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Superhighway Changes fail to Address Problems

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Tsual	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:17:00 - [61] Erm I jsut wanted to remind that between Pator and Amarr prime there is a second sort of highway going through Derelikt (only being a route of 6 or 7 systems) with every sector being 1.0 or 0.9. -------------------------------------- Tsual - Miner from faith, frigat junky for life. Ritual of the Qua'nadhar.
Harliquin	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:35:00 - [62] Well here we go again - ooh superhighways killed the market - whoop te do. Let me give you a clue, people do not travel to buy goods full stop. They can't be bothered, I can sell goods for 20-30% more than the price in an adjacent system and people will still buy them why because they believe they can make more money doing stuff than trolling around for the cheapest price. All you have to do is pick your market - if you can't do that right you have no business trading.
cashman	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:38:00 - [63] Originally by: Harliquin Well here we go again - ooh superhighways killed the market - whoop te do. Let me give you a clue, people do not travel to buy goods full stop. They can't be bothered, I can sell goods for 20-30% more than the price in an adjacent system and people will still buy them why because they believe they can make more money doing stuff than trolling around for the cheapest price. All you have to do is pick your market - if you can't do that right you have no business trading. No no no no. You're not allowed to make sense, man. ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:41:00 - [64] Originally by: Harliquin Well here we go again - ooh superhighways killed the market - whoop te do. Let me give you a clue, people do not travel to buy goods full stop. They can't be bothered, I can sell goods for 20-30% more than the price in an adjacent system and people will still buy them why because they believe they can make more money doing stuff than trolling around for the cheapest price. All you have to do is pick your market - if you can't do that right you have no business trading. Whereas now everything is the same price because everything is sold in the same systems. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Achec	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:47:00 - [65] Originally by: MrPops Originally by: Sara Kerrigan CCP aren't the only ones that can make visual aids :) This is just a quick sketch, and I'm tired right now, so I may have screwed up on what I was thinking, but check it out. Clicky!! Looks to me like bottlenecks to get from one Empire to another. Specially if the gates will be in lower security systems. I can see them becoming death gates or choke points controlled by the same people who control key access to current regions. Removing the highways may be a theoretical "solution" for market and roleplay purposes, however, it creates more downtime and more downtime equals boring gameplay. For example, longer travel times, the creation of population clusters possibly distributed unevenly, much longer travel times between engagements between competing factions, much longer travel times between market trades, it would make it more difficult for large corportations to manage multiple offices in different regions, transportation of goods/supplies will become a chore, travel time increased for varied gameplay - going from playing with corp in empire space to a casual pirate hunt in 0.0. So every time you want to do something different you have to invest a considerable ammount of time just to get there. That to me is downtime and that is boring. Just so we can create this "feeling" of vastness and create this regional market culture with the same items everyone uses is just not worth it. I don't care to travel 30 jumps so I can buy X item for Y less ammount of money. Now if the DEVS created interesting items that were only found in the regions pertaining to their cultural creators with added benefits or penalties. That would be worth traveling from one region to another separated by long distances. If the DEVS added a story line that created real conflict between the factions and actually made it beneficial to attack each other, making 70 jumps with a fleet of ships would be worth it. If you remove the highways now with the current gameplay structure, you are looking for trouble and the DEVS think so as well. yup
McWatt	Posted - 2004.04.20 19:54:00 - [66] Edited by: McWatt on 20/04/2004 19:55:04 high sec space has too many advantages: * market * highways * safety it s no suprise that everyone gets stuck there. so: * remove (high sec) highway * move advanced production (Tech 2, battleships, ...) to low sec * improve yield of low sec ores
Achec	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:00:00 - [67] Originally by: Cao Cao Edited by: Cao Cao on 20/04/2004 08:41:29 Edited by: Cao Cao on 20/04/2004 08:40:32 Quote: Just because I truly believe that carebears - yes I said it, CAREBEARS - are ruining the game doesn't make it any less true. When 80% of prison inmates in the U.S. are blacks, someone saying that blacks commit more crimes than other races doesn't make that person a racist. It is simply a statement of fact. If i may just use your example, that there is simple answer, Black's in the US are 6 times as likely to be convicted in the US as a white person who commited the same crime. And yes, it is easy blanketing everyone in the game as either carebare or hardcore pvp/pk; But the thing is is that there are a lot of people who are both; And what you classify "carebare" is everything in the game non-shooting-your-weapons-atm. So cao cao stfu before you make even a bigger fool of your self. You remind me of a redneck trying to convince everyone to vote for Bush.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:00:00 - [68] Lineage 2 fails to keep FE carebears from whining about highways ! ¼©¼ a history
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Megatron CBB lets see...ppl are complaining about pator being connected to amarr for economic reasons....what do u think happens in the real world...countries trade with each other..the faster the better which improves profits and turn around...it already takes too long to get anywhere in the game now so stop your whinning about getting rid of the highways... Okay I love it when people bring real life arguments into the game. Before I leave for the evening I need to reply to this as this is a typical argument made in favor of keeping the highways in place. You are talking about what "happens in the real world....countries trade with each other..the faster the better . . . ." Well, you are correct! That IS what happens on the planet EARTH. However, port this argument into Eve, and what you've got is: WE ARE NOT PLAYING IN A PLANETARY WORLD. You're talking about millions of light-years with your "Earth" argument. Part of the argument against the highways is that it SHOULDN'T be possible to construct these things. If you read the storyline behind the jumpgates, as I'm sure nobody has, you will realize that these highways, in the context of the in-game story, are just really . . . not . . . possible. This argument is not really to promote lower prices or allow people access to everywhere. Due to the nature of the Eve universe as being a GAME where ANYTHING is possible, the argument really is that removal of the highways should be made to make more interesting, more challenging, more diverse, and more in-depth gameplay. If they were removed, YES you would be paying more for certain commodities and items in your home region. In that sense, highway removal "hurts" the consumer. But it also opens up new career opportunities, it by definition expands "Empire Space" beyond the mere core of Yulai/NC/Pator/Luminaire, and it actually gives some meaning to the words Amarr, Minmatar, Caldari, and Gallente. In the same way that we (the proponents for removal of the highways) have argued for removal or severe nerfing of blueprint copies (DESPITE the fact that doing so would in fact "hurt" the consumer), we want this change to improve the game. Some may have piratical ambitions in arguing in favor of this change. I do not. I am merely advocating this because I think it would make for a much much MUCH more . . . what word am I looking for? . . . RICH world. Yes, the World of Eve would become much more "rich," in terms of the diversity of content. Anyway I read the Dev responses in the dev blog on the subject, and I am very much reassured that they also understand this issue. I am hopeful that once we get to 15,000 or 20,000 concurrent users, a major catastrophic event will strike and the highways will be taken down. Cao
Cinc	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:03:00 - [70] > The only reason is to *** off carebears like you.* This is where your argument lost it's edge Cao. In any debate, regardless of the validity of one's claim, the instant you lose your cool, throw insults or thumb your nose at someone you lose your audience's favor.

Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:13:00 - [71] Edited by: Cao Cao on 20/04/2004 20:16:13 Originally by: Achec And yes, it is easy blanketing everyone in the game as either carebare or hardcore pvp/pk; But the thing is is that there are a lot of people who are both; And what you classify "carebare" is everything in the game non-shooting-your-weapons-atm. So cao cao stfu before you make even a bigger fool of your self. You remind me of a redneck trying to convince everyone to vote for Bush. Wow, you are truly, truly ignorant. I have not classified everyone who doesn't shoot weapons as a carebear. My definition of Carebear is someone who strives to make the game easier to play, wishes for not just the equal opportunity to succeed, but equality itself in the game. There are plenty of them here. Yes I mean the ones who want arkonor in 1.0 systems, battleships to cost 500,000 isk each, and 500 sentry guns at every stargate - oh yes and CONCORD to show up anywhere that anybody else dares shoot at them. There are many, many of them here and you can really pick them out easily. There are plenty of traders and manufacturers and miners who are NOT carebears. Go to Fountain - there you find many mining corporations that have little or no combat experience. Yet they take the risk, they don't cry when they get attacked and destroyed. Look to the Phoenix Alliance. Again, NOT carebears despite many of them being mining / manufacturing corporations. Look to guys like Jash Illian, a trader and manufacturer, enjoys a challenge, wants the game to be more diverse, not as easy. NOT a carebear. Then there are PKers and pirates, like myself and many others who either are or used to be pirates. And don't get me wrong - it is possible for pirates to be carebears as well. IMO people who want to be able to go PKing in 1.0 systems without being blown up and without repercussion, are pirate carebears. In other words, people who do not want balance, who want the game to be easy for them to play, who want every advantage, who resent others who are more successful, are the carebears. At least by my own personal definition. Cao EDIT: and yes, I am voting for Bush.
a176	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:28:00 - [72] Quote: If you read the storyline behind the jumpgates, as I'm sure nobody has, you will realize that these highways, in the context of the in-game story, are just really . . . not . . . possible. Excellent point!
Mr nStuff	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:36:00 - [73] They added superhighways and forgot to change the storyline. Big whoop.. 5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers.. Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer. My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period. Expires on 19. September 2004
a176	Posted - 2004.04.20 20:37:00 - [74] http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_03.asp http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_04.asp http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_05.asp They didn't need to change the story. Enjoy.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2004.04.20 21:20:00 - [75] I'm with Cao Cao on this. Remove the Highway. Anyone that wants to form a terrorist organisation make the use of highway systems untenable, please let me know. I'll join.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.04.20 22:15:00 - [76] actually superhighways are in the stories.. READ HERE _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Dharma Lacere	Posted - 2004.04.21 12:03:00 - [77] Phoenix Alliance aren't carebears? Oh right, you're not going to get that because I don't know how to put my corp under my avatar Could someone tell me? Or would that be hijaking a thread? I just dunno...I get so confused and then sometimes I just wanna start podding people who complaing about how the universe is so small and you shouldn't have to take so few jumps through empire and the market is declining (oh and industrious people will always find a way to trade goods as quickly as possible, planetary world or massive universe). If you want a more involved roleplaying experience, stop staying in empire. If everyone wasn't hanging around in empire because they don't want to deal with any risk at all, which i understand is 'a viable option in this game and what makes it so great and blah blah', then there wouldn't be a need for the highways in the center of empire. Start hanging out in 0.0 all the time and then they'll build highways there to deal with the massive populations and you can cry about that. Anyways, how do i put info under my avatar? Thanks.
Harliquin	Posted - 2004.04.22 10:30:00 - [78] Edited by: Harliquin on 22/04/2004 10:31:19 Originally by: Joshua Calvert Whereas now everything is the same price because everything is sold in the same systems. No it isn't - you can go from one system to another next door and see a big price difference - try opening you eyes and looking for the markets instead of trying to flog all your wares at Yulai. At the end of the day your goods are worth what the customer will pay for them not what you want for them.
Intersec Spy	Posted - 2004.04.22 10:59:00 - [79] Edited by: Intersec Spy on 22/04/2004 11:01:54 Edited by: Intersec Spy on 22/04/2004 11:01:40 In my opinion , after highway , the travell across eve universe its less interesting. You know...the universe must be huge...and dangerous to explore becouse you are FAR from your home...this new "give me 30 minutes and i could vistis every part of the eve world" philosophy kills the role play...im not a harcore-gamer Remove the highway
Maud Dib	Posted - 2004.04.22 12:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Achec Originally by: Cao Cao Edited by: Cao Cao on 20/04/2004 08:41:29 Edited by: Cao Cao on 20/04/2004 08:40:32 Quote: Just because I truly believe that carebears - yes I said it, CAREBEARS - are ruining the game doesn't make it any less true. When 80% of prison inmates in the U.S. are blacks, someone saying that blacks commit more crimes than other races doesn't make that person a racist. It is simply a statement of fact. If i may just use your example, that there is simple answer, Black's in the US are 6 times as likely to be convicted in the US as a white person who commited the same crime. And yes, it is easy blanketing everyone in the game as either carebare or hardcore pvp/pk; But the thing is is that there are a lot of people who are both; And what you classify "carebare" is everything in the game non-shooting-your-weapons-atm. So cao cao stfu before you make even a bigger fool of your self. You remind me of a redneck trying to convince everyone to vote for Bush. There is no place here for RL politics.

Lianhaun	Posted - 2004.04.22 12:59:00 - [81] You cant expect CCP to remove all highways, not many people will be around if they have to travel at least 30 j to get somewhere and 30 j back. Not everybody plays for 6 hours a day. This is not a hijack
Ishkur	Posted - 2004.04.22 14:06:00 - [82] I am sick of this whining. All the "l33t" EVE players (and now even the GMs and the forum mods) are angry cause their game is now more noob friendly. You have nostalgia for the way things used to be? Are you prepared for the consequences? There's a REASON why only 6k people would be on during the weekends. You can go back and recreate those days, but don't expect your glorious subscriber numbers to go up. I am sure any of the Devs that actually think about these things will see that reverting EVE back to the way "things used to be" is probably not a wise business decision. Of course, the forum warriors don't care if EVE makes money or not. But one would hope that CCP does.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.04.22 14:25:00 - [83] Originally by: Ishkur I am sick of this whining. You have nostalgia for the way things used to be? Are you prepared for the consequences? There's a REASON why only 6k people would be on during the weekends. None of it had anything to do with highways - lots of it had lots to do with a total abscence of S&SI marketing etc. Cross-Empire highways are not needed anymore and do more harm than good.
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.04.22 15:01:00 - [84] Morkt, Not to mention the near-unbearable infestation of bugs. _____________ Lianhuan, See what you fail to realize, as has been pointed out MANY times, is that there is absolutely ZERO reason for you to NEED to go from Amarr to Caldari to Minmatar space in your average gaming session. In fact, you could live your entire Eve career in one area. So your argument about needing to spend 6 hours to travel anywhere is fatally flawed. _____________ Maud dib, I wasn't trying to bring politics into the discussion, I was making an analogy. Cao
Harliquin	Posted - 2004.04.22 15:05:00 - [85] Originally by: Morkt Drak Cross-Empire highways are not needed anymore and do more harm than good. I what way? Do you now have a bit of competition in your markets? aww shame. Listen mate, if I have to put up with the thug bunnies banging on about how this game is soooooo based around PvP then hey economic PvP has to be allowed as well - and guess what the highways allow that by giving me quick access to the other markets I've scoped out. Not yulai, Pator et al but actual markets away from those black holes of profit. If you don't like it I'll be forced to undercut you by another 10%
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.04.22 15:46:00 - [86] Harliquin, You are a shining example of why it is a good idea to remove the highways. Cao
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.04.22 15:52:00 - [87] Originally by: Harliquin Originally by: Morkt Drak Cross-Empire highways are not needed anymore and do more harm than good. I what way? Do you now have a bit of competition in your markets? aww shame. Listen mate, if I have to put up with the thug bunnies banging on about how this game is soooooo based around PvP then hey economic PvP has to be allowed as well - and guess what the highways allow that by giving me quick access to the other markets I've scoped out. Not yulai, Pator et al but actual markets away from those black holes of profit. If you don't like it I'll be forced to undercut you by another 10% Feel free to do so. I dont sell anything for you to undercut so... bit of waste of effort really. Does make me wonder who you think you have been undercutting though - probably yourself given the quotient inplications of this post of yours.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2004.04.22 16:08:00 - [88] Edited by: Morkt Drak on 22/04/2004 16:12:40 I know this is a wate of effort - but one has to try. Harliquin Without the cross-empire highways you would have less competition at tose remote sell spots, higher sales prices and more income. Wnat to know why? Because fewer people make the ffort to do the journey. Thus you compete only against the more localised traders. THis is what it was like before highways: those who put in the effort to transport goods from a to z got the reward in ISK. Now they compete against everybody else as there is no effort to go from A to B. Introduction of the highways saw a massive collapse in prices almost overnight. This is great for the buyers, bad for the manufacturers, bad for the traders. To make the same isk profit you had to make more journeys to move more items. Less travel time became more travel time in terms of isk per jump. The removal of cross-empire highway means removal of the link between, for example, caldari empire space to gallente empire space. it does not mean remove all the highways. This post was bought to you by: Morkts knows the guy wont lsiten but not trying is tantamount to ignorance. EDit: and btw, none of this is hypothetical. This is how the marketplace was before easy travel... just look at all the crying now at the addition of 3 or 4 jumps to see the attitude toward haivng to make a recogniseably relevant distance to sell or buy a product. Either way - it bothers me not as, as stated, i dont sell stuff like that.
Maud Dib	Posted - 2004.04.22 16:15:00 - [89] Yeah Cao Cao I got that I was responding to the other guy.
Ishkur	Posted - 2004.04.22 16:40:00 - [90] Originally by: Morkt Drak None of it had anything to do with highways - lots of it had lots to do with a total abscence of S&SI marketing etc. Cross-Empire highways are not needed anymore and do more harm than good. What rubbish. I realize if you've played EVE since beta you probably thought EVE was a fun game back then. I didn't, and I know for a FACT that I'm not the only one. 99% of the EnB people who came to EVE after the closure of that game did so because of testimonials from players who SWORE that EVE was better than before. It wasn't just bugs, it was that EVE was sheerly a horrid game to play. It wasn't fun, it wasn't interesting. It was boring, monotonous, tedious, and lame. You want more boredom, more monotony, more tediousness, and more lameness in EVE. I think we need less of those things not more. To each his own, I guess. But if CCP wants to make money off this game, they won't make it more boring, they'll make it less so. And yes, travelling 50 jumps to buy a new ship IS boring.



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