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Kiki Arnolds Allied Caprican Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:05:00 - [1] I'm sure its been brought up before, but no one has made a thread recently on them so here goes: Large E-Neuts are seriously overpowered when used on small ships. With every other weapon system there is a tradeoff between larger modules and a weakness when used on small ships. E-Neuts stand alone as being equally effective against small, medium and large ships. My proposal: Base E-Nuet effectiveness on sig radius, module effectiveness should equal (target sig res/weap res) x Neut Strength if the target has a sig res smaller than the E-neut. Large E-Nuet res - 300 Med E-Neut res - 100 Small E-Neut res - 25 Large E-Neut vs Interceptor without MWD -41.25 cap Med E-Neut vs Inteceptor without MWD - 49.5 Small E-Neut vs Interceptor without MWD -45 cap This would reduce the overpowered effect of the E-Neuts, without making them useless, and without effecting thier use against larger ships... Caveat - I'm a ceptor pilot and don't like loosing all my cap to one round of E-Neuting by a carrier/bs, clearly this would benefit me, but it seems like a fair proposal, and even -45cap/cycle will put a big hurt on an interceptor. (-250 if the MWD was on) ç¦
Alski Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:40:00 - [2] Well i'm a carrier pilot and i just love killing the cap of orbiting ceptors and dictors that stray too close so errr... cough Of course my main also flys dictors and ceptors a lot as well, so i get both sides of it and tbh aside from normal dictors needing a boost i'm happy with the current balance, its surprising how few BS's do actually fit large neuts so its something that rareley gets me killed and if it happens I can usually disengage and in the short amount of time it takes to do so, warp off. - far preferable to dieing at least, and by which time my job is probably done anywhere and there are other ships pounding the target. When you have a hostile dictor that keeps popping in and out of a POS shield bubble (droping interdiction spheres on you) that your carrier is hammering on and at the very best of times being outside long enough to just barely get a lock on it with your carrier, you'd appreciate that i like neuts as they are atm its not exactly the most common thing to put on a carrier anyway, most people go with a extra remote rep, smartie, or DCU. It would make a lot of sence, i grant you that, but since neuts atm are a great tool for takeing out nanoships such as vagas etc, i think they should be left as they are, a heavy neut is the only real tool most BS's have to deal with nanoHACs and such in a 1v1 fight, so i think they need to stay as they are for ballance. - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
z0de	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:50:00 - [3] Only if they nerf nanoships too. You cant be untouchable to everything. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Update my portrait!
MarleWH	Posted - 2008.04.08 02:25:00 - [4] Not everything should be absolutely equal, it ruins the game. I think it should be fine for a ship 1000x more expensive to at least scratch the smaller ship.
Kiki Arnolds Allied Caprican Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 04:07:00 - [5] Consider, under my scheme: Large E-Nuet vs Vagabond MWD off - ~25% Large E-Nuet vs Vagabond MWD on - 100% Large E-Nuet vs any cruiser MWD on - 100% That doesn't really adress the concern about the dictor and the POS shield, but against nanos with the MWD on, there will be no change, and even a ceptor with a MWD will be getting neuted at 50%... a max skilled ceptor pilot only has about 300 cap... loosing 250 to a nuet will be a big problem... Really this would only effect targets without MWDs on... ç¦
Seiji Hannah	Posted - 2008.04.08 04:59:00 - [6] This is most likely not an original idea - however an evolution to neuts, webs etc. realy needs to happen and a signature dependance on their efficiency is the best possible way to improve them. Addittionaly - target painters in combination with energy neuts would offline any frigate. /signed
BlondieBC	Posted - 2008.04.08 05:00:00 - [7] Originally by: z0de Only if they nerf nanoships too. You cant be untouchable to everything. I second this one. Large neuts are critical to catching nanoships by turning off the microwarp drive. A fast ship still has a good chance to escape, after losing cap.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 06:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Kiki Arnolds Consider, under my scheme: Large E-Nuet vs Vagabond MWD off - ~25% Large E-Nuet vs Vagabond MWD on - 100% Large E-Nuet vs any cruiser MWD on - 100% That doesn't really adress the concern about the dictor and the POS shield, but against nanos with the MWD on, there will be no change, and even a ceptor with a MWD will be getting neuted at 50%... a max skilled ceptor pilot only has about 300 cap... loosing 250 to a nuet will be a big problem... Really this would only effect targets without MWDs on... Neuts are only dangerous to fast ships if they are sitting still with their MWD off. Otherwise it has nearly no effect. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Karanth Eve's Brothers of Destiny Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:58:00 - [9] Whee, Nos Nerf Idea #74536246 has resurfaced. Buddy of mine owes me 10mil. "Current Earth-Destruction Status"
Kiki Arnolds Allied Caprican Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Karanth Whee, Nos Nerf Idea #74536246 has resurfaced. Buddy of mine owes me 10mil. Uhm... I don't see where I mentioned a Nos Nerf... this is specifically targeted at E-Nuets... I'm a bit rusty on the mechanic, but I thought they already nerfed Nos so that they wont drain a target below your own cap level... Though if you'll give me a cut, a nerf nos thread could be arranged ç¦
grgjegb gergerg School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:51:00 - [11] Hmm, this is a good point, neuts don't follow the usual pattern of "bigger guns less effective against smaller ships."
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:43:00 - [12] Yeah let's nerf the only weapon useful against the nano-trend. Not going to happen
Cailais VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:23:00 - [13] E-neuts are not overpowered. There's no need to change them at all. C. New Scanner Idea!
Lance Fighter	Posted - 2008.04.09 05:06:00 - [14] Originally by: "Conrad Rock" Yeah let's nerf the only weapon useful against the nano-trend. Not going to happen Wink Err.r Maybe you missed on a MWD where it says +500% signature radius? A cruiser with a MWD one has a signature radius of well over 400 meters, meaning a medium neut would be quite effective on it. A ceptor has a radius of 100m or so, depending on skills and MWD. So you really arent boosting nano ships, just boosting ceptors vs large ships. Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that doesnot have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance towards people with sigs.
Karanth	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Kiki Arnolds Originally by: Karanth Whee, Nos Nerf Idea #74536246 has resurfaced. Buddy of mine owes me 10mil. Uhm... I don't see where I mentioned a Nos Nerf... this is specifically targeted at E-Nuets... I'm a bit rusty on the mechanic, but I thought they already nerfed Nos so that they wont drain a target below your own cap level... Though if you'll give me a cut, a nerf nos thread could be arranged Before Nos was nerfed, this idea was one that was tossed about, among a million others. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. "Current Earth-Destruction Status"
Conrad Rock Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.09 14:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: "Conrad Rock" Yeah let's nerf the only weapon useful against the nano-trend. Not going to happen Wink Err.r Maybe you missed on a MWD where it says +500% signature radius? A cruiser with a MWD one has a signature radius of well over 400 meters, meaning a medium neut would be quite effective on it. A ceptor has a radius of 100m or so, depending on skills and MWD. So you really arent boosting nano ships, just boosting ceptors vs large ships. Oh right, so an 1mn afterburner II interceptor should be able to solo a battleship? It works fine. The fitting on energy neuts are high and the activation cost as well. Setups are gimped by having them.
Reggie Stoneloader Teikoku Trade Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:47:00 - [17] I don't really see the problem. Energy neutralizers can be used to great effect, but so can blasters. I don't see neuts being used as a must-have module on PvP setups the way nos and ECM used to be (and MWD is now). So really, the fact that you can get your butt kicked by a guy who equips neuts and uses them well is a good thing. Crusades: Security Status
grgjegb gergerg Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:10:00 - [18] Edited by: grgjegb gergerg on 09/04/2008 16:11:04 Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: "Conrad Rock" Yeah let's nerf the only weapon useful against the nano-trend. Not going to happen Wink Err.r Maybe you missed on a MWD where it says +500% signature radius? A cruiser with a MWD one has a signature radius of well over 400 meters, meaning a medium neut would be quite effective on it. A ceptor has a radius of 100m or so, depending on skills and MWD. So you really arent boosting nano ships, just boosting ceptors vs large ships. Oh right, so an 1mn afterburner II interceptor should be able to solo a battleship? It works fine. The fitting on energy neuts are high and the activation cost as well. Setups are gimped by having them. If the battleships are forced to (or ABLE to) rely on ONE weapon to defend themselves from an interceptor, maybe something IS wrong. What makes battleships special enough to be able to kill all other classes of ships? (In general) Frigs lose to cruisers, cruisers lose to battlecruisers, battlecruisers lose to battleships, battleships... can kill anything? Shouldn't everything have a weak spot? You can fit a smartbomb if a small close ship bothers you so much. But... wait, that decreases your long range effectiveness, like a tradeoff...
Jill Antaris	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:21:00 - [19] Well in the Past Nos was the best Weapon against smaller Targets. Today Heavy Neuts are the only Thing BS have left to counter a Nano Ship. And by counter it is more like scaring them away and warp out not to kill them since they slip out of Scram Range most of the times. Since Heavy Neuts are this nber, everyone using a BS this days. Oh wait they don¦t, everyone using a smaller, faster Ship this days... ---------------------- Nerf Lasers! Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit. Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage. O wait... they allready did... =(
Jill Antaris	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:28:00 - [20] Originally by: grgjegb gergerg Edited by: grgjegb gergerg on 09/04/2008 16:11:04 Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: "Conrad Rock" Yeah let's nerf the only weapon useful against the nano-trend. Not going to happen Wink Err.r Maybe you missed on a MWD where it says +500% signature radius? A cruiser with a MWD one has a signature radius of well over 400 meters, meaning a medium neut would be quite effective on it. A ceptor has a radius of 100m or so, depending on skills and MWD. So you really arent boosting nano ships, just boosting ceptors vs large ships. Oh right, so an 1mn afterburner II interceptor should be able to solo a battleship? It works fine. The fitting on energy neuts are high and the activation cost as well. Setups are gimped by having them. If the battleships are forced to (or ABLE to) rely on ONE weapon to defend themselves from an interceptor, maybe something IS wrong. What makes battleships special enough to be able to kill all other classes of ships? (In general) Frigs lose to cruisers, cruisers lose to battlecruisers, battlecruisers lose to battleships, battleships... can kill anything? Shouldn't everything have a weak spot? You can fit a smartbomb if a small close ship bothers you so much. But... wait, that decreases your long range effectiveness, like a tradeoff... Well the ISk invested, the Range, the Damage, the insaine training Time. Battleships are allready very limited in fighting smaller things, moving slowly, have long lock times etc. Not every BS is fitted for Long Range and Smartbombs are next to useless because no small and fast ship will come close to you this days. There is something out there called nano that avoids this 12km Range like the devil the holy water. ---------------------- Nerf Lasers! Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit. Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage. O wait... they allready did... =(
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:33:00 - [21] Originally by: grgjegb gergerg If the battleships are forced to (or ABLE to) rely on ONE weapon to defend themselves from an interceptor, maybe something IS wrong. What makes battleships special enough to be able to kill all other classes of ships? (In general) Frigs lose to cruisers, cruisers lose to battlecruisers, battlecruisers lose to battleships, battleships... can kill anything? Shouldn't everything have a weak spot? You can fit a smartbomb if a small close ship bothers you so much. But... wait, that decreases your long range effectiveness, like a tradeoff... If he's in smartbomb range, he's in web range. Once he's webbed, he's dead (or will be when the drones catch up). Besides, the ceptors with a range bonus can outrange Unstable Neuts (bit harder with the faction/officer models, but a DB Disruptor or the right gang link will fix that problem right up for you), so it's hardly perfect defense. Anyway, a BS fitting a Heavy Neut is fitting to counter (among other things) nanoships and smaller ships. He could fit a remote rep instead, as part of a spider tank gang fitting to deal with high incoming DPS. He could fit another gun or launcher on some ships, fitting to do more DPS to ships of similar class. And besides, 2000 PG (and 375-500 activation cost) is not peanuts on any ship, they require sacrifices to fit and use. What eats BS? Other BS. Ewar. HACs. CS. Carriers. Recons. Well-fitted BCs. Gangs. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:18:00 - [22] I don't think this is a good idea. Keep in mind that accounting for signature resolution in cap warfare was carefully considered for the nos nerf. The reason was that battleships could easily disable interceptors (or any frig, cruiser, really) with a couple of heavy nos while simultaneously gaining capacitor. The compromise chosen was that the offensive Nos should only lower the cap to the attacker's level, as you know. Energy neutralizers already have compromise: using them nukes your own cap. Battleships can use this effectively to cap out frigs and keep them from dominating the field with their superior mobility. If they could not, they would be largely defenseless against well-piloted interceptors excluding the use of fast drones and Ewar. Do you really think a single < 10m isk ship should be able to doom a >200m isk ship with such great odds? Additionally, ceptors can counter neuts with injectors or nos (at the risk of webbing) if they so choose.
Conrad Rock Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.10 02:19:00 - [23] grgjegb gergerg's response is a complete joke that doesn't take into account actual pvp trends, don't bother replying to it.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Jill Antaris Well in the Past Nos was the best Weapon against smaller Targets. Today Heavy Neuts are the only Thing BS have left to counter a Nano Ship. And by counter it is more like scaring them away and warp out not to kill them since they slip out of Scram Range most of the times. Since Heavy Neuts are this nber, everyone using a BS this days. Oh wait they don¦t, everyone using a smaller, faster Ship this days... Battle ships are the #1 and #5 most flown ships in Player Corps with the current way missiles work heavy neuts = push button warp out in regards to frigate sized ships (especially turret ceptors)
Conrad Rock Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.10 13:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Jill Antaris Well in the Past Nos was the best Weapon against smaller Targets. Today Heavy Neuts are the only Thing BS have left to counter a Nano Ship. And by counter it is more like scaring them away and warp out not to kill them since they slip out of Scram Range most of the times. Since Heavy Neuts are this nber, everyone using a BS this days. Oh wait they don¦t, everyone using a smaller, faster Ship this days... Battle ships are the #1 and #5 most flown ships in Player Corps with the current way missiles work heavy neuts = push button warp out in regards to frigate sized ships (especially turret ceptors) I don't know why people bother do make such dishonest arguments, they must think the devs stupid or are themselves. No, an interceptor will never be able to tackle everything without fear of consequence. Porting a heavy neut is a serious gimp to a setup and that's the trade off. Only the dominix can get away with it asit doesn't need to use turrets, and then you should just avoid them like many ships in eve have to avoid certain other ships.
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2008.04.10 13:31:00 - [26] Neuts can be nerfed once they don't also reduce the user's cap. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Juggernauts
Daqinson The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.10 13:48:00 - [27] The OP needs to delete this thread before she gives the Dev's something else to destroy that I use... I hate you for this OP :( -'Neut'Apoc FTW
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.04.11 16:16:00 - [28] The OP overlooks the fact that neuts damage the capacitor of the wielding ship equally. Furthermore, there is already a counter to neuts: cap booster charges. If you get neuted you should have a cap injector, in which case just slam a few in to get back to fighting strength. Its sad that the counter to MWD is actually cap neutralization, but whats probably worse is thats the ONLY counter. Dont pick a fight with something larger than you if you arent willing to deal with the larger things it can bring to bear. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:19:00 - [29] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Jill Antaris Well in the Past Nos was the best Weapon against smaller Targets. Today Heavy Neuts are the only Thing BS have left to counter a Nano Ship. And by counter it is more like scaring them away and warp out not to kill them since they slip out of Scram Range most of the times. Since Heavy Neuts are this nber, everyone using a BS this days. Oh wait they don¦t, everyone using a smaller, faster Ship this days... Battle ships are the #1 and #5 most flown ships in Player Corps with the current way missiles work heavy neuts = push button warp out in regards to frigate sized ships (especially turret ceptors) Of course you completely ignore the fact that that's ALL ships, not all PvP ships. Those Raven hordes are in all likelihood mostly PVE Ravens, as are many of the Dominixes (Drones > Guns for missions, especially at low SP). -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth

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