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Mrs Lady	Posted - 2008.04.20 00:12:00 - [1] I did invention on a damage control to make a t2 bpo of it but its just a copy, is there any way i can make a t2 bpo ?
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.20 00:20:00 - [2] Nope, the only way to get T2 BPOs now is if an existing player sells theirs. Invention will always yield BPCs (when successful). -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Goddess Sekhmet Capital Construction Project	Posted - 2008.04.20 00:22:00 - [3] they should take em out of the game then if you cant get em.
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.04.20 00:23:00 - [4] Easier said than done, billions of ISK has changed hands over T2 BPO sales. The last one I have seen was a Hulk BPO which went for over 70billion. You can't just remove them like that. -- eve-guides.com All about POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, EVE Database + much more!!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.04.20 01:34:00 - [5] mods please lock and direct to the other thread.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.20 05:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 20/04/2008 05:25:10 Originally by: Braaage Easier said than done, billions of ISK has changed hands over T2 BPO sales. The last one I have seen was a Hulk BPO which went for over 70billion. You can't just remove them like that. Wouldn't be the first time CCP nerfed something with nothing but 'collectible' value a-la the WCS II stuff I linked to in the other thread. While there may or may not be issues with releasing T2 BPOs in the game (as per me and Lord Fitz' discussions in the other thread), their "collectible" value isn't really justification for not putting them in game. Not dragging the other thread argument in here, just making a point. Even the utility value of T2 BPOs is outstripped by Invention, making them worth far less than what they actually sell for in practical terms. Improve Market Competition!
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.04.20 10:55:00 - [7] You know what struck me as quite funny just now (while reading some other 'remote t2 BPO' threads)? Invention was put in to lower the price for T2 as the T2 BPO owners kept prices too high. At this moment, it's actually the T2 BPO owners that are keeping the prices low hoping to push some inventors out of the market.
shady trader	Posted - 2008.04.20 13:17:00 - [8] Invetion was a stick to beat the BPO owners with. It has forced down the price, but part of the problem with invetion is the same with some produces. The Minerals/data cores they mine/get from there R&D agents are free. As a result they sell the BPC below cost and think they are making a profit. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congrated by carebears for the actions.
Von Schnopp Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.04.20 16:10:00 - [9] Must be a helluva difference in struggle between manufacturing 10 Crows from a T2 BPO compared to the effort needed to produce the same number from a invented BPC right? Dunnon about money and materials but time has to be a major factor in this, any estimates? "Dying for your corp is just stupid, make those other bastards die for theirs instead"
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2008.04.20 18:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen At this moment, it's actually the T2 BPO owners that are keeping the prices low hoping to push some inventors out of the market. Read the QEN. At Jita 4-4 station ALONE the current Hulk sales (for example) are more than 10 times the production volume of all Hulk BPOs per day. Now please explain how you want to direct prices if your production volume is less than a tenth of a single station's trade volume. So much T2 FUD on these forums these days.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 06:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Braaage Easier said than done, billions of ISK has changed hands over T2 BPO sales. The last one I have seen was a Hulk BPO which went for over 70billion. You can't just remove them like that. Almost 7 years profit ! :o
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 06:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen At this moment, it's actually the T2 BPO owners that are keeping the prices low hoping to push some inventors out of the market. T2 BPO owners don't keep the price low, the only thing that keeps the price low is when the supply that the BPO owners produce is greater than the demand, in which case there is no profit for the BPO owners or inventors. If the BPO owners could raise the price they would, so they actually make a profit. For other items, like ships and popular mods, it's the inventors that set the price, not the BPO owners, they have no say in it at all, if they try and sell stuff at a lower price it will simply be bought and relisted at a higher price. There isn't any control over the market other than build costs, supply and demand. Traders handle the rest, not inventors or BPO owners.
Joe Umbra Legion	Posted - 2008.04.21 06:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Goddess Sekhmet they should take em out of the game then if you cant get em. Should they remove limited edition ships too? Pe0w
agrajag119 Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.04.21 06:58:00 - [14] The high price paid of t2 bpo's stems more from their convenience and reliability factors rather than any perceived ability to produce the items cheaper than invention. Since you don't have to rely on the invention production chain, your know exactly how much you need, and exactly when you'll need it. As a quasi-industrialist, I can appreciate the additional worth that extra stability would bring. In addition, the value in the bpo's lies in their permanence. I can't see any way that CCP would be persuaded to remove them, so their value is unlikely to ever diminish. Its a capital investment, similar to buying real estate, a safe place to park your isk.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Goddess Sekhmet they should take em out of the game then if you cant get em. Sure you can get them. Buy them from another player. I see T2 BPO's on contract and the sell forums all the time. -Grid, who is tired of these stupid nerf T2 BPO threads...
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:51:00 - [16] Originally by: shady trader Invetion was a stick to beat the BPO owners with. It has forced down the price, but part of the problem with invetion is the same with some produces. The Minerals/data cores they mine/get from there R&D agents are free. As a result they sell the BPC below cost and think they are making a profit. Actually, they ARE making a profit, esp if they are undercutting others. Now, it is open to debate if they could make more from selling the datacores/minerals, but that is a case of making _MORE_ profit. There is also a pretty big gap between 'what it would cost to buy the raw materials' and 'what the farmed materials could be sold for'. I would wager that many inventors price their final product somewhere between those two numbers.
Neslo Gallente No Angels Here	Posted - 2008.04.21 21:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Joe Should they remove limited edition ships too? I'm pretty tired of these "Tech 2 BPO" threads. I think this is a valid point though... since we can't get the limited edition ships, maybe they should be changed into something worthless that makes their work for them pointless. Some Researchers did missions to get more RPs... Some did none... both got bpos. I gotta say with price of bpos... if you want them, it's gonna cost you, but at least you'll have them. If you don't, then you can at least make the products by making bpcs through invention. Remember INVENTION was meant to help stimulate a dive in the tech 2 economy. For the most part this has happened. It's not meant to replace the bpos out there, but give the "average guy" a shot at Tech 2 selling. so STFU already about taking these bpos outta the game. It's really annoying to read every day a new "nerf tech 2 bpo" thread cuz you don't have it. There are have's and have not's in this game... and it's not like you can't be a have with the tech 2 bpo's... you are just gonna fork out the isk. ---------- Sig Begins ---------- ...This thread is soooo doing it wrong...
Caudex Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.21 21:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: shady trader Invetion was a stick to beat the BPO owners with. It has forced down the price, but part of the problem with invetion is the same with some produces. The Minerals/data cores they mine/get from there R&D agents are free. As a result they sell the BPC below cost and think they are making a profit. Actually, they ARE making a profit, esp if they are undercutting others. I don't follow.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.04.21 22:33:00 - [19] Quote: Quote: Actually, they ARE making a profit, esp if they are undercutting others. I don't follow. OK, they are making a "profit" but it's reduced from what it could be. Those aren't "free" datacores they buy with RP. It's that same logic that LP store users use. "I got those LP for free, so they cost me nothing". Quote: Quote: Should they remove limited edition ships too? I'm pretty tired of these "Tech 2 BPO" threads. I think this is a valid point though... since we can't get the limited edition ships, maybe they should be changed into something worthless that makes their work for them pointless. Personally it's the most ridiculous statement ever IMO. 1. How often do you see limited edition ships in combat? 2. How often do you see T2 BPOs get used in manufacturing? Titans cost more than most limited edition ships and they're always out being used in combat, so their cost issue isn't important. But faction issue ships? Psht. Do you see those out winning blob warfare? Do you see them out championing PvP gangs everywhere? They may have an advantage in 1v1 (woo, since all of EVE is almost exclusively blob warfare now), thus some extra cost is definately worthwhile, but their value is purely collectors. T2 BPOs are different. They get used. They get used a lot. Why? Because they are practical and useful. But tbh, not practical enough to warrant the ludicrous pricetags on them. Many, many, many T1 BPOs turn a better profit than T2 BPOs. I'd harp on as to why T2 BPO's should be seeded in some fashion related to invention, but go read another thread if you want the why. Improve Market Competition!
Solar Ra	Posted - 2008.04.22 11:48:00 - [20] interresting thing would be introduce lottery again but insted of bpo's it was max run bpc's with 0 me 0 pe
Caudex Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.22 13:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: Quote: Actually, they ARE making a profit, esp if they are undercutting others. I don't follow. OK, they are making a "profit" but it's reduced from what it could be. Those aren't "free" datacores they buy with RP. It's that same logic that LP store users use. "I got those LP for free, so they cost me nothing". Quote: Quote: Should they remove limited edition ships too? I'm pretty tired of these "Tech 2 BPO" threads. I think this is a valid point though... since we can't get the limited edition ships, maybe they should be changed into something worthless that makes their work for them pointless. Personally it's the most ridiculous statement ever IMO. 1. How often do you see limited edition ships in combat? 2. How often do you see T2 BPOs get used in manufacturing? Titans cost more than most limited edition ships and they're always out being used in combat, so their cost issue isn't important. But faction issue ships? Psht. Do you see those out winning blob warfare? Do you see them out championing PvP gangs everywhere? They may have an advantage in 1v1 (woo, since all of EVE is almost exclusively blob warfare now), thus some extra cost is definately worthwhile, but their value is purely collectors. T2 BPOs are different. They get used. They get used a lot. Why? Because they are practical and useful. But tbh, not practical enough to warrant the ludicrous pricetags on them. Many, many, many T1 BPOs turn a better profit than T2 BPOs. I'd harp on as to why T2 BPO's should be seeded in some fashion related to invention, but go read another thread if you want the why.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.04.22 17:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Caudex If you are selling a finished product less than the market value of the parts, you are losing money with every transaction. It is the difference between, say, for example: Cash $500 ------ Sales ----- $500 Inventory ---- $300 CGS $300 ---- Net income: $200 And Cash $500 ------ Sales ----- $500 Inventory ---- $600 CGS $600 ---- Net Income: <$100> or "I am an idiot" Expense. As your manufacturing assets go down faster than your cash goes up, you lose money and are not making "profit" at all. This only really applies of you either (a) buy your raw materials or (b) have a cost associated with obtaining them. Outside initial investment neither mining nor datacore farming have a cost associated with getting them, only 'opportunity cost' (which is zero for datacores). You are not 'loosing' money, you are simply making less. It undervalues the builder's own worth in terms of time but that is about it. Now, a second bit. Say you have a widget that requires 100ISk worth of material to build (assuming the ISK is the sell price of the material, not the buy price which would be higher)... builder A and builder B both go out and mine the rocks and incur no cost beyond the time spent. Both builders make the item incurring building costs and put them up for sale incurring sales tax. Builder A puts the item up for 90ISK, Builder B puts it up for 110ISK. Builder A sells that item quickly, freeing up a sell order for something else (perhaps more of the same widget). Builder B doesn't sell any until Builder A is out of widgets. Worst case Builder A fills the market and Builder B needs to reprocess and sell the raw materials in order to make back the investment. Now, Builder A COULD have sold the raw materials for 100ISK and be done with it, but at the end of the transaction is still 90ISK in the black. It is a smaller amount but it is still a net profit. I do see what you mean when you talk about assets and their liquid value, but that value is virtual/transitional and does not represent actual cash flow. It should also be noted that this discussion can quickly go down a depressing slippery slope within a game since the entire 'minerals aren't free!' rant is based off the idea that if you are not maximizing your ISK/hour then you are 'loosing' which is simply not true. If someone wants to invent because they find it fun and they manage to sell their results at a net profit then they are still doing good. Not as good as someone who has their ISK/hour worked out and maximizes so they are only doing exactly what nets the most point but who cares. If we all did that then everyone in the game would either be a hulk miner or a CNR mission runner and nothing else.
Strom Kryos Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.23 02:17:00 - [23] your missing the whole point say your inventing a tII cruiser sell at avg 85 mil currently inventing a 1 9 run bpc any other decryptor not worth useing figure 1-8 ration 80 mil worth decryptor 64 mil worth datacore total 144 then theres the cost to build about 42 mil per tII ship t1 cruiser plus building tech parts 9 runs 378 mil total spent 522 mil total return 765 mil total profit 243/9 27 mil per ship now thats with alot of running around waiting for a succussful invention and finally building which you want to do 1 at a time thanks how waste currently applies to production now a tII bpo holder can spit these out every 4 hours at about 30 mil per ship profit of 55 mil Needless to say tII bpo holders have the ability to wipe the floor with inventors because 80% of the current inventors think they are only spending the end cost of about 37 mil to build a ship and the bpo holders could drop the prices down to 50 mil and really clean out the lot of inventors that dont think the mineral decryptor and datacores dont need to be added into the overhead. I really wish they would just to get those out of inventing that are blind to what they are really doing to the market when they flood it only to make a measly 1-200 mil for a couple weeks worth of work. Really dissapointing when you think of the weeks of skill points wasted for those that know how to do the math.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.23 02:25:00 - [24] Quote: now a tII bpo holder can spit these out every 4 hours at about 30 mil per ship profit of 55 mil Base build time on a T2 cruiser is 1 day 20 hours 26 minutes. 1 day 11hours with skills. So I have no idea where you get '4 hours' from but it's not right. They can spit out 4-5 per week. An inventor can spit out as many as they have build slots for though. If you look at the QEN, hulks specifically are mentioned, the amount being built before invention was a tiny fraction of what is now, they then cost 500mil each. Quote: the bpo holders could drop the prices down to 50 mil No, they couldn't because immediately all their ships would be bought up by traders and sold for just above the invention cost. Guaranteed profit on any ship where the demand is greater than the BPO supply (most of them).
Strom Kryos Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.23 02:36:00 - [25] to add to that even further.. lets say the tII bpo holder just makes bpcs to sell say 1 run for 30 mil now the 1d10t inventor can keep inventing with his view on no overhead or wise up and say .. hmm 9 runs for 270 mil + I sell the decryptors and datacores instead of waste them.. 144 mil profit and build of the better me bpcs and sell the mins wasted 135 mil profit so thats 279 mil profit that Im flushing down the toilet trying to invent and use low me bpcs because I FLOOD the market WOW I never realized flooding the market dropped the price so low and I was wasteing weeks of work just to do that and I could make the same ammount of isk I was makeing with inventing within a day or say and had fun shooting noobs instead.. that would have been such a better return for my months of skill training. All this is a moot point as those in 0.0 will soon bypass the 1d10t inventors as they have instant access to the base components for tII production and only those in empire which have no real need for tII will by from the 1d10t inventors :P
Strom Kryos Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.23 02:42:00 - [26] well the build time might be off I quit bothering when the last good inventing went out with battlecruisers. Still the inventor would be out due to other buying and reselling lower than 85 mil .. it may take a few weeks of hoarding bpcs/ships but the end result would devastate most would be inventors.. turn the table and flood the market on them.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.23 03:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Strom Kryos well the build time might be off I quit bothering when the last good inventing went out with battlecruisers. Still the inventor would be out due to other buying and reselling lower than 85 mil .. it may take a few weeks of hoarding bpcs/ships but the end result would devastate most would be inventors.. turn the table and flood the market on them. Sorry you're proposing that BPO owners would buy ships and sell them for a lower price ? This is nuts, do you have any idea how many inventors there are ? Thousands, who can all switch to a product within short order of noticing a price spike. Not to mention traders would just re-buy the cheaper ship and put it up higher again. This simply does not work, the only thing that sets the price reliably is the invented cost. BPO owners make a fraction of the ships inventors make, look at the QEN and CCP pretty much spell this out for you with graphs and everything. Originally by: Strom Kryos to add to that even further.. lets say the tII bpo holder just makes bpcs to sell say 1 run for 30 mil It takes twice as long to make a copy as make a ship. 2 days 20 hours (with max skills), vs 1 day 10 hours to build (with max skills and the 5% build speed implant). So why on earth would they make a BPC for 30mil profit when instead they could make 2 ships for 30mil profit each ? Also, at that rate it would be 90mil profit / week for a BPO that probably is worth 60billion isk +. So it would take them 13 years to start making a profit over just selling the BPO..... Just crazy.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.23 03:53:00 - [28] Basically, for any product where the amount of demand is greater than the BPO supply, the price is going to be around the invention cost, it will go up and down, but eventually that is where it will settle. Just like T1, anyone can do it so that's where the price will end up. It may be a little higher to compensate for the varied success rates have, that means the ones getting 'lucky' will be making extra profit, and the ones that are unlucky will be making a loss. The ONLY place where the BPO owners have anything to do with the price is when between them they are producing more supply than the market demands, in which case the price will be very close to the BPO build cost, and they won't be making any money either. So the real places BPO owners make money, is the places that have the higest variations between BPO build cost and invention build cost. Probably battlecruisers being the biggest BPO owner profit maker. But keep in mind these BPO owners do not affect inventor profits AT ALL, the cost of that ship on the market is going to be close to the invention cost, the fact that a BPO exists doesn't affect that. The inventors on the other hand ARE affecting the BPO owners profits, the less it costs to invent, the less the BPO owners profits.
Strom Kryos Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.23 05:39:00 - [29] heh First this was more in response to those who think the tII bpo holders run the market. Secondly you can take a 1 month noob and make as much in 4-5 hours and you can with your average skilled inventor in 2-3 weeks. Your average 1d10t inventor lives paycheck to paycheck because they dont get the full value of their work thus price it lower and dont get the full return for its actual worth. And lastly it was the 1d10t inventors that didnt include the full cost/value of inventing/building that drove down the market to barely profitable margins for inventors. (just like you can sell salvaged items and get more isk than you can building rigs from them) NOT the tII bpo owners. For inventors even buying the adv materials at a lower price doesnt help as you can just resale it and make more isk than you can useing it in inventing. Which brings me back to my previous statement about 0.0. The majority of tII is used lost and replaced only to be sent back to 0.0. Only a matter of time before 0.0 corps/alliance take inventing completely out of empire inventors hands, leaveing them inventing for a much smaller group of buyers. But dont take my word on it.. watch and learn.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.23 06:53:00 - [30] The isk in invention is all in finding a product that has a lack of supply, typically the easiest of these to spot is when new T2 items are introduced (T2 MLU's and the new T2 ships have made inventors billions following patch days). - I know, they made ME billions. With each coming patch though, the amount of time following a patch you could make a profit has dropped dramatically. The latest patch, in retrospect, you would have made more selling T2 components and things, and thousands of inventors given months of warning descended onto the new ships. With thing Heavy Dictors and EWar frigates there were some good profits to be made for a while, with the new BS's on the other hand, their profits died up incredibly quickly, the demand was not there and the supply began absolutely pouring in, the price of advanced materials was dropping as was their build costs. So what you saw was panic selling. People sold for less than it cost THEM to build it, because if they were to leave it a week, it would cost even less again to build it. Selling for a small loss > selling for a large loss. So there were people out there, smart people, selling for a loss on their costs. In short the only way to make isk inventing is to find a product selling for higher above the invention cost than most, these do happen, and you do make a profit, but only until enough other people notice the same product, then the profit goes away and you need to find another. Basically invention is a profession and not something you can just do on the side. If you don't keep track of market cost vs invented build cost you will lose money.

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