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Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 11:37:00 -
[1]
With all the recent boosts to mining, the introduction of the Rorquel capital mining ship, The Orca planned brother to the Rorquel.
The is one aspect of mining which has still not been addressed, Mining Efficiency...
The way the Mining Mechanics work currently, you have mining lasers with set cycle times that mine a set yeild (depending on your skills/fitting ect)
When you mine an asteroid your lasers operate for their set cycle time, then at the end of the cycle the server checks how much ore you've mined and deposits that ore in your cargo hold.
All well and great you think?
The problem appears when there is not enough ore keft in the asteroid to fill your mining yield, when this occurs the asteroid pops (dissaperes) and the remaining ore in the asteroid is deposited in your cargo hold.
So if for example your laser mines 2000 units of ore per cycle, but there is only 161 units of ore left in the asteroid, you will only get 161 units of ore, but it will still take the full laser cycle time to retrive those 161 units.
This results in the loss of 1839 units of ore for that cycle. If you had 3 strip mining lasers working that asteroid you will still only get 161 units and lose 5839 units that you could have mined in the same amount of time.
On average if you spend 1 hour mining an asteroid belt, you will lose 1 3rd of your potential mining amount to asteroids depleting with less than your mining yield worth of ore left in them.
IMO this loss undermines ALL of the various mining yield bonus's a dedicated miner strifes to achieve.
A side affect of the way the mechanics work currently is that if for example an asteroid has 300 units of ore left in it and there are 3 different players mining this asteroid,
The 1st player/mining laser to complete a cycle will get the 300 units of ore, the other 2 players will get a big fat NOTHING!!!. No matter how many lasers they put on the roid, no matter how much time they spent on it, they will get NOTHING!!!
For me fixing the flawed mining mechanics as described above would be worth more than an Orca or Rorquel put together as it would enable dedicated miners like myself to mine their full yield and make good use of all ther mining skills/bonus's availlable.
The Crasiest thing of all is that it is so easery fixed that i cannot understand why it has not been already.
All that is required is a few mathmatical calculations to compare the amount of ore left in an asteroid against the yield of the lasers mining it and work out how long it should take to deplete the remaining ore.
For example if an asteroid has 1000 units of ore left, and your mining laser has a yield of 5000 units per 3 minute cycle then it will take 5000 units / 180 sec cycletime = 27 units per sec. 1000 units of ore remaining / 27 units per sec = 38 sec (approx) to deplete the Asteroid.
So all thats needed then is to adjust the cycletime of your mining laser to 38 sec instead of 180 sec, so that the asteroid then depletes after 38 seconds and you can then move on to the next asteroid.
Also when an asteroid depletes, the remaining ore should be shared between ALL lasers/players mining it depending on the amount of time the laser has spent mining it, so that if more than 1 player is mining the same asteroid they will all get a share of the ore instead of 1 getting all and the others getting nothing.
As stated above I believe fixing this would be worth more than a Rorquel and all the other stuff thats been added to mining in recent months.
I would be very interested to hear what the devs think about this... CCP Chronotis care to comment?
What do you guys think?
/Flame suit on....
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Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.04.19 11:37:00 -
[2]
With all the recent boosts to mining, the introduction of the Rorquel capital mining ship, The Orca planned brother to the Rorquel.
The is one aspect of mining which has still not been addressed, Mining Efficiency...
The way the Mining Mechanics work currently, you have mining lasers with set cycle times that mine a set yeild (depending on your skills/fitting ect)
When you mine an asteroid your lasers operate for their set cycle time, then at the end of the cycle the server checks how much ore you've mined and deposits that ore in your cargo hold.
All well and great you think?
The problem appears when there is not enough ore keft in the asteroid to fill your mining yield, when this occurs the asteroid pops (dissaperes) and the remaining ore in the asteroid is deposited in your cargo hold.
So if for example your laser mines 2000 units of ore per cycle, but there is only 161 units of ore left in the asteroid, you will only get 161 units of ore, but it will still take the full laser cycle time to retrive those 161 units.
This results in the loss of 1839 units of ore for that cycle. If you had 3 strip mining lasers working that asteroid you will still only get 161 units and lose 5839 units that you could have mined in the same amount of time.
On average if you spend 1 hour mining an asteroid belt, you will lose 1 3rd of your potential mining amount to asteroids depleting with less than your mining yield worth of ore left in them.
IMO this loss undermines ALL of the various mining yield bonus's a dedicated miner strifes to achieve.
A side affect of the way the mechanics work currently is that if for example an asteroid has 300 units of ore left in it and there are 3 different players mining this asteroid,
The 1st player/mining laser to complete a cycle will get the 300 units of ore, the other 2 players will get a big fat NOTHING!!!. No matter how many lasers they put on the roid, no matter how much time they spent on it, they will get NOTHING!!!
For me fixing the flawed mining mechanics as described above would be worth more than an Orca or Rorquel put together as it would enable dedicated miners like myself to mine their full yield and make good use of all ther mining skills/bonus's availlable.
The Crasiest thing of all is that it is so easery fixed that i cannot understand why it has not been already.
All that is required is a few mathmatical calculations to compare the amount of ore left in an asteroid against the yield of the lasers mining it and work out how long it should take to deplete the remaining ore.
For example if an asteroid has 1000 units of ore left, and your mining laser has a yield of 5000 units per 3 minute cycle then it will take 5000 units / 180 sec cycletime = 27 units per sec. 1000 units of ore remaining / 27 units per sec = 38 sec (approx) to deplete the Asteroid.
So all thats needed then is to adjust the cycletime of your mining laser to 38 sec instead of 180 sec, so that the asteroid then depletes after 38 seconds and you can then move on to the next asteroid.
Also when an asteroid depletes, the remaining ore should be shared between ALL lasers/players mining it depending on the amount of time the laser has spent mining it, so that if more than 1 player is mining the same asteroid they will all get a share of the ore instead of 1 getting all and the others getting nothing.
As stated above I believe fixing this would be worth more than a Rorquel and all the other stuff thats been added to mining in recent months.
I would be very interested to hear what the devs think about this... CCP Chronotis care to comment?
What do you guys think?
/Flame suit on....
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Ishall Marvoni
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Posted - 2008.04.19 14:26:00 -
[3]
Personally, I think that if you're using strip miners, then you should also be using a survey scanner and checking that there's minerals there to be mining. Doesn't cost much to fit one, and it actually means you've got to think slightly more than just driving into an asteroid field, plonking yourself in the middle and targetting everything/setting your lasers off/putting what comes into your cargo into a can every few minutes.
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Ethaet
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.19 15:55:00 -
[4]
This would be nice, but as it is you can just cycle your strip miners every 30 sec to 1 min if not afk, which does just about the same thing, without taking up a midslot like a scanner.
Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. |
Ferria
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.19 19:01:00 -
[5]
or you could mine different roids, use a scan and cycle you strips when you finish the roid
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Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 19:16:00 -
[6]
I already use a survey scanner, and i always mine different roids.
However the information provided by the survey scanner is limited at best...
The amount of ore in an asteroid does not decrease as you mine it, only when a mining laser completes a mining cycle is ore transfered from the asteroid to your cargo.
So even if the survey scanner operated on a repeating cycle, the info provided would only change when a mining cycle completes.
micro managing the mining by trying to guess when to tune my lasers on and off is not my idea of fun and should not be required to mine efficiently.
It also does not address the issue of different players getting no return when they are mining the same roid as someone else.
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Guvante
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2008.04.19 21:22:00 -
[7]
Welcome to only component of mining that actually takes player skill.
While it can sometimes be annoying, it does provide people who actually know something about the game to be able to mine more efficiently than those who just hit F1-3 until the roid pops. 
The survey scanner tells you exactly the right amount of information, you can even click on an item in the scanner to select it, which is awesome. All you have to do is know how much your strips take in per cycle, and cycle off/on any roid that is under that amount every 20-30 sec, easy peasy 
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Dromenga
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Posted - 2008.04.19 21:31:00 -
[8]
i noticed that too, that would be nice to fix that cause it is a waste of time. I cant stand it when i mine an asteroid that has 10m3 of ore left and it still took me the full amount of time.
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Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:52:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Ishall Marvoni
Personally, I think that if you're using strip miners, then you should also be using a survey scanner and checking that there's minerals there to be mining. Doesn't cost much to fit one, and it actually means you've got to think slightly more than just driving into an asteroid field, plonking yourself in the middle and targetting everything/setting your lasers off/putting what comes into your cargo into a can every few minutes.
What he said. There are ways to deal with it. It just means that AFK mining is less efficient.
----
Norjia Blacksteel
CEO
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 16:49:00 -
[10]
Who said anything about afk mining?
Its far easier just to skip the roids that have less than a full cycle of ore in them and move onto the next roid, and saves ****ing about turning lasers on and off every few seconds.
But thats beside the point, in reality miners would not continue to mine a depleted source because their mining equipment has a fixed cycle time.
Would it really be such a game breaking issue to fix the machanics and improve mining for the masses?
I can see no reason why not? its not changing any modules/ships/bonus's just fixing what i believe to be broken/outdated mechanics.
But meh....
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Norjia Blacksteel
There are ways to deal with it. It just means that AFK mining is less efficient.
Hooray! It's a boost to macro mining!
scnr
Seriously, though, it is annoying when you have to start/stop your miners by mere guessing. You either run out of cap or ore - either way, it's inefficient and an annoyance that will at best drive more people to use macros.
--------------------------------------------------
I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner. |
Perdix
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:31:00 -
[12]
Well I can only imagine that you mine in high sec or an over populated part of 0.00. If you go to some areas of 0.00 there are plenty of systems full of ore, if it is a system that isnt mined often then you can get a loads(10+) of cycles off before an asteroid pops.
Would reducing cycle time not then increase lag as it is requesting yield information from the server more often? Multiply that out by all the people mining at any 1 point and its probably not worth changing.
Mineral scanners are there for a reason if you do not want to use them then tough. When I am mining in high sec I dont tend to use them and thus it costs me. People that do use them though should have an advantage.
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Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Perdix
Would reducing cycle time not then increase lag as it is requesting yield information from the server more often? Multiply that out by all the people mining at any 1 point and its probably not worth changing.
Mineral scanners are there for a reason if you do not want to use them then tough. When I am mining in high sec I dont tend to use them and thus it costs me. People that do use them though should have an advantage.
And repeatedly activating a survey scanner every few seconds to get updated roid information so you know when to cycle your lasers does not cause the same demand on the server?
To be honest if every player mining was on the same node then yes it probably cause more lag, but no more so than the thousands of mission runners lagging out the mission hubs.
Tracking the amount of ore and popping a roid when its depleted rather then when a mining cycle completes would hardly put much strain on the server compared to all the other stuff going on.
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Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 10:03:00 -
[14]
So i take it from the lack of replies that the majority of players are not bothered
weather this gets fixed or not?
I would still be interested in getting a dev opinion on weather fixing the mining mechanics would be possible or if there is something im missing that would break the game?
What do you say?
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Barkel
Minmatar
Amesha Spentaz
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Posted - 2008.04.25 16:11:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Barkel on 25/04/2008 16:16:13
Originally by: Amateratsu
So i take it from the lack of replies that the majority of players are not bothered
weather this gets fixed or not?
I would still be interested in getting a dev opinion on weather fixing the mining mechanics would be possible or if there is something im missing that would break the game?
What do you say?
Speaking as someone who spends much of his time mining I don't see anything as broken. I use a survey scanner to time my strips and am rewarded by a boost to my efficiency. To put it another way I put more effort in and get more benefit as a result. Isn't that the way it *should* work?
Oh and nice hyperbole on the having to activate your scanner every few seconds thing. At most you might have to do it every minute or so. More likely every 2-3 minutes. Your mining. What else are you doing with your time?
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ethaet
This would be nice, but as it is you can just cycle your strip miners every 30 sec to 1 min if not afk, which does just about the same thing, without taking up a midslot like a scanner.
You'll kill Your crystals like 6 times faster doing this. Always use a scanner or gangmate with scanner to know how much ore in a rock.
--
Thanks CCP for cu |
zacuis
Great Big Research
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Posted - 2008.04.25 21:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: zacuis on 25/04/2008 21:03:02
what would be nice is if they added a skill that helped with this. say 10 % of wasted cycle time per level cut. so for instance cycle time is 120 seconds roid will only last 20 seconds so at level one u cut 10 seconds off the end of the cycle at level 5 u cut 50 seconds off the cycle time. still makes activaly watching the roid worth the time but gives something new to the mining skill set.
u could even make it so it only works if u have a roid scanner fitted. |
Titas Agor
TITANS OF PEACE
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Posted - 2008.04.26 00:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Amateratsu
With all the recent boosts to mining, the introduction of the Rorquel capital mining ship, The Orca planned brother to the Rorquel.
What do you mean by this? is there gonna be another new mining capital ship or something? couldn't find any info on it thru the search feature |
Amateratsu
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.04.26 09:23:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Amateratsu on 26/04/2008 09:23:53
Originally by: Titas Agor
Originally by: Amateratsu
With all the recent boosts to mining, the introduction of the Rorquel capital mining ship, The Orca planned brother to the Rorquel.
What do you mean by this? is there gonna be another new mining capital ship or something? couldn't find any info on it thru the search feature
Orca
enjoy
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Titas Agor
TITANS OF PEACE
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Posted - 2008.04.26 20:07:00 -
[20]
awsome thanks for the link, i really cant wait for that
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Elijas
Minmatar
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2008.04.27 11:40:00 -
[21]
I'v got the Rorqual, all the implants, Max skills, etc. and with all that - I still HATE that one part which does make no sense: Sitting on a dead roid. It would "seem" that there should be at least a drone or module and/or skill that could be mounted that would allow the lasers to be "linked" to the detection of the remaining ore content, auto-turning off the laser so you can rotate to the next. Now aways the cycle time is down to about 132 seconds, so I'm not wasting the full 3 minutes, but it's still wasting 2. Considering that mining is a multi-hour deal, that gets irritating.
Let's equate this to combat. Wouldn't you be irritated if your missles and guns kept firing after the target was dead - for 2 to 3 minutes? If the ship it dead, it blows up - so why not the roid the second it's "dead" too? Really does make no sense.
Now, if ya wanna talk about getting the Rorqual into high sec..... *grumble*
Freedom! |
Aravandor
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Posted - 2008.07.08 21:43:00 -
[22]
It amuses me to see so many people addressing this oversight in the mechanics as if it should be an issue of mining skill or the player paying enough attention while mining to correct for it. Look at it conceptually: you have a tool that transfers a rock in space to your cargo hold. It makes this transfer at a fixed rate. Why should this fixed rate change when there is very little rock left to transfer?
Elijas is right on target. If the equivalent were true of combat, everyone would be screaming bloody murder.
Everybody hates macro miners, I know, but with all the technology in eve, there is no logical reason that miners should have to manually shut off their lasers when there is no material left to be mined. I agree that fixing this would be a better gift to miners than new ships or modules.
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Theqwert125
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Posted - 2008.07.09 03:09:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Theqwert125 on 09/07/2008 03:10:44
Why not a skill that boosts 'mining efficiency' which would reduce crystal damage, cycle time, ore yield, and capacitor usage in even amounts.
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Gul Da'Mar
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Posted - 2008.07.09 18:18:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gul Da''Mar on 09/07/2008 18:18:23
Originally by: Theqwert125
Edited by: Theqwert125 on 09/07/2008 03:10:44
Why not a skill that boosts 'mining efficiency' which would reduce crystal damage, cycle time, ore yield, and capacitor usage in even amounts.
All this would do is move the goal post increasing your max potential mining yield but not actually fixing the undelying mechanics.
Whats the point in increasing yeald if you cannot achieve that max yield without manually babysitting....erm micro managing your lasers?
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Theqwert125
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Posted - 2008.07.09 18:32:00 -
[25]
The point was, that the skill would reduce the cycle time of your strip miners without actually changing any of the over time aspects (cap use, ore/min, etc) so, say at level 5 it reduces the cycle time of strip miners to 45 seconds, and there is 30 seconds of ore in the asteroid, you loose 15 seconds rather than 150 seconds without the skill.
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Gul Da'Mar
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Posted - 2008.07.09 18:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Theqwert125
The point was, that the skill would reduce the cycle time of your strip miners without actually changing any of the over time aspects (cap use, ore/min, etc) so, say at level 5 it reduces the cycle time of strip miners to 45 seconds, and there is 30 seconds of ore in the asteroid, you loose 15 seconds rather than 150 seconds without the skill.
Ah... i see where you're going... reducing the cycle time while keeping the yield, cap ect constant?
So instead of say 1200 units per 180 sec cycle the skill could reduce it to 400 units per 60 sec cycle.
Interesting idea.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.11 04:03:00 -
[27]
Personally:
You activate your strip miner, the cap required is taken out of your capacitor. The laser starts mining the roid.
But instead of the current "wait 3 minutes, get stuff" approach, the server instead deposits ore in your cargo in increments of one (or 5, or 10... maybe 1 m3 of the ore, or 1 unit if it is bigger than 1m3?), subtracting the total from the roid as well. This means that the ore is removed in a more fluid fashion... While it does multiply the server load a rather lot, it would seem to fix your problem.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.11 04:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ishall Marvoni
Personally, I think that if you're using strip miners, then you should also be using a survey scanner and checking that there's minerals there to be mining. Doesn't cost much to fit one, and it actually means you've got to think slightly more than just driving into an asteroid field, plonking yourself in the middle and targetting everything/setting your lasers off/putting what comes into your cargo into a can every few minutes.
On the one hand, you have a perfectly workable solution in the form of the scanner. On the other hand you have to sit there timing your lasers and micromanaging the entire system. It would be sorta neat if we got a readout of how many units of ore you've gotten during the cycle but I don't think it's a critical need.
Just like some people like being accountants I suppose some people like checking tables of (or memorizing) mineral units per m^3 and doing simple arithmatic operations.
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