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War declarations.

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MidnightMartyr	Posted - 2008.04.07 03:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Cipher7 Starting a player corp without planning for wardec should be considered griefing. You sir, win a cookie for this EPIC post.
F'nog	Posted - 2008.04.07 03:52:00 - [32] It sounds like you're been dec'd by gankbears. They want juicy solo targets who won't/can't put up a fight. Any time anyone offers even token resistance they run and hide. There's nothing you can do about this except move your operation elsewhere and hope they find another target, or camp them in stations until they get bored and find someone else who's helpless. My corp dealt with literally dozens of these wars in our early days. We were the largest corp in Eve, so lots of gankbears assumed we were easy targets. When we showed we'd actually defend ourselves, or not play their games they moved on. Many of them we never even saw in space. As long as you show them solo miners who can't defend themselves, they'll, and others, will keep coming at you. Show them you have teeth and the patience to defend yourselves, and most won't bother unless it's personal. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Sionide THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.04.07 04:43:00 - [33] If you can't handle all the bad that comes with the good in starting a new corp, then don't. Simple as that. No one is forcing you. === In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 05:01:00 - [34] Originally by: F'nog It sounds like you're been dec'd by gankbears. They want juicy solo targets who won't/can't put up a fight. Any time anyone offers even token resistance they run and hide. There's nothing you can do about this except move your operation elsewhere and hope they find another target, or camp them in stations until they get bored and find someone else who's helpless. My corp dealt with literally dozens of these wars in our early days. We were the largest corp in Eve, so lots of gankbears assumed we were easy targets. When we showed we'd actually defend ourselves, or not play their games they moved on. Many of them we never even saw in space. As long as you show them solo miners who can't defend themselves, they'll, and others, will keep coming at you. Show them you have teeth and the patience to defend yourselves, and most won't bother unless it's personal. Our miners know better than to show their faces. We haven't lost ANY non-military ships. They aren't going to get bored, because we are sure they are playing other accounts while we camp them. They will follow us anywhere. We have NOTHING we can do. Why should we have to put up with these people who are maintaining a wardec just so they can chase someone down who is on solo? They can't even catch me in a dead end system. As far as I'm concerned, the definition of griefing is deliberately taking advantage of game mechanics to impede other peoples ability to enjoy the game. What would I enjoy? Being able to run missions without having to keep People + Places open and my eye on local, OR to blow their sorry asses into subatomic particles. Minna miteite kure
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 05:04:00 - [35] Originally by: MidnightMartyr Originally by: Cipher7 Starting a player corp without planning for wardec should be considered griefing. You sir, win a cookie for this EPIC post. We were planned for the eventuality. We just didn't plan for a wardeccing by people that don't care whether or not they get to fight, and will only chase after solos but dock when more than one of us is online. Minna miteite kure
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2008.04.07 05:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Kami Nodachi Originally by: MidnightMartyr Originally by: Cipher7 Starting a player corp without planning for wardec should be considered griefing. You sir, win a cookie for this EPIC post. We were planned for the eventuality. We just didn't plan for a wardeccing by people that don't care whether or not they get to fight, and will only chase after solos but dock when more than one of us is online. so then get a few people together and run a group mining/mission op Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 06:04:00 - [37] Here is a thought. Wardecs on corps under 6 months old should be taxed by the empires to promote economic growth. The cost of wardeccing a new corp should be roughly half as wardeccing an alliance. Minna miteite kure
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.07 06:08:00 - [38] So, all you'd need to do would be to change corp every 5 months and 29 days, and get all the benefits but not much of the drawbacks ? Too exploitable. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 06:48:00 - [39] Originally by: Akita T So, all you'd need to do would be to change corp every 5 months and 29 days, and get all the benefits but not much of the drawbacks ? Too exploitable. You got a better idea? Minna miteite kure
Sionide	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Kami Nodachi Originally by: Akita T So, all you'd need to do would be to change corp every 5 months and 29 days, and get all the benefits but not much of the drawbacks ? Too exploitable. You got a better idea? Yes, deal with it nub. === In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.

Baka Lakadaka Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:05:00 - [41] Originally by: Kami Nodachi Originally by: MidnightMartyr Originally by: Cipher7 Starting a player corp without planning for wardec should be considered griefing. You sir, win a cookie for this EPIC post. We were planned for the eventuality. We just didn't plan for a wardeccing by people that don't care whether or not they get to fight, and will only chase after solos but dock when more than one of us is online. I'm a bit confused. Are they a problem, or do they just run away every time a few of you log in together? If they're running every time you get a gang together, why not just keep forming gangs? The idea of a corp is mutual support afterall, do them some damage and make them go away. If your corp isn't geared for mutual support, then it's doomed to failure from the start. Cheers Baka ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Kami Nodachi	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:31:00 - [42] If anyone goes out solo while they are online, they can't do anything. Its more of an annoyance than anything else. But last time I checked games weren't supposed to annoy people. Minna miteite kure
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Kami Nodachi If anyone goes out solo while they are online, they can't do anything. Its more of an annoyance than anything else. But last time I checked games weren't supposed to annoy people. There's your problem. You are in a corp, you should do as much as possible as a corp. That means instead of trying to chase those people into their stations, use your warships to escort those miners who you are now letting out unprotected. And have everyone who wants to play outside of operation windows set up an alt and beat the gankbears at their own game. Only undock on your mains when you are together, never give them a solo resources to pick off and they should soon look out for greener pastures. Right now it is still cost effective to war dec you because you do not protect your resourcing operations enough.
Gartel Reiman	Posted - 2008.04.07 07:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Kami Nodachi If anyone goes out solo while they are online, they can't do anything. If you want to do things solo while online with no repercussions - that's what the NPC corps are for. You won't get much help there, but you won't get any wardecs either. As people have said time and time again, wardecs are the negative aspect that come hand-in-hand with the benefits of setting up a corp. None of your members should be going out solo during a war (though given that you've lost no non-combat ships implies that they aren't, so kudos for that). Look at it this way - when you get a gang together, you're on top of them and using their own wardec to force them to be docked, as well as presumably getting a few kills from it. And if they keep popping up whenever your numbers are low, I wouldn't be too sure they're playing other characters. Anyway, if you're running missions solo then it will take a very dedicated prober to find you in the mission deadspace. If these guys are prepared to go to that much effort then they don't sound like you've described them, so you should be more or less safe in your deadspace-shrouded impromptu safespot. Quote: last time I checked games weren't supposed to annoy people. This is EVE, I like it because it challenges people. In fact, I'll go further than that and say that all the games I've really liked have annoyed me (transiently) at some point, simply because if a game doesn't emotionally engage you, and make things really hard for you at times, it won't have any real longevity. The real point here is that the classic carebear incantation of "Why can't I just be left alone to do what I want to do" holds no water. EVE is a game of non-consentual PvP, and wardecs are entirely part of that. You are proposing a bunch of changes to the wardec mechanisms (which everyone except yourself so far has seen no problem with) and you haven't really justified it beyond "I don't like how it's working now". (Besides, having to go about keeping one eye on local, working in a team with corpmates and being prepared to fight at very short notice will be excellent practice for getting about in low-sec and 0.0 later).
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 08:25:00 - [45] all the solo players dock when they come online. The war is in no way self sustaining. We are not giving them ANY kills, let alone enough to fund the wardec. It is just a major annoyance. Minna miteite kure
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.07 08:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Kami Nodachi You got a better idea? If anything, the one and only thing I'd like to see is a "pricewar" on wardecs. 2 mil weekly to wardec you ? 4 mil weekly to suspend wardec effects. 4 mil paid be wardecced corp to suspend wardec effects ? Pay 8 mil per week to override that (or keep paying 2 mil per week to make'em lose 4 per week) And back and forth like that doubling the price each time, until one can no longer afford to pay, then the wardec gets either implemented (but at a large cost) or cancelled (but again, it cost you too). Anything else, and you might as well just keep the current mechanic in place as "good enough". 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Shanur	Posted - 2008.04.07 08:37:00 - [47] It is of course possible, in theory, that the war dec didn't come from a bully corp, but that someone actually wants to drive you out of business. The fact that you are apparently unwilling to change the operating area of your corp as was suggested before suggests that you picked a location based on the availability of resources and that means you are providing competition to other players. One of those might have decided they don't want you there and has taken measures to try and force your corp to disband. War decs are an annoyance, but also a good preparation for when you decide to branch your corp out to low sec or 0.0 space, where you also are always "on" and always have to be on the lookout for raiders. Originally by: Malcanis Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 08:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Shanur It is of course possible, in theory, that the war dec didn't come from a bully corp, but that someone actually wants to drive you out of business. The fact that you are apparently unwilling to change the operating area of your corp as was suggested before suggests that you picked a location based on the availability of resources and that means you are providing competition to other players. One of those might have decided they don't want you there and has taken measures to try and force your corp to disband. War decs are an annoyance, but also a good preparation for when you decide to branch your corp out to low sec or 0.0 space, where you also are always "on" and always have to be on the lookout for raiders. Right... I'm sure the 2 or 3 miners in the corp farmed out someons precious asteroid belt. We are not unwilling to change area, THEY are willing to FOLLOW us. I am not blindly complaining about being wardecced, I am saying the mechanic is broken. Minna miteite kure
MACCHES 0ver-Cast Rising	Posted - 2008.04.07 09:21:00 - [49] Popular money-maker this one.. I'm in a new Corp, helping people into frigs, 1st cruisers, decent fittings and trying to point them in the right direction. I like doing it, and its a load easier for new players to get genuine help from a new-player Corp than it is to stay in your NPC starter corp with 600 members scattered like sticks-in-the-wind, not getting much done. Then the wardec arrives DUN! DUN! DUUUUUN!! "Let me see.. 500,000,000 ISK ransom you say? Let me check with my gaggle of Merlins + Kestrels and see if, oh why bother, no we don't have the money to spare! And if we did? You cant frickin' have it!" Simple maths time! How many Kestrels does 500,000,000 ISK buy? erm.. 2,500.. Sweet!! So here's what we think to wardec'ing new Corps. Let the endless tier1 Kezzie gankfest begin!! We've all got to learn PvP survival sometime, and its a good lesson in not getting attached to anything you work hard to achieve in EVE. Because eventually, it will explode in your face. Yeah, its cruel to persecute new-player Corps. But its a cruel, cold galaxy. --------------------------- Insert Pirate-themed remark
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 09:22:00 - [50] And this dec isnt good prep for anything. Minna miteite kure

gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2008.04.07 09:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Kami Nodachi I am saying the mechanic is broken. It seams to work for them. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Kami Nodachi	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:16:00 - [52] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Kami Nodachi I am saying the mechanic is broken. It seams to work for them. And is what they are doing working for everyone else? Is it making the game better? Minna miteite kure
Narrisse	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:18:00 - [53] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Kami Nodachi But if too many new players are scared off by jerks preying on them, then the game will cease to be. New players are scared off since 2004. Seams not to work out as can be seen here. those numbers count subscriptions. with the sheer number of players in this game with three or more accounts each, dont kid yourself into thinking this game actually has 200,000 unique users paying for it. more like 50,000 overhead in iceland must be dirt cheap
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:30:00 - [54] Originally by: Narrisse Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Kami Nodachi But if too many new players are scared off by jerks preying on them, then the game will cease to be. New players are scared off since 2004. Seams not to work out as can be seen here. those numbers count subscriptions. with the sheer number of players in this game with three or more accounts each, dont kid yourself into thinking this game actually has 200,000 unique users paying for it. more like 50,000 overhead in iceland must be dirt cheap This is a great game, and I would love for it to thrive and continue to expand... but I can't even gaurantee a friend that his rookie ship won't get blown up by someone who thinks its funny as soon as they join the corp. Minna miteite kure
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:41:00 - [55] As far as I remember, the stats were more like "on average, aprox 1.3 accounts per person". So, yeah, a minority might actually have 7-10 accounts, a few have 2, but the vast majority only one. As for the wardec mechanic, like I said, the only FEASABLE alternative implementation would be the "pricewar". Meanwhile... if you don't like wardecs, don't form a player corp, and that's it. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Cissnei Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:42:00 - [56] real rookies should not be joining a player corp, and i blast anyone i see on my new account in rookie help who says as such because i know that there is an 80% chance they are doing it looking for a free newbie mark but this is what you get from a sandbox mmorpg. it's why other more successful games - while their game mechanics are lacking - do better financially and subscription wise (well, except for real corkers like tabula rasa) than a sandbox mmorpg. the vindictive, spiteful and hateful immature player with or without real life issues will do their best to make your life terrible in game. they take a perverse pleasuer knowing it's a real life person they are screwing with and not some npc. in 2005 i came to this game with 22 other real life people. we played for about a month and then decided for purely logistical reasons of sharing resources to make our own corp two days into it we were war dec'd by a corp that started in dec 2003. t hen another. t hen another. within 4 days we were all in our pods and couldnt leave whatever station we were in. we tried going as a gang - they came back with 3 or 4 people with 20-30m skillpoints vs our less than one million sp each player and just destroyed us. our biggest gang was 12. it was destroyed by 3 of theirs. why? i asked them that. why would you do this? you dont want new players? the response from all 4 of those corps - because we can. this is why i will never let any of my money-making mining and industrial characters into any corp ever again. i have a life. i cant put 40 hours a week into any mmorpg anymore in an attempt to make back what some vindictive person took away in 1.0 for no real reason. if the devs really want this game to mimic real life and be a true sandbox, it still needs better policing. you shouldnt be able to war dec any player corp that's less than 3 months old. 3 months is plenty of time to get a player corp up and going and have a decent defense. any corp that war dec's should pay fees appropriate with the average sp level of their members. if all of their members have 30m sp's and more, it should cost them 300 million a week to maintain that war dec. too much? how do you figure that? you have 30m skillpoints. 300 million for ONE PLAYER in a week should be chump change - especially if you are such manly-man pirates
Khanto Thor	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:02:00 - [57] Edited by: Khanto Thor on 07/04/2008 11:03:51 Edited by: Khanto Thor on 07/04/2008 11:03:29 Originally by: Monkey Saturday Originally by: Kami Nodachi We can do NOTHING to protect corp members who are playing solo. And here is your problem. Don't play solo and they'll leave you alone from what you've said. If you're mining, get some of your guys in combat ships for protection. Watch local, and just play the game. Never understood people joining a corp so they can play solo just like they did in their NPC corp... ..yes thats basically it! ..when you're in an NCP corp, concord protects you and they will respond to an attack on your ship in a few secs when in hi-sec. ...so when you're in a player corp, you have to replace concord if you want to protect your assets. You need to work as a team, you need players to do the protecting/fighting whilst others do the mining/hauling. If you are a cohesive unit and have enough players to carry this out, this corp will soon get fed up of war dec'ing you!
MACCHES	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Akita T Meanwhile... if you don't like wardecs, don't form a player corp, and that's it. Fair enough. I agree that all players should take into account the chance of being wardec'd if they join a player Corp. I think the argument has more to do with the prolific number of wardecs on small or new Corps only, which is why this post is in New Player posts. However, I do not agree with the notion that new players should stay in NPC Corps until they're ready to go to war. I found no benefit whatsoever to being in an NPC corp. It was boring and unfocused, revolved almost exclusively around solo play, and didn't teach me anything! I do believe you gain alot more joining a player Corp and receiving first-hand guidance and personal experience of other players. Instead of pposting about the pains of being jumped by wardec'rs, can we try and steer this topic towards methods and practises that we can all implement to give even new-Corpers a better chance of survival? 1. If you are wardec'd, or fear wardec from another Corp. Manually set that Corp standing to -10, this will make their ships stick out like sore thumbs, giving you a better chance to react. 2. If your Corp members are missioning/mining in the same system Always Fleet up. Worst comes to worst, scream Murder! and at least your Corpmates can rightclick you and mass warp to your location, even just to watch you explode, might be enough to deter a single miner-hunter. --------------------------- Insert Pirate-themed remark
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:30:00 - [59] I made a long reply but the forums don't want me to post it, so i'll just say, either stay in the noob corp or accept that you an not rely on using high end resourcing ships like ravens and hulks until you built your first POS in low sec and know how to keep your ops fully secured. Until then accept that you may be forced to switch to frigates at will and learn how to use those well when under fire. A well coordinated frigate swarm is very hard to beat and many pure bully corps will lose interest when faced with these. If they don't give up directly, their agility is enough to let you evade them indefinetely.
Kami Nodachi Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:39:00 - [60] Originally by: RustyWater Edited by: RustyWater on 07/04/2008 11:17:22 Originally by: Kami Nodachi Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Kami Nodachi I am saying the mechanic is broken. It seams to work for them. And is what they are doing working for everyone else? Is it making the game better? I tell you what is not making the game better, people in NPC corps complaining about a war dec. And I am the person in this thread that people call a n00b... its an alt, dummy. -Minna miteite kure-



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