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Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:11:00 - [1] Lots of personal agendas being thrown around, here's how I see it: - there is NO difference between RMT and GTC's, isk goes from one person to another and somehow it is paid for with RL cash. - in itself RMT isn't worse and doesn't make for more inflation at all, compared to GTC's; people buy what they can/will buy, regardless if it would be RMT or GTC. Also, the whole "but farming goes much faster!!!111oneeleven" doesn't fly, it still has to be mined/made, apart from that a lot of actual players farm like there's no tomorrow. No difference. - both GTC's as RMT inject isk into the game, again no difference. Both put in effort, both sell their ore/whatever for isk. Isk is being made out of nothing since it's not a finite comodity (not really). All that's needed is labour which in both cases is cheap and in the case of the "real" players actually free, so that means it's even MORE out of whack. However; - RMT IS a lot more dangerous due to the phishing/CC theft and whatnot So the holier than though people going "but GTC's are less bad for the economy blahblah" can just shut it, cause it's not true. People will buy isk, if that happens through GTC or RMT makes no difference as such. I detect some self interest there, probably because said players make use of GTC's. Apart from that I don't do the fanboi thing going "omg but CCP gets teh money if it's GTC". I don't give a rat's ass, as it stands they are no better than the Korean MMO's with itemshops. Spin it how you want, but it's no different. Would I use RMT? No, never. Mostly because it's not secure in any way, apart from that I don't buy/sell my isk. I make it ingame, I use it ingame. But don't somehow spin it as if GTC's are any better.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:38:00 - [2] How does that change the GTC/RMT thing? it doesn't. There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:45:00 - [3] Why, because they're somehow superhuman, or have all kinds of exploits? They put in more time per account, that is all. Overall there's more "normal" players farming/making cash than "chinese" farmers, so that still doesn't fly.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:54:00 - [4] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 18:54:53 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. Farmers have the inflationary impact 8-10 times that of an ordinary player. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. That's funny, I see real players with 5 accounts mine 20 hours a day, or run missions afk 23/7 or whatever. For the farmers to better that by 10 times is very impressive, can you explain how they do it? If there wouldn't be RMT's, there would be more demand for GTC sales and it would all balance out again. It makes no difference apart for the people who sell their made isk for GTC's, and CCP ofcourse. Which of the two do you belong to?
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:07:00 - [5] nice nitpicking, nice numbers. Yet it doesn't make CCP's system any better.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:17:00 - [6] Ok, again. The isk DEMAND is there, regardless of how it's done, either via RMT or GTC. removing or lesseing one way of selling that isk to the buyers does not change the overal market for isk. Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? No, I'm saying that both real players as farmers mine, run missions and do any other forms of making isk, wether it's a faucet or not. In the end it all comes down to meeting the demand for isk, which won't change wether it's met via RMT, GTC or any combination. If RMT is taken out, the demand will be balanced by having more GTC sales.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:33:00 - [8] it doesn't matter, the real problem is the DEMAND, not the supply. As long as the demand is there there will be people trying to fill that demand, trough any means available. If you remove the farmers then "real" players will just start to farm more because all of a sudden it becomes more profitable to do so, simply because the deman doesn't change. You're nitpicking while avoiding the actual issue.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:36:00 - [9] no, you fail to see the actual problem. The problem is buying isk through RL cash. It doesn't matter if it's done "legally" or not.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:42:00 - [10] Since the demand doesn't change (at least not due to the RMT/GTC balance) people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. The demand is there, therefore it people will try and meet that demand. Your geographic location or you means of making the trade does not change that.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:47:00 - [11] Just so you know, I do not agree with Ethen Bejorn's views.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Don't let any PR fool you.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:58:00 - [13] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:00:18 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tzar'rim [...] people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. Wait a second, I'm still trying to recover from an uncontrollable burst of laughter I just had. You're telling me people would be farming MORE ISK in order to pay for the EXTRA accounts they would create so that they could PAY FOR THEIR ACCOUNTS in the first place ? Yes, it now makes perfect sense ! If I can't pay for my account, I will create an alt account to make more ISK so I can pay for my account ! But wait, I need more cash to pay for the second account too ! So, the obvious answer is... make a THIRD account ! [...] Ooops, sorry, it's not 1 mil subscriptions you see, it's just me and my horde of alts trying to make ISK to pay for the GTCs needed for my army of alts. You DO know that an extra account has paid for itself after a few hours of mining, right?
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Even if CCP would benefit from selling ISK directly they wouldn't because, as Akita T said, it would be injecting ISK directly into the economy much faster than normal players could, causing rampant inflation. That's why farming is bad. No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest. Keeping EVE's economy healthy would be in CCP's best interests, because otherwise most players would leave EVE. Selling ISK directly might benefit them in the short term but if EVE's economy fails, EVE will fail. Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales. My primary point was that RMT is bad for EVE economically and that the GTC trade is infinitely better in that respect. I didn't mean to suggest that CCP is doing so purely for our benefit (though fighting RMTs benefits us as well) or that that I like the idea of people buying ISK for real money. I'm sorry, it is not better. It's only better for CCP. GTC's are not at all different from RMT's. There's no difference for the ingame economy, they are the SAME thing. Outside the game CCP benefits more from GTC's than from RMT's.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:17:18 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:11:23 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T And that's also exactly why WE want GTC sales as well. I'd rather have ISK have a high value, so those that get blasted by me feel the pain. And I'd rather have a REAL player play the game longer rather than filling some sleazebag's pockets. That's a personal reason, not an economic one. Are you denying the fact RMTers tend to destroy game economies ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades don't tend to do that ? Are you denying the fact you just can't stop RMT completely ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades keeps RMT transactions in check to a degree ? I guess you don't deny any of that So, you see... it makes perfect economic sense too. Now you're just rambling. The thing is that somehow people tend to put some moralistic value difference between RMT's and GTC's. Which is just wrong. Wether that's due to fanboyism or not is up for discussion but at the basis there's no difference between the two.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:21:00 - [18] grrr isk demand = 100% lets say that this demand is met by rmft for 50% and GTC for 50% (don't know the numbers, they don't matter anyway). If you lower the RMT transactions that must mean that (after a while) the GTC transactions will simply increase to again meet the 100% demand. WHO sells the isk or WHERE they are from, or by WHICH means does not change anything; people farm to make isk, to sell it for cash. In the case of GTC's they sell it for cash indirectly. No difference.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:25:00 - [19] Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here?
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? Looking at the stupid amount of miners/ratters and mission runners I see whenever I am/get online I'd say that there's a percentage that does it, yes. Apart from that, it doesn't matter. if the isk/player goes down there will simply be more players to fulfill the demand, which means (yet again) more subscriptions.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:45:00 - [21] Why do you have a problem with that idea? There's tons of people out there who mine ore, buy a BPO, then research it to stupidly high ME's, then produce the items and sell them below mineral cost. IE, everyone puts in time and effort into the game. If people get 5 accounts because it's economically viable they will do so, if only to use those alts/accounts for other seasons apart from making cash. You're just argueing for the sake of argueing :P Not that I have a problem wit hthat ofcourse, since I'm doing the same.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:49:16 So if more people do economically unfeasable stuff to bring everybody else cheap goods, while not damaging the economy in any way (well, other than having a few angry manufacturers and a lot of happy traders/recyclers, that is), why should anybody be bothered they don't actually play real money to play the game ? Because they certainly aren't MAKING any real-life money with the secure GTC trade rules in place... huh?
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:54:00 - [23] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:01 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus is for themselves.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:42 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus Isk is for themselves. Oooooh! I confised cash for ISK with ISK for cash, sorry about that. Now...where were we again? I've completely lost my train of thought. Ah, I remember now! Me: Rabble! You: Rabble rabble! Me: Rabble rabble rabble! You: Rabble rabble rabble...rabble Me: Rabble? RABBLE OMG RABBLE! I think we should just agree to disagree before my organs start exploding. <3
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:00:00 - [25] EULA, sticky on the buyer/seller forums, login info, help channel MOTD, asking around, asking a GM. Anyone claiming ignorance did not put in a single bit of effort to learn about the fact that RMT are prohibited. Burn them at the stake.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:25:00 - [26] All they need to do is add a simple, to the point, big font text to the rookie channel MOTD stating that buying isk for cash is a nono. Also, make it so it's at the bottom of the MOTD so no one can miss it. Anyone claiming they didn't know is a big fat liar.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:37:00 - [27] No, just as in actual law, pleading ignorance does not let you off the hook. There are already a lot of ways to find out that RMT gets you in trouble. I stated them earlier and (I'm guessing/hoping) that the vast majority knows these. If they don't it's their fault for not putting in effort. It would just be VERY useful if CCP would add that little fact to the rookie MOTD in a way that it can't be overlooked.
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.04.09 13:10:00 - [28] Don't start now, it'll make me angry. /gets all green

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