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BACON: Never be surprised again (relaunch)

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 08:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 08:06:25 This tool has no practical application whatsoever other than to allow you to not pay attention to the game in which you are playing.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 08:14:00 - [2] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 08:15:43 Posting my opinion: Even though BACON (the new real-time intel-gathering 3rd party app from a Hydra Alliance corp) is not a violation of the EULA, it breaks the spirit of the game. There are reasons that safeties have been put in place to prevent this sort of thing. The fact these guys have found a workaround to a system set in place to prevent people from doing this sort of thing frustrates me. Not because I didn't do it, but because it is available to players. First let me say this: I have local open 23/7. Everyone has access to it and I choose to leave it open. That is personal choice. If I downloaded this program and (this is a stretch here) I was mining in a lowsec belt with eve minimized (lol), I could be alerted to gtfo without even paying attention. But the root of the issue still stands. It takes away from the fact that EVE is a game where you need to focus and be attentive to play. If we allow this sort of thing to come into regular play what will be next? Some sort of combat tool to calculate the enemies' dps and say "you are going to explode in X number of seconds at this rate" or some other hogwash? CCP this needs to be stopped right now before more plans move further to develop more around this client/user loophole. Even though the data is accessed locally and does not involve the client, it reports realtime information that the client is delivering to you anyway. That's where the spirit of the game is broken and needs to be fixed. Finally, they have really touted themselves as being the saviors of not-paying-attention gameplay: Originally by: Cesar Malari BACON's performance is, quite simply, real time. You can rely on BACON to let you know when someone enters the system you are in. If you happen to be in a different conversation window than Local, you still are alerted to system entries. If you happen to be quickly checking a forum, or momentarily distracted from EVE û BACON will save your ship. AKA "I don't have to actually be paying attention to EVE, my ship will be safe!" CCP, you yourselves have said hundreds of times that you want EVE to be an "at-keyboard experience." By allowing this sort of software (not this software per se, but this SORT of software) you are reneging your statements to your clients and consumers who put faith in you to keep this stuff out of the game. Come on CCP. Keep yourselves in check. Thanks.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 08:32:00 - [3] I actually have another incredibly valid point here: Okay check it. About 2 hours ago, one of my Mackinaw pilots was in lowsec mining in a belt. I was docked in station in the same system. Some guy with 5.1 sec was in the system (he was neutral) and about 4 blues were in local with us. The mackinaw pilot had a drake alt defending. Anyway I say "hey there's a neutral in local, you need to be on high alert" and he said "nah 5.1 sec, I'm ok." I swear to God, 20 seconds later he's being blown up by a pilgrim. If he would have heard a sound I would bet you MONEY he would have docked. People are programmable in the fact that if you are conditioned by a sound you will respond a certain way. For example, hearing "Your security status has been lowered" creates a sense of euphoria, and "you are unable to warp because you are warp scrambled" creates a sense of anxiety. Adding a beep will cause people to act before they think. That is not where I want this game to go.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 09:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Siddy This tool is no problem, local chat is. Don't be a troll. This is not about local. This is about what they say on their website (read this carefully): Originally by: Bacon Website You become aware of hostiles entering your current system through auditory means without having to keep an eye on local, all in REAL TIME. CCP did not design their game so you don't have to pay attention. Therefore this is a mod. Mods are not allowed by CCP.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 09:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Chribba And imo the application kinda uses the logServer in a way that was not intended, logServer was created to dump logs of errors/bugs so CCP can improve the game. BACON simply uses it to grab intel. So imo not really the reason why logServer exists. Chribba just hit the nail on the head in line with what I was saying about "it breaks the spirit of the game." I was never talking about PVP or PVE or whatever, I was talking about taking things out of context and using them for something else. Log files are not for intel. They are for logging.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 09:45:00 - [6] I'll do it this way. And I don't want to say it but ugh, this is an amplification of my last week of life. Recently, EVE has turned into a headache. Log in, do corp maintenance, talk with corp members, herd the corp members to do something, log out. Next day, repeat. For the past week I have been looking for some variety. I have been trying to find another game to fill my "I don't want to play EVE right now" feelings. And after reading through forum after forum from different MMOs, I realize they're nowhere near the level of excellence that EVE has reached. Cesar and your corp, please stop syndicating this software. Please. I am asking you because I want the community to not be torn apart by another issue or thing that is causing disparity in the people. If anything, I want the community of EVE to be harmonious and together on most things. Sure we have differing opinions, but this one is a little different. Rather than being something that CCP did, this is something you did. And as a software/graphic designer myself I applaud you for finding this way to use the software dumps and logs to your advantage. And I also applaud you for bringing it to the community as a whole. However, given the current reception and fact that it has the potential to divide EVE over something that has been seemingly argued over for years, I am asking you to discontinue it. If this software you have created brings around the demise of local, that makes me sad. I am asking you to not directly interfere with the normal daily operations of the game and let CCP handle it. Please show your responsibility to the players of this game and take it down. I'm saying this from my heart. I really am. I don't want to yell or flame or troll or get mean. I just don't want this to happen to this game. :( <3
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 10:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:21:47 Originally by: Pohbis Holy whining Batman! You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already? Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered? NO. I am not going to succumb to the "local" problem when in fact this has nothing to do with local. It has to do with LOGGING. I mentioned it earlier and I can mention it now. This sort of stuff can be used to read out damage reports coming in real time and possibly tell you how long you are going to have left based on the reports the logs show. This has absolutely nothing to do with local and those that bring it up are direct proponents of the motive that this software has brought forth whether it be indirect or hostile. Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it. Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it! cries Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE :((((((
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 10:31:00 - [8] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10 Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted.... That's all that needs to be done! I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it. The coin works on both sides, yet we see EVE working at peak efficiency. PVP happens, carebears still get their peace in highsec and large alliance wars are duked out... everything is peachy. EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME. You can make the orange look like an apple but the orange will never taste like an apple. (Read that as though we can have the appearance of what it would be like in real life the experience will never be exactly as it would be in real life.) :( I'm seriously hurt over this.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 11:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Durzel I must admit also I find it quite interesting that most of the resistance seems to be from those who would be most affected by it (e.g. pirates). Part of me wonders whether this is genuine concern about the direction of the game, fear that their tactics (cheap?) will become less effective, or jealousy/anger that other people will have a tool (BACON) that they already have a comparable version of themselves - or a combination of the above. Tactics and the way the game is are directly related to each other. If you remove a pirate's ability to kill people, you remove piracy from the game. If you remove piracy from EVE, you are forced to declare war. And if you are forced to declare war, EVE loses its risk factor, and low-sec becomes "safe". :(
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 11:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Durzel Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field... Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters. Awesome. And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not. I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances? o\ That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone. Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way. That's what should be done, then we can be over with this. I hope this is gone by Monday.

Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 12:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Dr Totenkopf lol! the whine in this thread is great! Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die" All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp... You're one to talk. looks at your corp ticker
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.20 13:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Lisento Slaven What else can a player monitor through the logserver? Question of the year.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.21 04:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Altaree Is it just me or does it seem that most of those complaining are just upset that their personal apps just got outted? I think people are more upset that they are losing their private advantage. Good job Hydra for making this information available to more than a select few. I don't have one of these apps. I am posting my contempt for it because I do not like the message that it brings to the entire playerbase of EVE. That message is this: "It is okay to have your pants down in space. Because we have something that will give you time to pull them up without you having to actually think." It removes the entire element of using your brain from EVE; something that EVE has over every other MMO out there. EVE is not a grind (though to some it can be.) Relatively however it is incredibly diverse with much to do and the dynamic state of the game is threatened by this software.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.21 22:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Reuser Likewise, this is not a HYDRA app. This is a GUNFLEET LOGISTICS app that HYDRA got to beta for a very brief time before launch. They did a great job, and spotted bugs and suggested improvements. And suggested we have CCP clarify some issues for us. Which CCP did. Nobody cares. To us, you are Hydra. Gunfleet Logistics to us is honestly some tool of a corp hiding behind an alliance and that's the fact. Additionally, the fact that you're in Hydra does not assist your release. Also, you opted not to show your alliance tags initially, which makes me skeptical as to your motives. Your corp is not going to receive any praise from this, believe me. The guy that made it is, but stop representing it as "A Gunfleet Logistics Release" because nobody gives a crap. Sorry.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.21 23:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Cerulean Fire Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters. Awesome. You know, just because every kid in class is cheating on the test doesn't mean that you have to, as well. Interesting that you imply that even though you believe this program is ruining EVE, you'll still use it... Just a thought. What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs. I'm not going to use it.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.22 01:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Greekil Originally by: Siigari Kitawa What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs. I'm not going to use it. Just like you didn't use the goon portrait hack to help your corp analyze intel from local faster? Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it? Don't you dare come here and tell me that I am saying one thing and doing another. That was over a year ago, and the only reason you've posted in this thread is to talk crap about me.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.22 01:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it? Yep, declared against the EULA because it did its work from INSIDE the game client. Which Bacon doesn't do. True, but it access game files directly from the client to interact with the user in real time. It walks the line, and because CCP has not yet come forward with a firm yes or no, this issue is boiling. Also, people need to stop trolling individuals. It's immature and not called for. I came here to post about something I feel is realllllly walking the line in terms of game "legality" and I am posting about it. I have not once talked down to any of you or attempted to belittle you in any way. I do not single people out to point out their shortcomings or past deeds. 1) This is not a political campaign 2) I only have contempt for the software, not the people 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.22 01:49:00 - [18] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 22/04/2008 01:49:14 Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I can't show you where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is ... a violation of the EULA and/or TOS... Fixed that for you. Really, get out of the thread. You have no reason to post here other than to attempt to troll me. I don't know if you noticed, but there are quite a few people up in arms over this. None of you people (Gemini Sun) have added any constructive conversation to this thread so please get out -- unless you actually have something constructive to add to this discussion.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.22 22:07:00 - [19] Excellent.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.30 09:06:00 - [20] Reuser's comments are starting to diverge from what this thread is really about. I think this thread has run its course, and it needs to be locked.

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