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The Logoff Problem, straight up G.I. perspective

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memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:39:00 - [1] Shout out to mah GI homies. So we wuz sittin there chillin like gangstas on the gate campin in a war target that we **in hate We probed his * ass out and had him pinned Load the gats up get his rich skinned Gate fires up and these minnies get ready Gotta lock em down hope the lag stays steady We all pumped up cuz this is a cnr Hope he drops good cuz damn I flew far Oh there he is! pack it up lets roll pay attention to what Im sayin this aint no troll Got points on him now and his ship looks webbed Just a few more torps and dat ass be dead aww hell what just happened his ship dissapeared got robbed like hell even though he logged off here Whats the deal ccp I know you need money but not fixin like this aint really funny So if homies can log off a gate while cloaked why our right to kill gotta be revoked? All I'm really sayin is this gotta be fixed We bein real here aint tryin to be **s
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:43:00 - [2] Edited by: Winterblink on 08/04/2008 18:45:12 wtf warp drive active \| nature vraie
Spaztick Canadian Assault Network	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:44:00 - [3] Overdone.
Xetu Noi DKP	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:52:00 - [4] Last week I was in (on another character) a 12 man fleet of non-nano'd ships. We tracked down and trapped an enemy fleet of 7 nano'd ships and then trapped them in a system with only 2 gates by having 6 of our guys on each gate. Even though they outnumbered each seperate gate defender group, and even though they had 5 friends in the next system on the connecting gate ready to come in and help at a moments notice, what did they do? 6 of them logged off, one stayed in the system cloaked. After 15 minutes of waiting we threw our hands up in disgust and left. 2 minutes later the 6 enemy logged back on and went on their merry way. Can we just figure out a way to give these log off guys free honor and marks so they can buy their epic pvp gear without wasting everyone else's time? oh wait......
Cornwaffles C0RNWAFFE	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:56:00 - [5] The problem is that basically anyone that jumps through a gate into a camp, can basically just log off. Regardless of weather or not they are tackled/getting attacked the ship will dissapear after 1 minute. I don't understand why this is possible, it almost makes pvp impossible without the consent of the other players. Utterly ********.
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:01:00 - [6] The issue certainly separates the boys from the men.... I wish CCP would rotate the knob back up to hard on this one. G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Suitonia interimo	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:06:00 - [7] Memph Yeah this thread is basically about coming through the gate, and logging off under gatecloak. In my opinion if you get tackled while performing the emergency warp then it should activate the standard 15 minute pvp timer. Since you would have got caught most likely anyway, had you not have had a accidental disconnect. The majority of ships that could have prehaps survived a gatecamp by manuvering, i.e. nanoships. Usually die to disconnects anyway because their ships don't have much EHP. And can't survive the 1-minute you have to kill the guy who logged off. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Xetu Noi DKP	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:13:00 - [8] To me the issues of logging off at a gate camp to escape pvp and choosing to log off somewhere other than a gate when engaged in pvp but not being flagged with the 15 minute timer are one and the same: the ability to meta game your way out of pvp at will using log off feature. The fact that CCP hasn't fixed this glaring and easy to fix problem after all these years says as much about CCP's current state of paralysis as it does about the pathetic people who pretend they are playing a pvp MMO.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:20:00 - [9] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 08/04/2008 19:20:36 Pack some recon probes, G. Also since when has logoff without aggression happened after only one minute? I thought it was two. Also since when has logoffski saved you from being bubbled or scrammed? Back when I first started playing I tried the logoffski thing while I was getting scrammed, and I logged back in to find myself dead. The guy was in an assault ship, so he couldn't have had probes. I mean obviously game mechanics change, but if that's the case here can someone confirm it?
Iron Ball School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:24:00 - [10] Edited by: Iron Ball on 08/04/2008 19:25:48 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 08/04/2008 19:20:36 Pack some recon probes, G. Also since when has logoff without aggression happened after only one minute? I thought it was two. Also since when has logoffski saved you from being bubbled or scrammed? Back when I first started playing I tried the logoffski thing while I was getting scrammed, and I logged back in to find myself dead. The guy was in an assault ship, so he couldn't have had probes. I mean obviously game mechanics change, but if that's the case here can someone confirm it? How are probes going to help? The guy said he was scrambled, webbed, he was going nowhere. Then his ship vanished because he had logged off before pvp was triggered on him.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:39:00 - [11] Edited by: Eventy One on 08/04/2008 19:40:36 You know ... I really don't see how this is any less fair than sitting on a choke point with a gang, ganking people as they fly in (often out-numbering them). Are gate camping ****ers somehow more sporting than those who chicken out of PvP engagements by logging off? More noble perhaps? It seems to me that the balance issues are roughly equal. Certainly not everyone is logging off to avoid PvP, as there are still people getting victimized. What are you suggesting then? CCP to nerf log offs? I'm not going to suggest this post is a poor attempt at hiding a whine with a rhyme, but I'm really not seeing either the case or the posed solution.
Xetu Noi DKP	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Eventy One Edited by: Eventy One on 08/04/2008 19:40:36 You know ... I really don't see how this is any less fair than sitting on a choke point with a gang, ganking people as they fly in (often out-numbering them). Are gate camping ****ers somehow more sporting than those who chicken out of PvP engagements by logging off? More noble perhaps? It seems to me that the balance issues are roughly equal. Certainly not everyone is logging off to avoid PvP, as there are still people getting victimized. What are you suggesting then? CCP to nerf log offs? I'm not going to suggest this post is a poor attempt at hiding a whine with a rhyme, but I'm really not seeing either the case or the posed solution. That gate camping choke points and farming defenseless shuttles/haulers/noobs coming through it is lame, boring, and a a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher the 0 doesnt negate the fact that being able to meta game your way out of pvp combat at will is equally lame, boring, and a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher than 0. The answer isnt if two things are broken dont fix them because they vaguely balance each other out in some fashion. The answer is to fix them both.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Xetu Noi That gate camping choke points and farming defenseless shuttles/haulers/noobs coming through it is lame, boring, and a a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher the 0 doesnt negate the fact that being able to meta game your way out of pvp combat at will is equally lame, boring, and a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher than 0. Well in our case they are 95% of the time war targets that can opt out PvP by joining a NPC corp... -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:56:00 - [14] Edited by: Winterblink on 08/04/2008 19:56:33 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Well in our case they are 95% of the time war targets that can opt out PvP by joining a NPC corp... Isn't doing that petitionable? I seem to remember something about that. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, no doubt. :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Faife Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 08/04/2008 19:56:33] Isn't doing that petitionable? I seem to remember something about that. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, no doubt. :) iirc alliance hopping is petitionable, corp hopping is fine.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 08/04/2008 19:56:33] Isn't doing that petitionable? I seem to remember something about that. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, no doubt. :) iirc alliance hopping is petitionable, corp hopping is fine. Thaaaaaaat was it, thanks. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Spaztick Canadian Assault Network	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Xetu Noi Last week I was in (on another character) a 12 man fleet of non-nano'd ships. We tracked down and trapped an enemy fleet of 7 nano'd ships and then trapped them in a system with only 2 gates by having 6 of our guys on each gate. Even though they outnumbered each seperate gate defender group, and even though they had 5 friends in the next system on the connecting gate ready to come in and help at a moments notice, what did they do? 6 of them logged off, one stayed in the system cloaked. After 15 minutes of waiting we threw our hands up in disgust and left. 2 minutes later the 6 enemy logged back on and went on their merry way. Can we just figure out a way to give these log off guys free honor and marks so they can buy their epic pvp gear without wasting everyone else's time? oh wait...... As a former high warlord this has me tickled.
Xetu Noi DKP	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Xetu Noi That gate camping choke points and farming defenseless shuttles/haulers/noobs coming through it is lame, boring, and a a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher the 0 doesnt negate the fact that being able to meta game your way out of pvp combat at will is equally lame, boring, and a waste of time for anyone seeking pvp with a risk factor higher than 0. Well in our case they are 95% of the time war targets that can opt out PvP by joining a NPC corp... If your gate camping and 95% of the people u kill are war targets then gratz. I'm talking about a different set of gate campers.
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:14:00 - [19] There is no honor in logoffski... neither there is in sitting by a gate with a bunch of bubbles, so stfu or give me your stuff. --- CCP: Galaxy is too crowded, plz add 10X more systems
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:15:00 - [20] Every post in this thread is horrible. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:18:00 - [21] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Every post in this thread is horrible. Do you realize what you've just done? :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Xetu Noi DKP	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: An Anarchyyt Every post in this thread is horrible. Do you realize what you've just done? :) +1 to his post count?
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:50:00 - [23] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Every post in this thread is horrible. Hey I know the solution to that, lets try and troll the eve-o forum community with the same one liners over and over again. All aboard the failtrain, last stop catchphrase central.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Iron Ball Edited by: Iron Ball on 08/04/2008 19:25:48 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 08/04/2008 19:20:36 Pack some recon probes, G. Also since when has logoff without aggression happened after only one minute? I thought it was two. Also since when has logoffski saved you from being bubbled or scrammed? Back when I first started playing I tried the logoffski thing while I was getting scrammed, and I logged back in to find myself dead. The guy was in an assault ship, so he couldn't have had probes. I mean obviously game mechanics change, but if that's the case here can someone confirm it? How are probes going to help? The guy said he was scrambled, webbed, he was going nowhere. Then his ship vanished because he had logged off before pvp was triggered on him. I must have misunderstood the original post. When they said he disappeared I interpreted it to mean he entered the million km warp-off that everyone does when logging off outside of a station, in which case probes would have been able to find him and allow the gang to kill him despite the fact that he logged off.
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:59:00 - [25] I was there when this happened. Its a highsec war.. we spent over an hour following this guy around. He made a mistake and didnt scout. We had him by the balls.. But 1 minute into shooting his CNR he disappeared. The response to my petition was more or less to Adapt. I was flying a neut battleship instead of a dps one.. Thats why the CNR didnt pop. The only way to kill a battleship that does this is to have a high dps battleship.. I have one.. so I will adapt. Some people dont have that option though. I'm not a programmer but it dosent seem like it would take a lot of work to simply have an aggression counter start after the person logs off(when he is engaged). My 2 cents
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.09 03:43:00 - [26] Originally by: memphistopheles Shout out to mah GI homies. So we wuz sittin there chillin like gangstas on the gate campin in a war target that we **in hate We probed his * ass out and had him pinned Load the gats up get his rich skinned Gate fires up and these minnies get ready Gotta lock em down hope the lag stays steady We all pumped up cuz this is a cnr Hope he drops good cuz damn I flew far Oh there he is! pack it up lets roll pay attention to what Im sayin this aint no troll Got points on him now and his ship looks webbed Just a few more torps and dat ass be dead aww hell what just happened his ship dissapeared got robbed like hell even though he logged off here Whats the deal ccp I know you need money but not fixin like this aint really funny So if homies can log off a gate while cloaked why our right to kill gotta be revoked? All I'm really sayin is this gotta be fixed We bein real here aint tryin to be **s this is why there are no popular asian rappers in america
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.09 03:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: memphistopheles Shout out to mah GI homies. So we wuz sittin there chillin like gangstas on the gate campin in a war target that we **in hate We probed his * ass out and had him pinned Load the gats up get his rich skinned Gate fires up and these minnies get ready Gotta lock em down hope the lag stays steady We all pumped up cuz this is a cnr Hope he drops good cuz damn I flew far Oh there he is! pack it up lets roll pay attention to what Im sayin this aint no troll Got points on him now and his ship looks webbed Just a few more torps and dat ass be dead aww hell what just happened his ship dissapeared got robbed like hell even though he logged off here Whats the deal ccp I know you need money but not fixin like this aint really funny So if homies can log off a gate while cloaked why our right to kill gotta be revoked? All I'm really sayin is this gotta be fixed We bein real here aint tryin to be **s this is why there are no popular asian rappers in america i gots da fever ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.09 03:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Erotic Irony i gots da fever Mr.Jin's only notable song went something like this Ya'll gon learn chinese Ya'll gon speak chinese (insert generic chorus of chick that wants to do the rapper in the music video) Ya'll gon learn chinese 100m ISK $5!!!!! (chorus)
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.09 03:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Erotic Irony i gots da fever Mr.Jin's only notable song went something like this Ya'll gon learn chinese Ya'll gon speak chinese (insert generic chorus of chick that wants to do the rapper in the music video) Ya'll gon learn chinese 100m ISK $5!!!!! (chorus) no rofl big enough to describe this, jesus hahaha ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.04.09 14:56:00 - [30] So the counter-argument for getting a 15-minute pvp timer while being engaged if performing an emergency warp is 'lol gatecampers are lame111!!11!". Which is completely a straw-man argument considering logoffski's can happen in safespots, missions and belts for example. Secondly, those big scary gatecamps that can be avoided by spending time looking at the map, scouting, intel channels. It's a complete undermine of 'non-consentual pvp' in my opinion. All it takes is to press 2 buttons on your keyboard to say "Sorry, I don't want to fight". It can be very frustrating when you spend 30 minutes tracking down, and probing your wartargets mission. Only to have him logoff as soon as he sees your arazu uncloak, or tackler in the mission. The only solution, and it's pretty **** poor is to bring more numbers so you can kill the target within 1 minute. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Xyn Rhais Minmatar Tessaract	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:04:00 - [31] There's a difference between loging off during PVP and logging off before you're attacked. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with the first, you have 15 min to kill him at your own leasure. The second is fine and CCP should never do anything about it. Just because you are in the system with someone else dosen't mean you have the right to dictate fights to him or put constraints on his play time.
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Xyn Rhais There's a difference between loging off during PVP and logging off before you're attacked. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with the first, you have 15 min to kill him at your own leasure. The second is fine and CCP should never do anything about it. Just because you are in the system with someone else dosen't mean you have the right to dictate fights to him or put constraints on his play time. There is a difference between logging off in a safe spot or mission and logging off while still cloaked after a gate jump. Theres already mechanisms in place to deal with the first, basically the ship dissapears and warps off to a random spot in space before the enemy even gets to the ship. This is pretty much equivalent to docking at a station and logging off. The second is complete and utter horse****. The ship jumps through, and the player says, "Oh hey! I've just landed on a gate camp, how silly of them to try and gank me by surprise. Why I'll just log off before my ship decloaks from jumping and be fine as long as they don't have the dps to pop me within 1 minute. Even though they just spent the last 30 minutes locating me, following my activities, and staging an ambush the game should do its best to allow people to dodge legitimate combat as much as possible." The concept is a lot similar to corporations joining alliances to dodge war decs. By all technicalities, logging off under gate cloak to avoid combat is an exploit. All that would be required to fix this is to have the ship dissapear only after it has warped a specific distance away from where the player logged off instead of having it dissapear after a specific timeperiod. This type of change would allow ships to be tackled and destroyed that exploit the log-off-under-gate-cloak game mechanic, yet allow people that log off in safe spots to remain safe. As for my original post, most of this forum is just filled with irrelevant material and I just tried to be a little creative.
Antheistaka	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:32:00 - [33] Originally by: memphistopheles Originally by: Xyn Rhais There's a difference between loging off during PVP and logging off before you're attacked. There's already mechanisms in place to deal with the first, you have 15 min to kill him at your own leasure. The second is fine and CCP should never do anything about it. Just because you are in the system with someone else dosen't mean you have the right to dictate fights to him or put constraints on his play time. There is a difference between logging off in a safe spot or mission and logging off while still cloaked after a gate jump. Theres already mechanisms in place to deal with the first, basically the ship dissapears and warps off to a random spot in space before the enemy even gets to the ship. This is pretty much equivalent to docking at a station and logging off. The second is complete and utter horse****. The ship jumps through, and the player says, "Oh hey! I've just landed on a gate camp, how silly of them to try and gank me by surprise. Why I'll just log off before my ship decloaks from jumping and be fine as long as they don't have the dps to pop me within 1 minute. Even though they just spent the last 30 minutes locating me, following my activities, and staging an ambush the game should do its best to allow people to dodge legitimate combat as much as possible." The concept is a lot similar to corporations joining alliances to dodge war decs. By all technicalities, logging off under gate cloak to avoid combat is an exploit. All that would be required to fix this is to have the ship dissapear only after it has warped a specific distance away from where the player logged off instead of having it dissapear after a specific timeperiod. This type of change would allow ships to be tackled and destroyed that exploit the log-off-under-gate-cloak game mechanic, yet allow people that log off in safe spots to remain safe. As for my original post, most of this forum is just filled with irrelevant material and I just tried to be a little creative. W3rd.
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.10 21:01:00 - [34] bump
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.10 21:10:00 - [35] Originally by: memphistopheles The second is complete and utter horse****. The ship jumps through, and the player says, "Oh hey! I've just landed on a gate camp, how silly of them to try and gank me by surprise. Why I'll just log off before my ship decloaks from jumping and be fine as long as they don't have the dps to pop me within 1 minute. Even though they just spent the last 30 minutes locating me, following my activities, and staging an ambush the game should do its best to allow people to dodge legitimate combat as much as possible." Indeed. However, how is the server supposed to know the difference between that and the person whos client imploded while loading that game camp? Not saying the tactic is valid, just that you're making the assumption that it's always done to spite the campers. Not always the case. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Drizit Amarr FREEDOM FIRST Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.10 21:34:00 - [36] Genuine PVPer before 15 minute timer (current game mechanics). ... Jumps through gate. Hey, loads of targets, I might lose my ship but if I select my targets right, I might just pin a couple of them first. WTF!!! ... Logs back in after CTD caused by massive lag. Warps back to gate and goes up for a bit of pew pew and takes out the tackling inty before going down and manages to warp pod to safety. ------------------------ Genuine PVPer after 15 minute timer (as requested by the OP) ... Jumps through gate. Hey, loads of targets, I might lose my ship but if I select my targets right, I might just pin a couple of them first. WTF!!! ... Logs back in after CTD caused by massive lag. Hey, no fair, CCP robbed me of my kill and now my pod is warping back for them to pop as well! ------------------ Now see how this would negatively affect the genuine lag caused CTD? The logoffski is a tactic used in many games utilising a game mechanism to protect those who have networking issues or low end PC's. If you change it to prevent abuse, it also makes the game unplayable for those with connection problems or lower spec computers that cannot handle the clientside lag. -- Freighters need a tank
nossler	Posted - 2008.04.11 00:24:00 - [37] So let me get this straight, dude is in a war and is flying a CNR around?? Am I the only one who got that?? Next time bring MORE GUNS!!!!
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.04.11 04:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Drizit Genuine PVPer before 15 minute timer (current game mechanics). ... Jumps through gate. Hey, loads of targets, I might lose my ship but if I select my targets right, I might just pin a couple of them first. WTF!!! ... Logs back in after CTD caused by massive lag. Warps back to gate and goes up for a bit of pew pew and takes out the tackling inty before going down and manages to warp pod to safety. ------------------------ Genuine PVPer after 15 minute timer (as requested by the OP) ... Jumps through gate. Hey, loads of targets, I might lose my ship but if I select my targets right, I might just pin a couple of them first. WTF!!! ... Logs back in after CTD caused by massive lag. Hey, no fair, CCP robbed me of my kill and now my pod is warping back for them to pop as well! ------------------ Now see how this would negatively affect the genuine lag caused CTD? The logoffski is a tactic used in many games utilising a game mechanism to protect those who have networking issues or low end PC's. If you change it to prevent abuse, it also makes the game unplayable for those with connection problems or lower spec computers that cannot handle the clientside lag. ...jumps through gate. hey loads of targets! omg i had better save my ship ctrl+q ...logs back on with armor or hull damage You cant solo a battleship in most ships if this happens.. Its roughly 50,000 hp on a CNR without mods. 1 minute And before you say "hai itz a multiplayer game", u dont have time to get people there in 1 minute.. Its obviously a problem and CCP have never related it to network issues. The networking issue is random disconnects.. not loading at gates.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr Adv Asteroid Mining and RD Sobaseki Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.11 04:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Erotic Irony i gots da fever Mr.Jin's only notable song went something like this Ya'll gon learn chinese Ya'll gon speak chinese (insert generic chorus of chick that wants to do the rapper in the music video) Ya'll gon learn chinese 100m ISK $5!!!!! (chorus) epic lolz
The Icefox Gallente Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.11 05:01:00 - [40] Originally by: memphistopheles ...crap... Because you can't spell crap with out r a p. Bored during down time? Try this.

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