7-8km/s with a tech II fit! Its not hard to see why the Crow is now a failed dog fighter because its weapons system doesn't compete. This is why I proposed the role reversal. Like I said if this means some kind of nerf because the 30km crow is allegedly overpowered then so be it aslong as someone can come up with some reasonable ideas rather than blatently bias bs. Personally I think the Crow is rather limited as it is these days and so doesn't need a nerf to accomadate the 30km point but I'm undoubtedly bias. The Raptor is still crap though, would be nice to see it beefed up with 25% resists on shields and 'x' other bonuses to mirror the Amarr armour tanking variant. --------------- you all smell!
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: General Paul Caldari ceptors role reversal ? Why are y'all talking about gallente and amaar ceptors ? Because balancing two interceptors requires looking at the balance of the other six. Not really, the Raptors crap and needs a boost and the Crow would just be going sideways if it had some other kind of nerf when it gains the 30km point. --------------- you all smell!

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