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Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate
BattleStar Alliance
23
   |
Posted - 2012.02.29 04:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I find this bonus somewhat ridiculous. It works excellent with Large turrtes since their base range is around 50km. But making it work on 25km med rails or haven forbid <10km blasters... Not so I guess. Thus we have a bonus that doesn't contribute much or at all which gimps a ship in general.
What your opinion on this issue? |
Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 05:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Range bonuses let you chamber more powerful, shorter ranged ammunition and deal more damage at the same ranges as a weapon without a range bonus. It also makes going down to smaller caliber guns less of a trade off, since range bonused ship with lighter guns will still hit out to the same ranges as a non-bonused ship with heavier guns, and with better tracking too. Though diminished, these benefits are still in play when fielding blasters and are further magnified by fitting range extending modules. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo
NEM3SIS.
161
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 05:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you look solely at the Optimals, a Ferox with a 25% bonus to Optimal on blasters has 3.38km optimal with Neutron II's and Antimatter M. A brutix with the same guns has 2.25km Optimal.
What this realistically means is that the Ferox, while doing less upfront EFT warrior DPS, can project that DPS 50% farther without losing it to falloff than the Brutix without having to sacrifice a magstab for a TE.
This bonus to Optimal expands considerably if you actually do swap magstabs for TE's; a Ferox with 2 TE's and 1 magstab gets an Optimal of 4.39km whereas a gank Brutix with the same 3 lowslot weapon upgrades has an Optimal of 2.92km. The Ferox gets nearly double.
Why does this matter? Well, if you load Null, things get wild for the Ferox. Optimal goes to 12.3km + 14.3km falloff, whereas for the Brutix it is stuck at 8.9km + 14.3 falloff. While both can fight in overheated web range and kite with MWD's (c. 11-13km), the Ferox doesn't lose a single soupcon of DPS due to falloff.
Alternatively the Ferox can kite at 25km in OH dissy range and do DPS but the Brutix has to stay within 21km. That's the difference between heavy neuts monstering you or not.
The key in flying Caldari blaster boats is to work with this range bonus, not beat your head against the wall at 1km within optimals. Properly nanoed up Feroxes can be very, very effective. Pity everyone flies them like a Drake.
The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man.
Sun Tzu
@trinketsfriend on twatter
|
Andrea Griffin
144
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 05:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
What Salo said. The range bonus is wonderful, especially when you're up against a kiting opponent.
Also, sniping out to 100km with an assault frigate is hilarious (even if the damage is, ah, not the best).
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Belthazor4011
Da Watchers
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 09:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Being in range/optimal adds applied DPS. Caldari hybrid boats can indeed be very handy because of this as mentioned.
Add that to the fact that a cormorant can fire a 100km with some actual DPS for the dessie/frigate level (250 DPS or so)
And that a Naga can easily reach the game fire limit of 250km because of its bonus with again very decent DPS (almost 600 or so)
And a Rokh or Naga with Blasters shoots insanely far for Blasters. As already posted above with the Brutix/Ferox the difference gets even more impressive with large Blasters.
There really is something to the range bonus if you ask me. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
34
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 13:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
its a 10% bonus per level. The range bonus is pretty negligible when using antimatter. In Trinket's first example, the brutix will still outdamage the ferox per/turret at 3.38km because the brutix is still at the very beginning of its falloff. Add in that the brutix has a 7th turret and also more likely to be using neutrons vs the ferox's ions, and the brutix is superior in this situation (plus drones AND an extra lowslot). This is not surprising, and isn't necessarily a bad mark against the ferox, a ship that I happen to like.
Things get a little better for the ferox in the comparison using void, because void has higher optimal than antimatter, as well as a penalty to falloff, the main thing that determines the brutix's damage projection.
The ferox's optimal bonus does shine with Null charges. At this point you can apply dps anywhere within about 40km as soon as you lock, all with the nice tracking of blasters. The brutix can do this too but has much poorer projection in this range, at which point its probably just as effective to switch to antimatter and charge the opponent.
Ultimately, maybe this makes the ferox more viable with afterburner + blasters, but i haven't tried it. The ferox gets a much larger EHP buffer as well. In a single scram shield configuration, the brutix is able to get a respectable 45k + EHP, remain moderately agile, and pump out over 900 DPS without breaking a sweat. Unless you need a bait ship, the brutix has better broad applicability, because it will out damage any other tier1/tier2 BC, while being inexpensive and able to take hits long enough to be useful.
As for the caldari optimal bonus being useless in many situations, well gallente can say the same about our local armor rep bonus. The caldari resistance bonus is amazing however, so don't feel too sad. |
Jeremy Ironforge
White syndicate
BattleStar Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 06:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
So it's all about how you use them, right?
While we're at it can someone give me a good kitting Ferox fit? |
Kitt JT
Crimson Empire.
Nulli Secunda
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.01 07:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yeah, the range bonus is actually nice. Blaster rokh is fuckin awesome.
A lot of people swear by a beagle, and i personally love the naga.
The thing about the ferox, is that if you're doing small gang pvp, a lot of ppl don't really take it seriously, so it will be nice and easy for you to get fights!
Here's a pro ferox setup. Its not mine, but it works. Plug it into eft and be amazed
And yes, i know. split weapon systems. Get over it.
[Ferox, adf]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5
Great for up close and personal.
Thing about "kiting" in it is that you can't do it in the ferox out to 20k and still put out reasonable dps.
EDIT: Depending on your skills/implants, you might be able to swap for the extra 2 ions. |
Wacktopia
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
199
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jeremy Ironforge wrote:I find this bonus somewhat ridiculous. It works excellent with Large turrtes since their base range is around 50km. But making it work on 25km med rails or haven forbid <10km blasters... Not so I guess. Thus we have a bonus that doesn't contribute much or at all which gimps a ship in general.
What your opinion on this issue?
I think you should take a look into the new Null stats.
Vote Alekseyev Karrde for CSM7. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67574
Get War Decs, Sov, Low Sec that works.-á |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 19:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
The only hybrid Caldari i've flow are the harpy (in both snarpy and blarpy configs). A sniper harpy (snarpy) is a great ship for frig gangs. I'm currently on a kick with the Eagle in nano-LR gangs.
[Eagle, whofliesaneagle]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Sensor Booster II,Scan Resolution // or range script as needed
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Salvager I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Pros:
It's cheap
Very flexible DPS (optimals from 20KM to 150 with T2 ammos, and everything inbetween)
Good Alpha, Good DPS
Very high resists (hi scimi friends)
Cons
Not as much alpha as a muninn
Slower than most nano cruisers (just overheat a lot to compensate)
You need to carry several different types of ammo (both t2 types, antimatter, iridium, and uranium are what I use)
In short, it's pretty much the same alpha/dps as a sniper diemost with a better tank and less speed. Been flying this fit for about 3months, lost one so far out of maybe 10 uses. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 20:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:
Pros:
It's cheap
Very flexible DPS (optimals from 20KM to 150 with T2 ammos, and everything inbetween)
Good Alpha, Good DPS
Very high resists (hi scimi friends)
You are still talking about the eagle, right? |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 22:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Indeterminacy wrote:
Pros:
It's cheap
Very flexible DPS (optimals from 20KM to 150 with T2 ammos, and everything inbetween)
Good Alpha, Good DPS
Very high resists (hi scimi friends)
You are still talking about the eagle, right?
Yes, it's "good"....not very good, and not great. But as I said, it's on par with a sniper fit diemost. So to sum it up, it's viable...certainly not the best for this role...but who wants to fly the same ship (ie a muninn) all the time? |
OfBalance
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 22:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:OfBalance wrote:Indeterminacy wrote:
Pros:
It's cheap
Very flexible DPS (optimals from 20KM to 150 with T2 ammos, and everything inbetween)
Good Alpha, Good DPS
Very high resists (hi scimi friends)
You are still talking about the eagle, right? Yes, it's "good"....not very good, and not great. But as I said, it's on par with a sniper fit diemost. So to sum it up, it's viable...certainly not the best for this role...but who wants to fly the same ship (ie a muninn) all the time?
No dispute from me, it is "viable." And certainly anyone who can fly one is free to do so at their whim. I was just wanting to know if you knew something I did not. As far as I am aware the eagle has the lowest alpha and dps of the hac crowd.
Taking _extreme_ range into account, of course it does out-alpha/dps things that other targets simply cannot reach. Perhaps that is what you meant? |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 22:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't know the stats on a sniper zealot of the top of my head in terms of dps/alpha. I do know the Eagle's dps/alpha is marginally lower (5%) than a diemost. A well tanked sniper cerb does 50 more dps with about double the alpha but....delayed DPS is a big problem against anything less than battleships (ie you basically do no damage unless you shoot only secondary targets).
What I mean is that post hybrid buff I think an Eagle should be considered respectable even at typical (non-extreme) ranges particularly given the cost of the ship compared to others in the same role. Last time I checked it was about 20% cheaper to buy and fit a hull than the others. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin.
Nulli Secunda
332
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 22:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:But as I said, it's on par with a sniper fit diemost.
"It's just as good as this other bad ship!"
Quote:but who wants to fly the same ship (ie a muninn) all the time?
Hi hello |
OfBalance
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 22:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:
What I mean is that post hybrid buff I think an Eagle should be considered respectable even at typical (non-extreme) ranges particularly given the cost of the ship compared to others in the same role.
Not terribly convinced of this myself, but ok. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
898
|
Posted - 2012.03.02 23:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:If you look solely at the Optimals, a Ferox with a 25% bonus to Optimal on blasters has 3.38km optimal with Neutron II's and Antimatter M. A brutix with the same guns has 2.25km Optimal.
What this realistically means is that the Ferox, while doing less upfront EFT warrior DPS, can project that DPS 50% farther without losing it to falloff than the Brutix without having to sacrifice a magstab for a TE.
This bonus to Optimal expands considerably if you actually do swap magstabs for TE's; a Ferox with 2 TE's and 1 magstab gets an Optimal of 4.39km whereas a gank Brutix with the same 3 lowslot weapon upgrades has an Optimal of 2.92km. The Ferox gets nearly double.
Why does this matter? Well, if you load Null, things get wild for the Ferox. Optimal goes to 12.3km + 14.3km falloff, whereas for the Brutix it is stuck at 8.9km + 14.3 falloff. While both can fight in overheated web range and kite with MWD's (c. 11-13km), the Ferox doesn't lose a single soupcon of DPS due to falloff.
Alternatively the Ferox can kite at 25km in OH dissy range and do DPS but the Brutix has to stay within 21km. That's the difference between heavy neuts monstering you or not.
The key in flying Caldari blaster boats is to work with this range bonus, not beat your head against the wall at 1km within optimals. Properly nanoed up Feroxes can be very, very effective. Pity everyone flies them like a Drake.
People underestimate optimal bonuses with Void and Null. The bonus combined with null means that your relative range is only 25% further but you cover the absolute range tackle mods work significantly better.
-Liang
Ed: I have to admit that I thought the Caldari optimal bonus was 10%, not 5%. But I don't fly the Ferox so often so I may be wrong... and I frankly don't have time to go look it up. :(
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
157
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 00:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Optimal bonuses are huge - generally 10%/level (including on the Ferox, just checked). On rails this gives you absurd range, and on blasters it lets you keep the facemelting damage and epic tracking without having to deal with the awful range that has traditionally been the weakness of blasters.
An ion blaster harpy with Null can hit out comfortably to 8+km |
OfBalance
Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 01:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
No disputing the optimal bonus works out great on some ships, but trying to extrapolate that into optimal bonuses are huge in general doesn't really fit. The optimal bonus hybrid ships are a mixed bag. The harpy wasn't terrible pre-buff, no suprise that it is OP now. The eagle, otoh, was terrible and is still terrible. If the ship with not one, but two range bonuses is terrible, that doesn't say much for your thesis statement. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
898
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 04:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:No disputing the optimal bonus works out great on some ships, but trying to extrapolate that into optimal bonuses are huge in general doesn't really fit. The optimal bonus hybrid ships are a mixed bag. The harpy wasn't terrible pre-buff, no suprise that it is OP now. The eagle, otoh, was terrible and is still terrible. If the ship with not one, but two range bonuses is terrible, that doesn't say much for your thesis statement.
Pretty sure the Harpy has 2 optimal bonuses? ;-) That said, give the Eagle a 25m^3 drone bay and unbrick it and it'd be ******* pimp.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
OfBalance
Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 05:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:OfBalance wrote:No disputing the optimal bonus works out great on some ships, but trying to extrapolate that into optimal bonuses are huge in general doesn't really fit. The optimal bonus hybrid ships are a mixed bag. The harpy wasn't terrible pre-buff, no suprise that it is OP now. The eagle, otoh, was terrible and is still terrible. If the ship with not one, but two range bonuses is terrible, that doesn't say much for your thesis statement. Pretty sure the Harpy has 2 optimal bonuses? ;-) That said, give the Eagle a 25m^3 drone bay and unbrick it and it'd be ******* pimp. -Liang
Can't think tonight, have the dumb.
Anyhow, definitely in support of those suggestions. |
Manar Detri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 20:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
the funny thing bout eagle is that you'll do pretty much same dmg at point max range as a vagabond but the second the range gets closer you'll start winning in dps ) so yes, give eagle 25 cubes of drone space & bandwidth |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 21:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Indeterminacy wrote:But as I said, it's on par with a sniper fit diemost. "It's just as good as this other bad ship!" Quote:but who wants to fly the same ship (ie a muninn) all the time? Hi hello
Says the guys who bridged on us in arty canes last night 
Was decent fight yeah?
I had loads of fun, nearly burned out the mids and got damned low on cap IN MAH EAGLE kiting...great fun. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin.
Nulli Secunda
333
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 22:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:
Was decent fight yeah?
if you say so v0v
I don't consider jumping into equal numbers and only getting 2x the kills as a "decent" outcome. |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 22:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
So that's how it's gonna be between us?
btw, we might be talking about different fights cuz....
Kills:28
Losses:30
Damage done (ISK):2.27B - 2266.93M
Damage received (ISK):2.91B - 2910.56M |
OfBalance
Caldari State
85
|
Posted - 2012.03.03 22:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Eagle-cats m8. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin.
Nulli Secunda
333
|
Posted - 2012.03.04 00:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote:
btw, we might be talking about different fights cuz...
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?br=http%3A%2F%2Feve-kill.net%2F%3Fa%3Dkill_related%26kll_id%3D12619411&Nulli_Tertius=blue&Nulli_Secunda=blue&GIANTSBANE_=red&Initiative_Mercenaries=red&Vera_Cruz_Alliance=blue&The_Initiative_=red&BricK_sQuAD_=red&F_RCEFUL_ENTRY=red#assign
Numbers are hard.
My bad on kills, only a third more. Like I said, it's a pretty disappointing performance (for me personally). Then again, I wasn't FCing v0v. If you like that kind of barroom brawl, more power to you.
Ofc, none of this proves the Eagle to actually be good (since it isn't). It just proves that the side with a coherent fleet composition won out over "bring whateva shields, yo SO RANDUM XD" in spite of a 2 to 1 logistics advantage. You can argue for an Eagle because:
-you don't have any other cruiser V trained
-people think it's worthless and that gets you more fights
-it's something different
-you like the way it looks
Just don't come here claiming, "Eagle is just as good of a HAC as any other" because it's not. Especially not with the introduction of tier 3s which took away it's niche completely (range). |
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
Chained Reactions
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 01:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
You can blasterfit it and bricktank it and hope something falls within scram+web range. If it does youll probobly win with blasters. A ferox works for this too though and is much cheaper and will probobly get you more fights lol |
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate
Initiative Mercenaries
49
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 01:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Don't be mad. I have each cruiser to V and just like flying different things. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin.
Nulli Secunda
333
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 04:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Indeterminacy wrote: Note that I never said "eagle is just as good as anything else"
Indeterminacy wrote:But as I said, it's on par with a sniper fit diemost.
v0v |
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