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kessah
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Posted - 2008.04.02 13:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: kessah on 02/04/2008 13:37:22
Curious to know why these ships havnt taken on the recon role of bonuses, because the Widow is arguably the most effective of the four, considering on there purposes. Pick on the blob type combat so to speak. -(i know the widows based on the scorp, but it wouldnt be different if it was based on falcon really)
Right now they are pre nerf'ed -np's from me, but when they do decide to repair them, kindly consider them as a Recon or Support type craft.
Theres alot of potential with these ships, currently imho the Redeemer needs to be curse, the Sin a Lach and the Panther a Huginn.
Quite possibly the Panther being given 5 launcher hardpoints instead of 5 turrets...
I wont go into how silly to me it looks by having a Sin (Battleship class hull....!) 5% agility and from what i can see a SEVERE and brutal bash from the past on the Nano phoon, only with a 500m price tag and o yeah... it cloaks. -i mean i see these bonus and whatever idea you had the gamers of eve would use them for, well they aint guna use for whatever you thought they would.
I just dont understand the reasoning for the bonuses the sin and panther get at all.
The Widow though, ouch... its pretty much what it would be reguarless if its based on the falcon or the scorp.
If they are to remain the same, please change the blackops bonus to something to aid them better rather than 5% agility/velocity and 7.5% tracking.
Be nice to see 7.5% opt range on redeemer if they need to be this way.
Again just from what i see with these ships - other than the widow, they just arent cloak and dagger enough for my liking.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=633738 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url]
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Tibilo
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:20:00 -
[2]
I would imagine that battleship sized recons may be too powerful, although maybe that would alright given their price.
How about giving them some kind of signature reduction module that can reduce the signature radius of itself and its gang making them harder to find with scanning and giving the whole gang more of an advantage other than the jump portal especially if they used the combination of ecm and damps on falcon and arazu
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:28:00 -
[3]
It makes no sense whatsoever that the widow gets an e-war bonus while the other bops get no bonuses to that regard. Either make them all cloaky cloaky with decent tank and dps or cloaky with ewar.
Given a pricetag of 5 - 600mil, bonuses similar to each races combat recons wouldnt be overpowered at all.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it
I refuse to read SHC |
welsh wizard
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:33:00 -
[4]
It's not enough bang for buck currently so they'll never see widespread use in their current guise. Covert ops BS sounds imbalanced but I guess if the price tag remains stupily high....
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you all smell! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.02 14:39:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
It makes no sense whatsoever that the widow gets an e-war bonus while the other bops get no bonuses to that regard. Either make them all cloaky cloaky with decent tank and dps or cloaky with ewar.
They are all based off their respective tier 1 hulls.
The widow is the worst of the bunch, since ewar ships have no tanks and are always primaried. yes please to a 650m uninsurable scorpion.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
It makes no sense whatsoever that the widow gets an e-war bonus while the other bops get no bonuses to that regard. Either make them all cloaky cloaky with decent tank and dps or cloaky with ewar.
They are all based off their respective tier 1 hulls.
The widow is the worst of the bunch, since ewar ships have no tanks and are always primaried. yes please to a 650m uninsurable scorpion.
You can only primary something you can see...
Like a falcon its a crazy support ewar craft and is definetly the best of the 4.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:38:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Like a falcon its a crazy support ewar craft
...
no
The widow isn't anything like the falcon. It's like the scorpion.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
Like a falcon its a crazy support ewar craft
...
no
The widow isn't anything like the falcon. It's like the scorpion.
You're both wrong, you can easily tank a Widow better than a Sin or Panther, while still having 3 fully bonused (as large a bonus as rook/falcon + 2 signal distortion amps) ECM, 750 DPS to 30k, and its cloak and covert jump portal gen. If you use it as a support vessel, 7-8 ECM at range, (like the falcon or scorp you have suggested) you've presumably bridged in some mates to actually tackle and kill the target, seeing as you are doing neither. In that case, why not bridge in a falcon, which will do as much ECM as you while locking faster and costing less, and you yourself stay cloaked at the jump in? Why risk your expensive ship to do a job it is inferior at, when your ship is actualyl designed to bring in the superior EW support ship?
The widow is the best black ops because it can accomplish its' tank/gank/bridge role as well or better than the other 3, but do a kitsune's worth of ecm at the same time, saving its arse in a bad situation and also potentially saving your support's arse. Note this is the only EW boat without an ecm range bonus and WITH acceptable dps. If you had EW bonus's on the other blackops, they wouldnt be any less the offensive ships of a cloaking gang, but they would be able to use a few EW modules to help defend themselves against odds and incapacitate targets. The widow is the same, except it already has its EW bonus. Just because its got 8 mids doesnt mean you need to use them for ECM, because its a shield tank.
Those that think all the black ops shouldnt be used up close (<30k) are, in my opinion, missing the point. They make poor ranged ships, with little damage at that range, and their entire point is to operate with 2-3 support ships behind enemy lines. None of the available support (bomber, covops, force recon) has acceptble DPS to gank enemy ratters or small gangs before help arrives. A battleship does. You cant have 10 recons, instead of 2, because you cant bridge that many, due to cargohold and fuel requirements. If the black ops is only used as a bridge and a little bit of ranged support for its meagre 2 recon mates, yes, you will lose it less often than one flown agressively. You'll still lose it eventually, as enemy backup arrives long before the target is dead, and you will kill a lot less over the lifespan, and get laughed at by a lot of ratting drakes.
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Mercenary Forces |
Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ulstan on 02/04/2008 16:42:20
Quote:
The widow is the best black ops because it can accomplish its' tank/gank/bridge role as well or better than the other 3
But the widow doesn't have a tank/gank role. It has an ECM role which would be filled equally well by the scorpion in a fleet, or much much better by a falcon in a small gang.
People wouldn't use a widow in a small gang for the same reason they don't use a scorpion in a small gang.
For this reason, the other black ops ships are slightly better: they would make useful additions to a small gang as small gangs usually do use some battleships.
No one in their right mind would take a T2 battleship of any kind into a fleet fight, given how easily they'd be destroyed and the insurance issue.
So, the blackops ships are more or less limited to opening jump gates for small gangs (which they fail miserably at) and then participating in small gang combat. If you're jumping a team of recons through, you've got ECM more than covered with rook and falcon. What you need is some additional DPS and ships with some actual staying power in combat. Other blackops are better at this than the widow, so why not use them instead?
But frankly, all blackops needs a boost, especially in the size of the gang they can jump and how far they can jump it. They just dont' really have a well defined 'niche' atm. They are t2 battleships, so hideously expensive. Battleships are slow and thus its hard to get out of trouble when you need to. The marauders work because they are high sec pve boats. The black ops are the first attempt at making a pvp worthy t2 bs and so far they haven't been received very well.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
Like a falcon its a crazy support ewar craft
...
no
The widow isn't anything like the falcon. It's like the scorpion.
268m\s while cloaked. i assure you, its more like a falcon than a scorpion. Other than the fact it cant warp while cloaked, getting into position and being able to cyno stealthy in system makes you more recon than battleship.
Anyways wont argue with you, point is well point i made is in the thread title.
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Helios Hyperion
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:42:00 -
[11]
feel free to look up SATAN on the killboards to find out how the widow owns over the other three. I don't understand what you're missing about it. The widow can be fitted outside of it's ewar role to accomplish what the gallente and amarr ones offer only better. I can also produce t1 battleship dps with torps and drones which none of the other black ops can do. ... im pretty sure if any blob sees ANY black ops ship its going to get primaried.. no one cares about its ewar capability, they care about it's stupid pricetag.
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Ulstan
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:46:00 -
[12]
The falcon is cruiser, small, nimble, fast locking, has a bonus to long range jamming, and can warp while cloaked.
The scorpion is a battleship, slow, clumsy, trash locking time, doesn't have a bonus to long range jamming, and can't warp while cloaked.
They're nothing alike.
The widow is essentially simply a slightly faster scorpion with a cloak.
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Helios Hyperion
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:52:00 -
[13]
or a slightly slower falcon with GANK
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:55:00 -
[14]
The widow is closer to a raven that can jam, than a falcon.
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Helios Hyperion
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:56:00 -
[15]
what's wrong with that? just cus a raven can spider gang with the megathrons.. 
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El Yatta
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Posted - 2008.04.02 17:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 02/04/2008 16:42:20
Quote:
The widow is the best black ops because it can accomplish its' tank/gank/bridge role as well or better than the other 3
But the widow doesn't have a tank/gank role. It has an ECM role which would be filled equally well by the scorpion in a fleet, or much much better by a falcon in a small gang.
People wouldn't use a widow in a small gang for the same reason they don't use a scorpion in a small gang.
For this reason, the other black ops ships are slightly better: they would make useful additions to a small gang as small gangs usually do use some battleships.
No one in their right mind would take a T2 battleship of any kind into a fleet fight, given how easily they'd be destroyed and the insurance issue.
So, the blackops ships are more or less limited to opening jump gates for small gangs (which they fail miserably at) and then participating in small gang combat. If you're jumping a team of recons through, you've got ECM more than covered with rook and falcon. What you need is some additional DPS and ships with some actual staying power in combat. Other blackops are better at this than the widow, so why not use them instead?
No, you didnt read, and you clearly havent tried it out. The widow DOES have a tank/gank role. It has 2 weapons bonus, which give it nearly the DPS of a torp raven, with good range. Similarly, all the other black ops have their t1 bonus -1 weapon (the panther is a tempest effectively here, the widow a raven), which makes them THE dps ship in a cloaking gang. Any other dps ship you care to mention is irrelevant because its not portal-able, and if you're not using the portal, a blackops shouldnt be in your gang, it should be a t1 bs with or without a cloak on it. With this dps (about 3-4x what any other portal-able ship can accomplish, and easily sufficient to gank your enemies ratting, travelling, behind their lines), comes enough slots, BS hp, and a bit of T2 (not full) resist allowing a nice tank, giving it sufficient staying power. In this regard, the Widow is comparable or BETTER than any other black ops, being a shield tanker, WHILE still leaving 2-3 slots free for ECM. Which gives it even MORe staying power.
I'd also argue you're TWICE wrong - not only DOES it have a tank/gank/bridge role, it DOESNT really have an EW role because its iNFERIOR at that to every other ecm ship - no range bonus, poorest locking time, far too expensive to be used as a fleet ship.
You're only right when you say the Widow is a small gang ship, and then you go on to say the other black ops do this better? How so? The widow can out-dps the panther while outranging and out-tanking it. However the panther has its special ability of far greater mobility and can tackle at the same time. The widow has the special ability of added ECM. Its got a free kitsune ******* bolted on the side, effectively.
The sin and the redeemer can out-gank it, but at much lower ranges, and only the sin can out-tank it (by using a 6slot shield tank over the widow's 5 with 3 ecm). The widow still HAS the ability to out-tank and out-range that sin by using a 6-8 slot tank, but of course is then neglecting its special ability.
The widow and panther have worse DPS but similar staying power and the "special abilities" of ECM or speed. The redeemer and sin have similar staying power, better DPs but less ability to get out of trouble or disable enemies. They can ALL gank, they can ALL be the DPS ship in a cloaking portal gang (which no other ship class than blackops in the game can fulfil). The widow is no worse at those while having an EW ability at the same time.
You'd have to be mental not to see it.
What the redeemer and sin really need is a fun ability like the panther and widow, to be honest. I like the idea of making the redeemer tankier and the sin either gankier or EW
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Mercenary Forces |
Erotic Irony
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:02:00 -
[17]
the possibility of using the bridge role is so remote and impractical its silly to even talk about it as an advantage in its current incarnation, everything is wrong here--no fitting for tank, no room for 800 charges AND jump fuel, reliance on unreal two digit cap skills
unless there are dramatic bonus, like triple jump range and vastly reduced bridge cost, these things will remain the theory crafter's wet dream
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Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.02 20:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
the possibility of using the bridge role is so remote and impractical its silly to even talk about it as an advantage in its current incarnation, everything is wrong here--no fitting for tank, no room for 800 charges AND jump fuel, reliance on unreal two digit cap skills
unless there are dramatic bonus, like triple jump range and vastly reduced bridge cost, these things will remain the theory crafter's wet dream
in other words , just like bombs.
I should know I get into huge argument about how they MUST BE USEFUL. but in the end I always admit I'm wrong :(
I used to think I was right untill I found out that killing the SB or cloaking makes the bomb go offline. if that is the case bombs only work if you can tank the blob for 15 mins...
so yeah same thing as a black op battleship, great idea, not very useful... yet.
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Nhi'Khuna
Strife Mercenaries Inc.
Rejuvenate
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Posted - 2008.04.02 21:47:00 -
[19]
I find this post very interesting. I've been sitting on a SIN for a good while now. Have all skills trained for bridges and covert cynos on my main and my alt to provide the bridge.
The trouble I have is in the build. With the hefty 1500 PG requirement on the jump bridge when a Sin already has 250pg less than the Domi I'm having a real difficult time fitting it.
Like others, I want to believe that this ship has a useful and practical role as I'm totally in love with covert recons and ewar ships but I've yet to see how I can practiaclly achieve this.
If anyone knows of a good fit for this ship I'd be greatly interested in hearing it.
Nhi.
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Adago Vilon
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Posted - 2008.04.03 08:52:00 -
[20]
Having done some testing, I find the jump portal is not even relieable enough to ensure you can jump your gang through to the cov cyno ship. Often recons/bombers cannot jump through. For that reason it makes these ships useless.
Please de-alphabetise local! Sort it by time spent in local. I don't want to be at the top of local anymore. Ta!
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Julio Torres
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Posted - 2008.04.03 09:19:00 -
[21]
To the Widow's defense, its based on the Scorpion. Which is the ONLY e-war battleship.
Not that TD/NOS bonus on my Redeemer would do a whole lot to its usefullness...
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.04.03 09:47:00 -
[22]
Because the other types of ewar would either be pretty useless or overpowered as hell.
Useless bonuses on a BS:
- Tracking disruptors. (On a BS, doesn't do **** to cruisers shooting you, even given a 20% bonus/level.)
- Target painters.
- Sensor dampeners.
Highly overpowered on a BS:
- NOS/Neut strength and/or range.
- Web range.
That leaves warp disruptor range, which is the only one not useless or overpowered.
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2008.04.03 11:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Xequecal
Because the other types of ewar would either be pretty useless or overpowered as hell.
Useless bonuses on a BS:
- Tracking disruptors. (On a BS, doesn't do **** to cruisers shooting you, even given a 20% bonus/level.)
- Target painters.
- Sensor dampeners.
Highly overpowered on a BS:
- NOS/Neut strength and/or range.
- Web range.
That leaves warp disruptor range, which is the only one not useless or overpowered.
this is EXACTLY what i was thinking, but someone also proposed a more feasible solution that i very much liked (Probably because i'm gallente) but they said that the sin and redeemer are the 2 without some sort of cool bonus to actually help them. they wanted to see redeemer more...tankier i believe and the sin more gankier. i support this 100%, as well as a little extra fitting room. the sin is already shorter on turret slots than the domi.
And the obvious needs should also be addressed: increase portal/jump range, reduce fuel cost. I realize they made it to be expensive, but they made it WAY too expensive.
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Gamesguy
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Posted - 2008.04.03 11:22:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/04/2008 11:22:09
Originally by: Xequecal
Because the other types of ewar would either be pretty useless or overpowered as hell.
Useless bonuses on a BS:
- Tracking disruptors. (On a BS, doesn't do **** to cruisers shooting you, even given a 20% bonus/level.)
- Target painters.
- Sensor dampeners.
Highly overpowered on a BS:
- NOS/Neut strength and/or range.
- Web range.
That leaves warp disruptor range, which is the only one not useless or overpowered.
Neut strength wouldn't be overpowered, for example Bhaalgorn, web range and neut strength, and its not even a particularly good ship.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.06 21:19:00 -
[25]
doom neut bonnie on such a skill intensive/expensive ship isnt really that overpowered imho, but then again recon pilots are everywhere now and its become so saturated with rapiers etc then your prolly right in some way...
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Wardeneo
BLL Wise Guys
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.07 02:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tibilo
I would imagine that battleship sized recons may be too powerful, although maybe that would alright given their price.
so what about the widow adn its ECM boni - 2 powerfull - or about ok for the price
i agree ammar black ops get neut boni - min gets webba dn gellente gets damps ^^
wardeneo
If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :) |
Xequecal
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.07 05:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Neut strength wouldn't be overpowered, for example Bhaalgorn, web range and neut strength, and its not even a particularly good ship.
The Bhaalgorn has gimped fitting stats and no damage bonus. It also gets only half recon version of the nos/neut bonus and one fourth of the web bonus.
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Kai Lae
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.07 06:06:00 -
[28]
Black ops need 1 big improvement - they need a bay that you can only put fuel in, for jumping and portaling. Currently they just don't have enough cargo space to port around all the kinds of ammo they need, plus fuel.
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Rabid Rich
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.04.07 06:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Xequecal
Because the other types of ewar would either be pretty useless or overpowered as hell.
Useless bonuses on a BS:
- Tracking disruptors. (On a BS, doesn't do **** to cruisers shooting you, even given a 20% bonus/level.)
- Target painters.
- Sensor dampeners.
Highly overpowered on a BS:
- NOS/Neut strength and/or range.
- Web range.
That leaves warp disruptor range, which is the only one not useless or overpowered.
actually TD's with range dampening scripts are pretty damn good on certain BS. Amarr and minnie BSes can use them well against cruisers and BS alike. (web+td on a geddon is pretty good to mess with orbiting cruisers, td on a pest or phoon is great vs megas/geddons). both the panther and redeemer could make good use of range TDing from 20-30km with a rapier wingman say.
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