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The Marauder, The Vargur and The Powergrid.

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Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:32:00 - [1] I have heard good and sound arguments from many directions, even non-minmatar players agree. The Vargur is broken. I have also heard some great suggestions, and here is my take: All the Marauders seem to be designed to be good at PVE, namely: Ratting and Missioning All the Marauders are excellent at both, except the Vargur. The Vargur can only do Ratting because of the meager powergrid it has plus the rather high powergrid requirements for T2 Large Artillery as the majority of L4 Missions are best done with long range weapons. All the Marauders except the Vargur are able to fit the biggest T2 variants of their large weapons, with grid to spare and I repeat: Except the Vargur. Increasing the Vargur's powergrid would make it overpowered because it would be able to fit heavy energy neutralizers and large remote armor repairers while still having a full rack of the largest t2 autocannons, while still retaining a feasible tank and still have enough lowslots for damage mod's / cap mods / nano... Hell, you might even be able to fit a AB/MWD and coupled with the minmatar turrets not using capacitor would make it overpowered for PVP. Not to mention it has the lowest Sensor Strenght so it is the most vulnerable to sensor jamming. It's got 11 points. (For reference: Caldari=14/Gallente=13/Amarr=12) I could even post a fit for the Paladin (Amarr) that has 4xT2 Pulses+2xNeuts+2xLAR+Hardening Setup that can run "forever" (32x800 Cap Booster Charges) PVP wise with a Sensor Strenght of 23,5 using only T2 modules, rigs and the +3% to PG implant and with relevant skills at LVL 5. (Fitting a 500+ mil ship here) If the Vargur would get a powergrid boost it would be easier for it to do the same and be more cap stable with one more neut, Okay I can agree that it would probably be way too powerful but it would also be the first ship to be jammed. (This could see the use the remote sensor strenght boosting (sensor linking?) be more used more, might be a nice aspect to EVE PVP, even more so when thinking about "Capital Ships Online".) Okay, so even if there isn't a chance the Vargur wil get more powergrid (CCP design policy?) I propose this: The Vargur is similar to the Golem what tanking concerns, the Golem has 7 midslots to fit a shield tank and the Vargur has 6 midslots, my point here is that they require roughly the same amount of powergrid after fitting weapons systems to fit a feasible / realisticly usable tank. Also when using Artillery fitting an afterburner is mandatory. (The Caldari doesn't have tracking issues, check Liang Nuren's comparison and his nicely made graphs, where she/he compares the damage the Marauders can do at the range 0-100 km, even with Artillery it has subpar performance, and we can't even fit that!) The Golem can fit a full rack of both T2 Cruise Launchers (Long range) and T2 Torpedo Launchers (Short Range) with a usable abount of powergrid to spare. ( 3398,2 for T2 Cruise / 1508,2 for T2 Torpedos) Special Bonus for the Vargur ("Special Price for you my friend!"-Style): - The bonus would be a minus precentage reduction to Large Projectile Artillery Turrets, I used excel and found out that in order to get roughly the same grid left after fitting 4x1400mms the Vargur would need a bonus of 35%-45% reduced powergrid requirements. At 35% less PG usage it would have 1509,5 PG left and at 45% PG requriement reducion it would end up with 3440 PG left, so essentially what you would be doing by putting this special bonus on the Vargur is turning the T2 1400mm into T2 Cruise Launchers POWERGRID USAGE-wise. Now we can start discussing what the precentage should be! :) Here is a chart to help you guys out: "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:51:00 - [2] I actually posted this suggestion on Scrapheap before the ship even got to live. It's a decent idea, if a bit hokey; no other ships really get '-X% modifier to fitting requirement of Y' except for modules that specifically fit their role (e.g. covert ops cloaks or cruise launchers). But not being able to fit artillery is an annoyance, even if artillery is underpowered in general (compare the DPS of an artillery Vargur to a Tachyon Paladin, for instance). I'd say go for it, but really, even with the ability to fit artillery the Vargur is the worst of the Marauders for PVP or PVE.
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Triest I actually posted this suggestion on Scrapheap before the ship even got to live. It's a decent idea, if a bit hokey; no other ships really get '-X% modifier to fitting requirement of Y' except for modules that specifically fit their role (e.g. covert ops cloaks or cruise launchers). But not being able to fit artillery is an annoyance, even if artillery is underpowered in general (compare the DPS of an artillery Vargur to a Tachyon Paladin, for instance). I'd say go for it, but really, even with the ability to fit artillery the Vargur is the worst of the Marauders for PVP or PVE. I agree on it being the worst. Getting this "boost" could be considered as some kind of redemtion. ;) "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Shadowsword	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:07:00 - [4] No, just no. No ship should ever get a fitting bonus that other ships of the same class haven't. You want, artilleries on the Vargur? Me, too, but for the the FIRST thing to do is to ask for autocanons powergrid requirments to be increased. Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. ------------------------------------------ Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:16:00 - [5] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 22:17:24 Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 03/04/2008 22:16:55 Originally by: Shadowsword No, just no. No ship should ever get a fitting bonus that other ships of the same class haven't. Would it really be the end of the world? I wouldn't care if you gave the paladin/kronos/golem the same type of fitting bonus, so long as gimp their grid as well. Originally by: Shadowsword You want, artilleries on the Vargur? Me, too, but for the the FIRST thing to do is to ask for autocanons powergrid requirments to be increased. And have to rebalance every minmatar ship? Not that this would be a bad thing, but I doubt CCP would do it. Originally by: Shadowsword Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. And completely ignore the Pulse/Neut and Blaster/Neut monstrosities that can already exist?
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Shadowsword No, just no. No ship should ever get a fitting bonus that other ships of the same class haven't. You want, artilleries on the Vargur? Me, too, but for the the FIRST thing to do is to ask for autocanons powergrid requirments to be increased. Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. Yes, It might seem unfair to the other Marauders, but as far as I see its the only way to keep CCP and the players of eve happy. Increasing the grid reqs. for AC's will hurt other ships as well, like the Typhoon. I know that this solution might look as a cheap "fix" but when you change the grid requirements for the AC's you would need to reconsider the PG of all the other Minmatar ships that might use them, you are essentially doing the same thing this one just might be easier, although I'm not sure if they could give the Vargur my proposed bonus even if they wanted to because of how modules work, It's just my (and others) idea and suggestion. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 22:27:00 - [7] Originally by: Shadowsword No, just no. No ship should ever get a fitting bonus that other ships of the same class haven't. You want, artilleries on the Vargur? Me, too, but for the the FIRST thing to do is to ask for autocanons powergrid requirments to be increased. Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. I don't like the "additional bonus for Vargur because it's special" idea either, but you're seriously suggesting rebalancing a whole weapon system and race is the smartest way to fix one silly PvE ship? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.04.04 13:32:00 - [8] I just realized I'm not getting much of a discussion on this thread, maybe it would be better to move this thread to either the Game Development Forum or the Features and Ideas Discussion please? Pretty please?! "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.04.04 13:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: Shadowsword Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. And completely ignore the Pulse/Neut and Blaster/Neut monstrosities that can already exist? Pulse/neuts and blaster/neut boats can't keep firing when they don't have cap anymore. ------------------------------------------
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: Shadowsword Then, and only then, an increase of powergrid on the Vargur will be possible without giving birth to an AC/neut monstruosity. And completely ignore the Pulse/Neut and Blaster/Neut monstrosities that can already exist? Pulse/neuts and blaster/neut boats can't keep firing when they don't have cap anymore. But they will have cap for far more time than the target of their neutralizers... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Stefan F	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:29:00 - [11] Its just fact that the bigger the minmatar ships get, the more they suck (and the smaller the more they rock). For amarr its just the other way around, they shine in BS-size and up (after the last amarr buff though their cruisers and up also rock), just accept there are differences between the different races (thank god there is) and train another race if you think its better. I'm also flying minmatar for their small ships and caldari for the larger ones.
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.04.04 14:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Stefan F Its just fact that the bigger the minmatar ships get, the more they suck (and the smaller the more they rock). For amarr its just the other way around, they shine in BS-size and up (after the last amarr buff though their cruisers and up also rock), just accept there are differences between the different races (thank god there is) and train another race if you think its better. I'm also flying minmatar for their small ships and caldari for the larger ones. While I accept this fact, the Vargur is out classed by the Maelstrom, which is another minmatar ship. Why would anyone train for a T2 ship when a T1 ship that costs 500mil less can do the same job?
Jeetah Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:12:00 - [13] Bad idea. It still wouldn't offer any real advantage over the maelstrom. Or rather, you could chose wether you want better tank (maelstrom, having +1 rig, and +7.5% shield boost, unless you train marauders to 5) or you want a ship that can more or less salvage and loot at the same time while running missions (vargur). But in my experience, I'd rahter have a proper salvaging ship with 4 x 20km tractor + 4 x salvager + 2.5km^3 cargo, than 1-2 x 40km tractor, and crappy cargo at best. The vargur needs much more to make the investement in both ISK and time worthwile.
CmdoColin Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:13:00 - [14] Vargur as every Minmatar ship requires is a new approach. Each of the Maraders actually requires this. Where an Apoc uses pulse, a Paladin has the edge with tacyons. With this one, it's a shield tanker and AC boat. Use Ambit (falloff increases) t2 rigs. What it does need are tracking computers with falloff scripts. Or if that makes it too PvP viable, bring in tracking enhancers that are falloff enhancers - same grid/power. Using just t1 ammo, you can hit every ship at it's orbit range if you stay put. There are 3 Sansha battleships and 4 blood raider battleships you'll struggle with with phased plasma, and you might have to switch to proton. As such if anything needs fixing I'd drop the tracking bonus and give it an additional 7.5% falloff bonus for each level of Marauder skill level. Audita et altera pars
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.04 16:18:00 - [15] Edited by: Kelbesque Crystalis on 04/04/2008 16:18:02 Originally by: CmdoColin Vargur as every Minmatar ship requires is a new approach. Each of the Maraders actually requires this. Where an Apoc uses pulse, a Paladin has the edge with tacyons. With this one, it's a shield tanker and AC boat. Use Ambit (falloff increases) t2 rigs. What it does need are tracking computers with falloff scripts. Or if that makes it too PvP viable, bring in tracking enhancers that are falloff enhancers - same grid/power. Using just t1 ammo, you can hit every ship at it's orbit range if you stay put. There are 3 Sansha battleships and 4 blood raider battleships you'll struggle with with phased plasma, and you might have to switch to proton. As such if anything needs fixing I'd drop the tracking bonus and give it an additional 7.5% falloff bonus for each level of Marauder skill level. Do the math. Even with 2x T2 falloff rigs, you are still doing less DPS at 50km than you would be on a Maelstrom with artillery. Anyone who claims "Carnage at 65km lols" is imagining things or has never run a properly setup Maelstrom. Enough falloff to make the ship really viable in missions would make it OP in PvP. ---------- The tracking bonus and falloff bonus would be enough of a reason to train for this ship, if you could setup a reasonable Arty setup. As it stands, those are effectively lost since you'd have to take off tracking and/or DPS mods to make artillery fit properly. The reduced # of rigs slots is compensated by the fact that is has better base cap regen. Of course this goes out the window when you have to fill your rigs slots with ACR's or falloff rigs to even come close to being competitive.
Myrkala	Posted - 2008.04.04 16:52:00 - [16] I also implore everyone that is going to post, at least have a look at Liang Nuren's great comparison on the Marauders, the Maelstrom and the Machariel, to which I have provided everyone a link in my OP. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Zaran Darkstar	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:49:00 - [17] Suggestion: Give it the Tempest bonus to guns remove a turret slot and add a missile slot. Keep the other bonuses as they are. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Kelbesque Crystalis Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.04 19:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Suggestion: Give it the Tempest bonus to guns remove a turret slot and add a missile slot. Keep the other bonuses as they are. So now its a Mach with a tractor bonus?
Cilppiz	Posted - 2008.04.04 22:49:00 - [19] CCP got it wrong with Minnie t2 battleships when they disregarded all the skillpoints decent Minnie pilots have on missiles. In my opinion Vargur should have had mixed weapon system with 50% missile and 50% turret hardpoints and then dual bonuses for example like this: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus -5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level -> 5% bonus to large projectiles, siege and cruise missile launcher rate of fire per level -10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level -> 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff and cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level Marauder Skill Bonus -7.5% bonus to shield boost amount -> no need to fix this -7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level -> 7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking and cruise missile and torpedo velocity and explosion velocity per level (dont get hang on actual bonuses, I made em up as I was writing this. Im just trying to point out how true dual weapon system platforms should get bonuses instead of how its done with Typhoon) Sure this would mean Vargur would get bit shafted when fitting damage mods but that might be something CCP could fix by increasing that 5% rof bonus if necessary... I have to admit that Im running out of imagination to figure how Vargurs PG would have to be tuned to prevent crazy 2xAC, 2x Siege + 3x Neut combos... Could it be that CCP didnt manage to do it either? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Zaran Darkstar	Posted - 2008.04.05 04:48:00 - [20] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 05/04/2008 04:54:07 Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Suggestion: Give it the Tempest bonus to guns remove a turret slot and add a missile slot. Keep the other bonuses as they are. So now its a Mach with a tractor bonus? That's oversimplified. The Machariel has 6 bonused turrets + 2 highs (unbonused)where you can fit 2 missile launchers. The Vargur will have actually 3 turrets that deal double damage = 6 bonused turrets + 1 high where it could fit only 1 missile launcher (unbonused) Therefore the Machariel would still have more firepower but less defence capability compaired to the Vargur. (although it will be still a very good armor tanker so especially against foes that deal more Em/Thermal it will be even better) So it won't be a Mach with a tractor bonus actually the Machariel is more incline to armor tanking while the Vargur is a shield tanker. So the 2 ships will still have major differences. I gave a look at the contracts window. There is not a single Macharile for sale apart from people that [want to buy] . That means that people have gone crazy for the Machariel because the Vargur is unable to fullfill its role. Even after the suggested changes i would still prefer the Machariel but i would at least have a viable alternative. I also generally agree with Cilppiz's suggestions. My only concern is that if you give it a bonus both to turrets and missiles people may start say it will be overpowering and that is why my suggestion was less "flashy" . _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
zayanka Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.05 11:24:00 - [21] Edited by: zayanka on 05/04/2008 11:36:26 i dont agree that vargur need a big pg boost or a special bonus to fit arties. Here is my point Marauders r rather expensive ships to fly so they deserve faction mods fitted. 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, CCC t1 and CCC t2 This setup is expensive, it does fit and according to EFT it tanks 1200+ dps in omni tank + it is absolutly cap stable. Now you r going to scream that you have 2 fiting mods there and bla bla bla. Yes you need those mods to balace the ship (please have a look at paladin setup). Because without those fitting mods I would fit DC T2 in there and I would be able to tank 1400 dps (which is a bit overpowered) Now lets have a look at the Paladin Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer (I use a-type rep, X-type here just for comparison reason) Centus B-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Centus B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Centus B-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink 3 x Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier 4 x Amarr Navy Mega Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I 2 x Salvager I Capacitor Control Circuit II Auxiliary Nano Pump II Now what we get with this fit, 900 dps tank (way less compare to Vargur), barely cap stable (runs out of cap in 16 minutes in EFT, in game i dont need to run tank for that long, but I still prefer to be able to run the tank non stop, incase of CTD), Unable to fit biggest guns and no place for fitting mods. So why r you constanly arguing about vargur ??? WHat do you want ??? A ship wich tanks 1500 DPS, shoot at 90+ k with hardest hitting guns ? And being absolutely cap stable at the same time ?
zayanka Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.05 11:28:00 - [22] Exuse me, vargur lovers, you can also stick in Crystal set and enjoy an insane tank of 2000+ dps in omni mode. People who fly paladins and Kronos's cant even dream of that
Cilppiz FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.05 12:14:00 - [23] You forgot to mention the superior DPS and tracking
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.05 12:20:00 - [24] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 05/04/2008 12:33:22 Originally by: zayanka Edited by: zayanka on 05/04/2008 11:36:26 i dont agree that vargur need a big pg boost or a special bonus to fit arties. Here is my point Marauders r rather expensive ships to fly so they deserve faction mods fitted. 3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Reactor Control Unit True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II 4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, CCC t1 and CCC t2 This setup is expensive, it does fit and according to EFT it tanks 1200+ dps in omni tank + it is absolutly cap stable. Now you r going to scream that you have 2 fiting mods there and bla bla bla. Yes you need those mods to balace the ship (please have a look at paladin setup). Because without those fitting mods I would fit DC T2 in there and I would be able to tank 1400 dps (which is a bit overpowered) Now lets have a look at the Paladin Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer (I use a-type rep, X-type here just for comparison reason) Centus B-Type Armor Explosive Hardener Centus B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Centus B-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink 3 x Cap Recharger II Domination Stasis Webifier 4 x Amarr Navy Mega Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I 2 x Salvager I Capacitor Control Circuit II Auxiliary Nano Pump II Now what we get with this fit, 900 dps tank (way less compare to Vargur), barely cap stable (runs out of cap in 16 minutes in EFT, in game i dont need to run tank for that long, but I still prefer to be able to run the tank non stop, incase of CTD), Unable to fit biggest guns and no place for fitting mods. So why r you constanly arguing about vargur ??? WHat do you want ??? A ship wich tanks 1500 DPS, shoot at 90+ k with hardest hitting guns ? And being absolutely cap stable at the same time ? Your arguments are very weak and i ll show you why. I put your fitting in EFT. The values were: (with all skills lvl5, no drones taken into account) 1251 Defence, 529DPS Then i took your modules and put them into a Maelstorm I made the fitting as follows since Maelstorm has more slots i added tech 2 stuff in them so that you can't say i used more faction/complex modules than you in number. 3xRepublic fleet gyros 2xCap flux coil II 1xGist C type X large 1xGist B type boost amp 3xDread guristas invulnerbility 1xShield boost amp II 8x1400 II 2 ccc rigs tech 1 , 1 ccc tech 2 1412 defence , 552DPS That shows that with the same and actually less amount of these specific type (exotic) modules you mentioned Maelstorm > Vargur which shouldn't be. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.05 12:31:00 - [25] ____________________________________________ So why r you constanly arguing about vargur ??? WHat do you want ??? A ship wich tanks 1500 DPS, shoot at 90+ k with hardest hitting guns ? And being absolutely cap stable at the same time ? __________________________________________ No,i just want a Marauder that offers something more than the T1 BS variant. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
voidvim	Posted - 2008.04.05 13:31:00 - [26] Originally by: zayanka Expensive stuff When cheap T1 ship with cheap T2 stuff, or different T2 ship in the same class does the job as good or better (thus far better risk V reward) some thing is wrong Eve as PvP and PvE game is not balance around office, deadspace mods. As any ship can be made to look great with them fitted IE a Rifter with a two 50% to all shield resistances. A fair balance in this case is hard as the grid of auto cannons and artys vary a lot and thus CCP IMHO failed to find a way to balance it and just dump it in game pre-nurfed. Like Black OP where put in game pre-nurfed to be boost later (see dev blogs). I consider this thread to be well written and does a great job of proving the points made and coming up with one of many solutions that could work. Also the link to the post with graphs is nice adds depth. Keep up the good work and nice links too. Salvaging guide:moon materials guide
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.05 15:06:00 - [27] You stole my idea Well, maybe you did... haven't seen anyone suggest a "role bonus" like I did before me. Couldn't be arsed with charts or even calculating what percentage of PG decrease would be considered proper so all props to you ofc Boink!
Shofix Umgeh	Posted - 2008.04.06 00:24:00 - [28] Well - I'll be honest - I'm too drunk to read all the suggestions, but anything that fixes the Vargur's complete inability to fit Artillery is a good suggestion in my book, so good job... probably...
Hotice Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 03:35:00 - [29] The whole reason that vargur is prenerfed is to limite it's use for pvp. So, let's find a solution to that by adding another ship stat to all the marauders: All nosf/neut range and effectiveness is reduced by 50% on all marauder ships. Then you don't have to worry about people fitting nosf/neut on vargur or any other marauders now. Now ccp can give vargur pg to fit large arti without worry much anymore. Marauders are pve ships, so we can keep them that way. Put in debuffs for pvp modules to keep them away from pvp use is a rather simply solution.
Lance Fighter Safe Haven North Star Confederation	Posted - 2008.04.06 04:12:00 - [30] I wonder if liang ever thought to fit a web on the pally setup. That would definatly change the graphs in the Pally's favor, in that limited 0-15km category. With a Domination web, the pally would be the clear winner... Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that doesnot have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance towards people with sigs.

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