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Arazel Chainfire
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.04.11 15:18:00 -
[1]
Ok, as someone who has been playing for about a year and a half, I know a great deal about eve. I can help new people fit ships, fly missions, understand why certain fits work, and others don't, and the basics of PvP. I also understand and can explain mining, manufacturing (both t1 and t2), invention (well... the basics of how to do it), and the usage of POS's.
What I do not understand is the market.
So, if I have a new person that I'm helping introduce to eve who is interested in how the markets work, how would I go about doing that?
At the moment all I can think of is saying "here's a mil - go play", and ask them how they did after they loose it all (or actually make money... who knows...). I don't really like this idea because when they come to me for help, they expect well reasoned responses (which I usually give) and oftentimes chats lasting up to an hour on the how's and whys of the various aspects of the particular part of eve that they asked about. With the market though, I can't give any help on how to use it or what they need to be able to play with it effectively.
Thanks for your input.
-Arazel
 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.
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Sharpclaw
Caldari
Loc-Nar Support Services
DO JAJA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.11 15:29:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sharpclaw on 11/04/2008 15:31:35
Make a lame joke about buy low sell high and then refuse to tell them anything of significance because you don't want the added competition. 
Seriously though, I would point you to the stickies at the top of the forum for an excellent starting point.
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Arazel Chainfire
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.04.11 15:58:00 -
[3]
bah... always forget about the damn stickies...
They sit there, hovering, and you read then when you first enter a forum and thereafter forget about it...
Will look through them and then post what I need more help explaining.
-Arazel
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.
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Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.04.11 16:19:00 -
[4]
Additionally, if you're not married to your corp, you could look into the universities of New Eden, like Eve University as well as our corp, The Trivenerate. I do not know EU's specific requirements, but I can say we don't require you to stay with us for any length of time, just that your status is at least 0.0. We instruct on all matters related to Eve.
GL
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Nex Altrad
Caldari
East-West Trading Company
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.11 19:35:00 -
[5]
Yes, there are a few corporations that exist to educate new traders. Ours (East West Trading Company) is one of them.
Though for pilots who are already in a corp I suggest they attend one of the Market Presentations that Hexxx gives. If you can't attend there is a thread somewhere in the forums with a link to the audio from his last one. I will try an find it.
Lastly, I might be able to answer some questions (still pratty new myself) in game. Open a chat and I'll try to help if not submerged in orders or on a mission. For this I highly encourage access to Eve Voice because typing all the details will drive us crazy.
-And where is the profit in that?
(East-West Trading Company is looking for pilots who want to learn market trading) |
Finideach
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Posted - 2008.04.11 19:48:00 -
[6]
You guys may use it as a joke. But the whole buy low sell high thing was my main barrier to entry so I ran cargo and courier contracts for awhile. I kept staring at the market screens - WILLING it to make sense. Then I said "aww **** it" and tried. A month later and I'm up to 200m (not fantastic but I'm happy with it) and bragging on corp chat when I ding Accounting IV or Margin Trading IV. =)
My advice is not to throw a mil at them and hope it works. But find a market scenario where you think they'll actually make some money and break even and simply walk them through this.
1. Here's a mil - don't spend it on drones.
2. Go to system X and put in a buy order for Y for item Z.
3. Take item Z and go to system A and put in a sell order for B.
4. Collect profit.
5. Pay me instruction fee. =)
I'm one of those believers that a rising market floats all boats. The more the merrier. Like any other form of PvP those who don't thrive in it will naturally self-select out of the effort. Good luck! |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.11 20:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nex Altrad
Edited by: Nex Altrad on 11/04/2008 19:50:42
Yes, there are a few corporations that exist to educate new traders. Ours (East West Trading Company) is one of them.
Though for pilots who are already in a corp I suggest they attend one of the Market Presentations that Hexxx gives. If you can't attend there is a thread somewhere in the forums with a link to the audio from his last one. I will try and find it.
Lastly, I might be able to answer some questions (still pretty new myself) in game. Open a chat and I'll try to help if not submerged in orders or on a mission. For this I highly encourage access to Eve Voice because typing all the details will drive us crazy.
Ok. I pulled this from the last Business Workshop post hope it helps.
Quote:
I believe one is available on eve-files somewhere. the file name is simply called "HEXXX" its a rar.....
The thread is here: http://eve-search.com/thread/716047/page/5
That's the one.
Director | www.eve-bank.net
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Arazel Chainfire
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.04.12 19:32:00 -
[8]
Thanks for the link, and for your advice Findeach.
I'll listen to the audio file when i next get some time for it.
-Arazel
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.
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Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.12 20:55:00 -
[9]
.rar is a compressed format (like .zip) so you need to unpack the audio file inside first.
--------------
GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
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gilca
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Posted - 2008.04.12 21:43:00 -
[10]
I've never been good at playing the in-game market. I always end up buying something that would have grat profit if it wasn't such a pain to haul etc. For Example the other day I noticed a great deal of profit on Tobacco. I figured surely tobacco would weight less than missiles so I ought to be able to haul 30,000 of it in 2 trips max. Lo and behold I was WRONGGGUGUGUG and now it's just not cost effective to haul it, so it sits on the market awaiting the next less-than-savvy buy low sell high artist to make the same mistake I did. I've given up on it hah. Kudos to you guys who can make it work
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Roguehalo
Caldari
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.04.12 22:50:00 -
[11]
npc trading was nerfed a good while ago.
These days trading is generally considered to be player trading
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Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.13 04:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Roguehalo
npc trading was nerfed a good while ago.
These days trading is generally considered to be player trading
And trading and hauling are also considered two different things for most people. Though you can do both of course.
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GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
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Segge Bolled
Caldari
Dirty Sexy Pilots
New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.13 09:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Roguehalo
npc trading was nerfed a good while ago.
Yes, yes, it was. 
The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.13 11:08:00 -
[14]
For me they most key fundamental "first thing" to teach market newcomers is not anything specific such as "buy low, sell high". The first thing to teach is the concept of Eve's marketplace.
In PvP, you have roaming or gate camp or a direct assault. You have support, anti-support, fleet attack, etc., etc., etc. Eve's Marketplace is as varied, in scope and activity, as PvP can be. One must realize that at all stages of a product's life cycle, that being from conception to destruction, are equally dependent upon each other but are, if you so choose it, completely separate activities at the personal level.
Everything from materials gathering to production to transport to ... the list isn't endless but it can be long and varied. All of these steps can either be done by one person/group as an all inclusive end-to-end process or each step can be a specialization. And you could swap in and or swap out personal involvement at each stage.
As an example, many of the bigger market traders do very little of their own hauling. They set up contracts for other to do them. Mind you, the hauling still gets done! Someone is doing it just not those particular individuals. Another is simply buying minerals off the market. By swapping out isk instead of effort you have allowed someone else to complete a stage for you.
So, essentially the first concept is: Point of Sale is but one part of a larger process. Understand the process and find which one, or all of them, that your current (or planned) activities will include.
IMHO you start the thinker on the right path and their growth and experiences in this side of Eve will be healthy and rewarding. You know that old "Teach a man to fish" stuff.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.13 11:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
. You know that old "Teach a man to fish" stuff.
That is so overrated. I mean, what happened to survival of the fittest?
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.13 11:35:00 -
[16]
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.04.13 11:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Oh snap  I got owned 
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Arazel Chainfire
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.04.14 12:32:00 -
[18]
Thanks for the replay Shar - to tell the truth, I hadn't looked at it in quite that manner.
I listened to the audio file (4 hour car drives are good for something after all  ), and it had alot of useful information. I now actually know what all those little graphs and stuff are  , among other things. I'll have to keep my eyes out for more of those if/when they come out, and possibly participate in the next one - it was rather interesting.
Thanks everyone for your help.
-Arazel
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.
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jna
Caldari
Black Ash Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.15 10:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I always liked the PJ O'Rourke extension of it (in the context of Charitable contributions to Africa iirc):
"Give a man a fish, and he will feed himself for one meal.
Give a man the means to catch fish, and he will feed his family until he can fish no more.
But give a man a gun - and other people will bring him fish forever."
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When Carebears Attack! <-- Hulk PvP video |
Ordon Gundar
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Posted - 2008.04.15 13:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Roguehalo
npc trading was nerfed a good while ago.
These days trading is generally considered to be player trading
Thats funny, I could point out an NPC route right now that you could do in a Badger, in about 8 jumps, that would nett 792,000 isk profit each trip, with an outlay of 2.9 mil isk in initial stock. Thats not a bad margin in my opinion, and you only need to trade to Cal Industrial.
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