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Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
147
   |
Posted - 2012.02.26 23:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Today I lost the "Bluebird" (Viator) while transporting liberated slaves out of low sec space. The reasons were my own mistakes in combination with the cowardice of a Capsuleer pilot named Drakir I.
As I left the station, I noted two other pilots in the system. Usually any trouble there has happened at the gates. This time, one was right outside the station. Looking back, I made a couple key mistakes.
1. I had two cargo hold expansions installed. I should have had one warp core stabilizer installed.
2. I should have taken a pod out to locate the ships first then taken the Viator.
The ship warp scrambled me and had me destroyed before I could escape or re-dock. 1219 people were on board and they survived the attack. I had no way of getting any vessel with any cargo hold nearby that would be safe to used to rescue the people. 23 people at a time in a rookie ship would take too long and the lives would be endangered.
The pilot who attacked me was still right there went I went back out to begin bringing in the survivors. I tried to contact him to ask him to help me bring them back to the station. Nothing doing. Some of the passengers were his own Sebiestor brothers and sisters. The Viator was unarmed when he attacked and I was on a humanitarian mission.
A big thanks to the Prowler pilot who eventually helped me. Oh yes, in the meantime, someone else comes along and salvages the ship but leaves the survivors, again no help. I know that some pilots kill for sport and I accept that as a risk of my work. I have lost many ships doing this kind of thing and they are replaceable.
However, I think it is cowardly to use a heavily armed vessel to destroy an unarmed non-hostile vessel engaged in humanitarian, non-violent work and to do so just for the sake of killing. Then to refuse to help the survivors? Even those of your own tribe? I wonder if Drakir felt a great adrenaline rush as he fired on a ship that could not fire back. Did it make him feel brave? Manly? Big and important?
Thankfully, all 1219 passengers made it alive. Sadly, my crew was lost. For that, I hold myself responsible.
I wonder what standards combat pilots hold to as to who they will fire on or not. What do you consider cowardly? Brave? |
Naraish Adarn
Fastfood for Fishies
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 23:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
they wouldn't be pirates if they were brave or intelligent. if they were under orders to attack unarmed ships their leader is as spinless as the pilot who fired the ships weapons.
the cowardly and weak prey on unarmed vessels as they are unable to perform better than an avarage brute. and they proved their lack of intellect by not veryfying what the cargo contained instead just firing blindly hoping for something to fall out.
so much for honor. |
Deceiver's Voice
Project Daedalid
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 06:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Edaine Numenor wrote:I wonder what standards combat pilots hold to as to who they will fire on or not. What do you consider cowardly? Brave?
It's not about cowardice or bravery. You were a target, nothing more, nothing less. No one else had an obligation to your passengers and crew. No one else had an obligation to help you. It does not make anyone your lesser, nor you their superior.
You could have taken measures to increase your chances of survival. You did not. It is your lesson to learn.
As cold as it sounds, it is the way things are. Take it as a lesson, and if you feel that others need to be made aware of what they can do in other situations such as this, I will smile and consider the universe better for it. Do not however make the mistake of seeing yourself as any better than anyone else simply for doing a kind deed. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 13:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Deceiver's Voice wrote: Do not however make the mistake of seeing yourself as any better than anyone else simply for doing a kind deed.
I have followed this wrong headed work of those who go about freeing slaves and I wholly disagree with it. However, the above statement of Deceiver's voice is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard on its own. To make no distinction between moral excellence and moral depravity is to doom civilized society. The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question and so will not pass judgment , but there are acts of cowardice and they are abundant in this universe. There are also acts of bravery, unselfishness, love and kindness, and they are less abundant.
Those who want to justify everything they do claim that all acts are morally neutral. That is wrong. If the pilot in question acted cowardly, then he is a coward. We need to make those distinctions of value if we are to have any society at all. I'm guessing that Deceiver's voice is probably recalling her own acts of cowardice and trying to justify them herself.
To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
241
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question
This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
68
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Theobar Cresthill wrote:The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question
This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.
Not to mention that one person's good deed is another's heinous crime. Perspective's a pain.
|
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Theobar Cresthill wrote:The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question
This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do.
Be a more careful reader, Ms. Farel. I am not inferring a specific from a generality. I am acknowledging that Kindness is better than Cowardice and admitting that I know neither of the pilots well enough to attribute either to them. My point was against the idea that these are morally neutral categories.
To Hold the Wayward Children for God and Empire |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
569
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Edaine Numenor wrote:
However, I think it is cowardly to use a heavily armed vessel to destroy an unarmed non-hostile vessel engaged in humanitarian, non-violent work and to do so just for the sake of killing. Then to refuse to help the survivors? Even those of your own tribe? I wonder if Drakir felt a great adrenaline rush as he fired on a ship that could not fire back. Did it make him feel brave? Manly? Big and important?
Perhaps he did not scan your ship first, and was not aware of NBH's mission, so he was expecting something of great monetary value to be hauled around in a Viator. Or perhaps he is indeed a spineless coward. Or both.
Though, as a point of technicality, I would argue that the caliber of the guns is irrelevant to his morality. You wouldn't be any less upset if he attacked you with a lightly armed vessel instead, would you?
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
241
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Also, Mr Numenor, as much as I despise piracy, I should advise you now not to do anything when undocking, except stopping your ship : this is indeed not considered as a real move by the station (unlike everything else) and you will remain protected until you can dock again (but not a second more).
Unless this has changed recently.
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Theobar Cresthill wrote:The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly. I cannot confirm the acts of the pilot in question
This is a logical fallacy, making a specific fact a generality. You do not know what other deeds both of them do. Be a more careful reader, Ms. Farel. I am not inferring a specific from a generality. I am acknowledging that Kindness is better than Cowardice and admitting that I know neither of the pilots well enough to attribute either to them. My point was against the idea that these are morally neutral categories.
Then you have my apologies, though you stated exactly that "The person who does a kind deed IS BETTER than the person who acts cowardly" : here the person is the subject and is qualified to be "better" than the other person, a conclusion based on two mere specific facts (kind deed vs coward deed). Said differently, it means that a kind deed makes someone better than the one that did a coward deed.
Thank you for the clarification, though, but your words were highly inaccurate and a source of misunderstanding for me. It never involved my carefulness here. |
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters
Villore Accords
25
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 18:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
You seem to be leaving out a plausible reason as to why you were attacked. Typically when one is at war, your enemy hides his logistical and ISK making endeavors behind a veil of neutrality. Therefore to insure the possibility of victory one must be resigned to attack and disrupt these neutral entities. Unfortunately in your case the attack truly was unwarranted, however to call the aggressor a coward is in fact not warranted either. We should all just be thankful that your passengers survived and were eventually rescued.
Is sexy time? |
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
147
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 19:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that.
You may all be right and my presumption that the pilot acted cowardly may be off. The other detail that I didn't elaborate on was the fact that I made several trips out with a rookie ship to retrieve the survivors while he was present and tried to request his help. His ship was large enough had we worked together, the passengers would have been quickly rescued. But, he refused though it was obvious what I was doing. I guess that was my reason for questioning. I have met many brave and noble warrior and have even been shot at by some of them. What ties them all together is the willingness after a battle to show mercy even to the enemy that has been defeated. I think that is one of the hallmarks of true courage. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
71
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 19:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Edaine Numenor wrote:Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that. Another good idea would be to never dock in a lowsec station for which you do not have an "instawarp" location bookmarked along the station's undocking vector. They're not difficult to make, and while they involve a small time investment, they are worth the time spent in the amount of lives and ISK saved by their use - just be careful not to be probed down while in one or making one. |
Deceiver's Voice
Project Daedalid
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 21:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:I have followed this wrong headed work of those who go about freeing slaves and I wholly disagree with it.
A very telling statement and one that perhaps blinds you to what was actually said by me. I believe there is nothing to be gained from further discussion.
Fly safe. |
Kalen Vox
Veyr
The Veyr Collective
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.27 21:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
By and large, people seem to be inherently malevolent.
His goal will be to cause suffering to you and to anyone else. Nothing more. Years of experience have told me there is no point trying to rationalise it. There could be strategic motives behind his attack, yes, but the chances are so small that it's almost pointless even considering it.
Firing on unarmed ships is unpleasant. I have done it in the past, usually when they are carrying out recon on my fleet. I suppose firing on unarmed ships is cowardly. But he won't see it that way, and nor will most people while the task is at hand..
|
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
243
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 00:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:Edaine Numenor wrote:Thank you Ms. Nexxala, Ms. Farel, and Mr. Blackshell for your feedback and thought; especially, Ms. Farel for your tip on exiting stations. So an immediate stop and redock would have been the best thing to do. I'll memorize that. Another good idea would be to never dock in a lowsec station for which you do not have an "instawarp" location bookmarked along the station's undocking vector. They're not difficult to make, and while they involve a small time investment, they are worth the time spent in the amount of lives and ISK saved by their use - just be careful not to be probed down while in one or making one.
Oh, and I almost forgot to add that several types of space stations seem to have very short ranged tractor beams, putting you out of range for redocking purposes almost as soon as you land outside. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
72
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 01:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Oh, and I almost forgot to add that several types of space stations seem to have very short ranged tractor beams, putting you out of range for redocking purposes almost as soon as you land outside.
Exactly why I suggested the use of "instawarp bookmarks". Should've mentioned it myself, heh. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
206
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
I applaud your efforts Edaine. The cluster is a dark, blood-thirsty place however. If you'd like I can teach you some piloting tricks to escape blockades and "camps". As you mentioned, a warp core stabilizer would have been excellent; general rule of thumb for hauling in lowsec is to fit only as many cargo expanders as you absolutely need, and then fit out with as many warp core stabilizers as possible. Safety is a must, especially in this line of work. |
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
147
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rek Jaiga wrote:I applaud your efforts Edaine. The cluster is a dark, blood-thirsty place however. If you'd like I can teach you some piloting tricks to escape blockades and "camps". As you mentioned, a warp core stabilizer would have been excellent; general rule of thumb for hauling in lowsec is to fit only as many cargo expanders as you absolutely need, and then fit out with as many warp core stabilizers as possible. Safety is a must, especially in this line of work.
Thank you, Rek. It is really interesting that I had no problems at gates because I had cloaking but the station proximity got me. What do you think of using rigs to get my cargo hold expanded and then fitting two warp core stabilizer in my two low spots? I have a lot mining to do and time to plan it before I buy another Viator so I'm listening to ideas. Is there any module that can go in a medium slot to enhance safety? It only has one high slot, so that is taken with the cloak.
Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
243
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 19:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have never used any warp core stabilizer mods on any of my blockade runners. It is totally pointless in low security space if you know what you are doing. It is impossible to destroy you near a station unless something really unexpected happens (but this can happen everywhere with any ship, independantly of everything you could do in regards to safety). It is also very hard to catch you at a gate due to your cloaking device, unless the gate itself is obstructed by a lot of garbage (which is too rare to be duely taken into consideration). In nullsec space for the first one and lowsec space for the second one, warp core stabilizers are anyway irrelevant against warp interdiction bubbles and heavy interdictors. |
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
148
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 19:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:I have never used any warp core stabilizer mods on any of my blockade runners. It is totally pointless in low security space if you know what you are doing. It is impossible to destroy you near a station unless something really unexpected happens (but this can happen everywhere with any ship, independantly of everything you could do in regards to safety). It is also very hard to catch you at a gate due to your cloaking device, unless the gate itself is obstructed by a lot of garbage (which is too rare to be duely taken into consideration). In nullsec space for the first one and lowsec space for the second one, warp core stabilizers are anyway irrelevant against warp interdiction bubbles and heavy interdictors.
Ms. Farel, do recommend inertial stabilizers? Should I have any jammers or any ECM of any kind?
Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
576
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 19:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
You could try a setup like this one:
Quote:
[Viator, All-Purpose Hauler]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Damage Control II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I
You can replace the expanded cargohold modules for inertia stabilizers to greatly decrease the time it takes for your ship to align and warp (to as low as 3.79 seconds with two of them). You could also replace them with warp core stabilizers, but they would only really come in useful if anyone has time to even target your Viator before you cloak -- which should frankly never happen. The mid slots are largely utilitary for blockade runners, so I would just recommend fitting a nominal shield tank there.
Now as for not being caught, use insta-warp spots as recommended earlier, and as for on gates, use the cloak-microwarpdrive trick. If you don't know what it is, I wrote an article detailing it.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Angriest Angel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 00:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
dude, fly a transport ship. Since eve invented this dumb transport ships, might as well use it. It so killed like 98% of all ransom attempt from pirates and took a lot of fun out of the game. Minmatar slaves, not worth anything, my other character would not even have considered ransom such useless cargo. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
576
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 00:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Angriest Angel wrote:dude, fly a transport ship
You are aware that the Viator is a transport ship, right?
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
243
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 00:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
Edaine Numenor wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:I have never used any warp core stabilizer mods on any of my blockade runners. It is totally pointless in low security space if you know what you are doing. It is impossible to destroy you near a station unless something really unexpected happens (but this can happen everywhere with any ship, independantly of everything you could do in regards to safety). It is also very hard to catch you at a gate due to your cloaking device, unless the gate itself is obstructed by a lot of garbage (which is too rare to be duely taken into consideration). In nullsec space for the first one and lowsec space for the second one, warp core stabilizers are anyway irrelevant against warp interdiction bubbles and heavy interdictors. Ms. Farel, do recommend inertial stabilizers? Should I have any jammers or any ECM of any kind?
Do as you wish, you can still favor warp core stabilizers if you really want to, or inertia stabilizers if you do not need more space with cargo expanders... The most important remains the way you command your ship eventually. |
Angriest Angel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 01:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
yeah i was writing thinking you wrote that wrong. I mean, how the hell can you get caught in a transport ship ffs...... |
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
148
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 01:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
Angriest Angel wrote:yeah i was writing thinking you wrote that wrong. I mean, how the hell can you get caught in a transport ship ffs......
Anything can happen when you are a crappy pilot like me. I'm not a warrior.
Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can. |
Angriest Angel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 13:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
You do not understand...
To blow up a 100+ million isk ship is fun. Whether the cargo are slaves, refugees or whatever, is of no importance.
If I would catch a transport ship, I do not care if he offers me half a billion isk ransom, my pirate alt will kill it.
The invention of transport ships took a lot of the fun from pirates in eve. In fact, I wonder if you can still call today's pirating in eve pirating. The days were you caught your industrials jumping into low sec are over. I killed and ransomed with my alt, one after the other, I made millions. I ransomed, honored ransom, stole, popped, so many industrials, those were the days.
Then transport ships were invented and since then, it made surviving as a pirate much harder.
Imagine how those guys that popped you feel ? Dude, they see a transport ship, they go for it. Everytime you fly such a ship, you might as well name it 1 billion isk reward for popping me, it makes no difference, people hate your transport ships so they do anything to pop it.
Next time you undock and see trouble, do absolutely nothing, do not even stop ship, you are too slow anyway for it to make a difference whether you stop or not, just dock up again. Do not try warp away, nothing, just click dock button, log out, go back a few hours later.
|
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
178
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 16:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Angriest Angel wrote:You do not understand...
To blow up a 100+ million isk ship is fun. Whether the cargo are slaves, refugees or whatever, is of no importance.
If I would catch a transport ship, I do not care if he offers me half a billion isk ransom, my pirate alt will kill it.
The invention of transport ships took a lot of the fun from pirates in eve. In fact, I wonder if you can still call today's pirating in eve pirating. The days were you caught your industrials jumping into low sec are over. I killed and ransomed with my alt, one after the other, I made millions. I ransomed, honored ransom, stole, popped, so many industrials, those were the days.
Then transport ships were invented and since then, it made surviving as a pirate much harder.
Imagine how those guys that popped you feel ? Dude, they see a transport ship, they go for it. Everytime you fly such a ship, you might as well name it 1 billion isk reward for popping me, it makes no difference, people hate your transport ships so they do anything to pop it.
Next time you undock and see trouble, do absolutely nothing, do not even stop ship, you are too slow anyway for it to make a difference whether you stop or not, just dock up again. Do not try warp away, nothing, just click dock button, log out, go back a few hours later.
I have no idea what you're talking about. What in the world is an alt?
(OOC: Remember, its an in character forum. lolrpers and all that) |
Marcus Henik
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 14:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Use shield hardeners and extenders to maximize your buffer tank, this will buy you time to act, nothing more. |
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