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Noble Duck
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:03:00 -
[1]
I've been playing for three weeks as a Gallente, and this game is unlike anything I've played. Oh, it's awesome. What I ultimately want from this game is PVP. I have several questions regarding when I will not be useless (or just cannon fodder) in PVP.
1. At what ship can I start dishing decent DPS in small gang and fleet ops?
2. At what ship can I become a significant EW threat in small gang and fleet ops?
3. How many skill points do I roughly need to become significant in small gang and fleet ops, assuming most of points are geared for PVP?
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Togg Bott
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:12:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Togg Bott on 21/04/2008 10:11:52
1. any
2. not sure
3. any amount above 700k
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Ulatre
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:12:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Noble Duck
I've been playing for three weeks as a Gallente, and this game is unlike anything I've played. Oh, it's awesome. What I ultimately want from this game is PVP. I have several questions regarding when I will not be useless (or just cannon fodder) in PVP.
1. At what ship can I start dishing decent DPS in small gang and fleet ops?
2. At what ship can I become a significant EW threat in small gang and fleet ops?
3. How many skill points do I roughly need to become significant in small gang and fleet ops, assuming most of points are geared for PVP?
There's no real straight answer to those questions.. I personally have an alt with less than 1m SP in a Frieghter that can deal out 50dps consistently (it's better than you think, compare it to some heavy missiles etc.  ), and that can take out a Battleship (assuming the BS doesn't have any small weapons).
Though there'll be plenty of people with their own ideas.
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Freya Runestone
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:12:00 -
[4]
1: T1 cruiser
2: T1 frigate
3: less than you think probably. you can pvp with few SP. the way the skill system works, you get 3/4 of the way fast, perfection takes longer
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Guvante
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ulatre
There's no real straight answer to those questions.. I personally have an alt with less than 1m SP in a Frieghter that can deal out 50dps consistently (it's better than you think, compare it to some heavy missiles etc. ), and that can take out a Battleship (assuming the BS doesn't have any small weapons).
Though there'll be plenty of people with their own ideas.
WTB Frieghter with slots 
But to answer the OP question, once you can get in a Frig with a web/scram you are an asset to alot of PvP squads. Holding an enemy still is invaluable in most situations, argueably even in large ops (Less so, since all you would be doing is pointing primaries, who should die before they warp anyway)
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:24:00 -
[6]
PVP is a matter of experience, tactics and making sure that the scenario works in your favour. SP doesn't come into play that much.
- a Thorax is always nice to have in a cruiser/support group
- as EW the Celestis does quite well but only in certain situations.
- it depends on what your role is, as a basic tackler you could be useful in groups at around 1 mil SP, it's not ideal ofcourse but you'd be able to fulfill your job.
EVE is about specialisation, covert ops for instance takes about 3 mil to be good with and much more than most specialisations it is all about player ability, not SP.
Your best bet to be an allround combat char is to train up your support skills but not focus on T2 ships for a long time. Thorax/vexor is a great ship to have in a group, myrmidon does nicely, looking at the expensive and skill intensive T2 ships or BS and go "OMGIWANT!!!!" won't help you in any way tbh.
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Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Noble Duck
1. At what ship can I start dishing decent DPS in small gang and fleet ops?
Not sure. Some may say cruiser, others BC, others BS. I like to think that in a fleet even a frigate can contribute. It's more important to prevent the ship from getting help, escaping or sustaining its tank than how much DPS is inflicted, unless you are on a timer (like with suicide ganking). If you are, the guns should match the target.
Originally by: Noble Duck
2. At what ship can I become a significant EW threat in small gang and fleet ops?
Any ship with an EW bonus can become a threath. Even the lowly griffin can be an incredible pain in the butt if ignored. Larger ships simply last a few seconds longer when they get called primary, but any EW ship can serve to either ruin the opponent's strategy, or force them to waste a shot by calling it primary. So as soon as you can fly your race's T1 EW frigate well, you can join that game. With a grow option towards the T2 EW frigate.
Originally by: Noble Duck
3. How many skill points do I roughly need to become significant in small gang and fleet ops, assuming most of points are geared for PVP?
Not sure. You'd need at least racial frigate 3, Propulsion jamming 1, a few levels in tanking skills apropriate to your ship's tank, and level 4 in either your ship's main weapon or it's form of electronic warfare. Having some levels in high speed maneuvering can also help to stay alive. Don't ask me how many SP or how many hours of training that translates to.
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CrayC
Gallente
CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:44:00 -
[8]
1. The level 3 combat frigate for either race (Punisher, Merlin/Kestrel, Imicus, Rifter). Rifter is by far the most popular (and best if you ask me), with the Kestrel being a nice missile alternative to the turret-based Merlin for Caldari. Punisher and Imicus can be good, but the others are good. Being Gallente, you should have a look at the Imicus...
2. As Shanur said, get the EW frigate and the skills needed for that ship's EW bonus and you are good to go!
3. 1 Million. Which, incidently, is just about what you start out with these days. All you REALLY need is a few more of the right skills you don't get with creation and you can kick butt left and right. Of course, it does require Real Life Skills too, but that can be gained by teaming up with people that know how to do it and can teach you the basics. From there on out, it's all coming to you naturally.
And if it doesn't? Well, there's always the usual "go back to WOW" if you start complaining, but you don't sound like you'll end there, judging from these 3 simple questions. To be honest, they are some of the most promising questions I have seen from noo.... I mean, new players. And I've seen a lot of them in my time here 
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:49:00 -
[9]
1) DPS isn't everything. Missile sp is more productive than gun sp and missiles are easier to use. A noob ship with t2 light guns can dish out some respectable dps. Usually a t1 cruiser and above can be used. DPS isn't everything. At lower sp going with logistics/ecm/tackler is often a better bet.
2) EW is one of the best things to get into at first. It takes a minimum of experience and you can watch the fight versus trying to stay alive. Get caldari cruiser 4 and a Blackbird. Should cost about 8-10mil per ship which will be disposable income after you've made some isk. Consider ecm/logistic ships disposable because you're going to be primary and you're going to die. Often. Should take about 2-3 weeks to get fairly decent skills for ship plus some cheap mods.
3) SP needed? 1. Most pvp is about the will to fight and learn versus the skillpoints. While ships, skillpoints, and fittings do help its your brain which is a bit more important.
The difference between a new player and a vet are options. Vets have lots of ships to fly, and lots of sp "wasted" on skills rarely used. You'll need to decide which options you which to take and follow those (ie tackler). Decide what is productive for your gang and what you enjoy doing. Worry about learning skills when you're not sure what else to train.
This isn't a slugfest about dps. Someone has to be willing to die and grab the tackle. Some logistics can be invaluable. Jamming is one of the more effective ecms and a Blackbird can be very very very annoying to hostiles.
Not all sp can go to pvp typically. Your corp/alliance may ask that you pickup specific skills (ie starbase defense or caldari cruiser 4 for the Osprey). Then there are the learning skills. Then you've got to figure out a way to make isk.
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Bertn Erney
The Fudge Packers Union
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bertn Erney on 21/04/2008 11:04:38
you can start pvping in a capable ship about 4 hours after you start a minmatar character if you build him right (not that much choice) hell you can have him flying a rifter frigate with t2 guns in less then a week I think.
that is a good place to start as well because it is cheap pvp even for someone new. for like two mil a day you can probably pvp all day.
infact this character is one I created and trained for about two days and havent trained a skill on it a day since then, and I go roam around solo pirating in a vexor cruiser, it is surprisingly effective.
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leung bak
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:06:00 -
[11]
Dont think he meant totally wasted, just that for any shipbuild there is a set amount of skills which will benefit and the rest you have trained arent going to help.
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:17:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Inertial on 21/04/2008 13:22:03
1. For gallente, the first PVP able ship, is a Velator (Caldari: Ibis. Minmatar: Reaper. Amarr: Impairor).
2. Velator, Ibis, Reaper, Impairor.
3. 1sp and up!
Fact is that you can always PVP, but when you are younger, you need to choose your targets more wisely. The more SP and expirience you get, the more targets become available.
Another version of my answers are:
1: Thorax/Vexor/Rupture/Maller, at around 1.5 million SP, and you would be a good addition to a gang. My thorax does about 300 DPS without being T2 fitted (most of my SP are in frigate sized ships). You can easily get into a BC from a cruiser as they use the same type of weapon/tank.
2. Celestis/Blackbird/Griffin/Arbitrator are the good early ewar ships. I would guess you would need around 1.5 million SP to operate them effeciently, if you train dedicatedly.
3. With this character I started PVPing from 800k SP, altough I had about 4 months of prior expirience when I created Inertial. Was a pain in the behind tough, since I didn't get warp scramblers for around 4 hours, so a Tristan got away from me  .
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Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:25:00 -
[13]
As others have mentioned, you can be very valuable in a tech 1 frigate.
For reference, here is the list of minimum skill requirements for the Agony Unleashed PvP Basic course. As you can see, it doesn't require much training at all to get started. Currently, all places for the next class are filled, but have a look around our website if you want to see what a bunch of frigs can do.
The skill list (higher level is better, of course, but this is the minimum:
Propulsion Jamming 1+
Afterburner 1+
Caldari, Amarr, Gallente or Minmatar Frigate 1+
Sensor Linking 1+
Warp Drive Operation 3+
Target Painting 1+
Weapon Disruption 1+
Electronic Warfare 1+
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SKINK0429
Lucky Hydra Corp
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:34:00 -
[14]
My advice is if you want to pvp get frigate 5 as soon as you can and fly an interceptor It does not take that long to get in one and they are very usefull and fun to fly. You can getaway using T1 gear on it just use best named you can afford!
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DasDizzy
Violent Vikings
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bertn Erney
Edited by: Bertn Erney on 21/04/2008 11:07:11
Edited by: Bertn Erney on 21/04/2008 11:04:38
hell you can have him flying a rifter frigate with t2 guns in less then a week I think.
more like in under 1 hour
In federate gallente, armor tanks YOU |
Salliene
Gallente
Wraiths Reborn
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:57:00 -
[16]
Everyone on here gave great answers, so please listen to them. You are never "ready enough" for PVP in EVE. You either go in with what you got or you never go in. There are thousands of people who miss out on the pure joy of PVP cause they think that they need just a few more skillpoints. Well they keep thinking that and thinking that and thinking that and then get bored and quit.
If you look around the Crime and Punishment boards you will see people who went into PVP pretty much right out of the tutorial and never went back.
JUST DO IT!
One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe |
Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Salliene
Everyone on here gave great answers, so please listen to them. You are never "ready enough" for PVP in EVE. You either go in with what you got or you never go in. There are thousands of people who miss out on the pure joy of PVP cause they think that they need just a few more skillpoints. Well they keep thinking that and thinking that and thinking that and then get bored and quit.
If you look around the Crime and Punishment boards you will see people who went into PVP pretty much right out of the tutorial and never went back.
JUST DO IT!
This person is 100% correct. You never got too much skillpoints, and you never got too little. Brains > Skillpoints!
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Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:11:00 -
[18]
Very well said. About the only thing that you wuld absolutely have to wait for once you started playing in earnest is Infomorph psychology 1 and 8.0 standing with an NPC corp so that you can store your valuable implants on a jumpclone while you go pew-pewing. For the rest, being ready for PvP is just a matter of keeping your clone up to date, having a stack of replacement ships to last the engagement pre fitted, and insuring all of them right before you undock. Being good at it is mostly teamwork and player skills. The character skills needed are minimal.
If you do like some assurance, see if you can enroll in one of the classes from Agony Unleashed. They aren't free, but they are a pretty good way to get your feet wet in PvP combat. It may be a bit tricky to get into one as i hear they are actually having trouble keeping up with demand these days (maybe change from a merc corp into a full time PvP institute fellas  ).
Originally by: Malcanis
Too many people confuse "Waah, I didn't get my own way" with 'poor customer service'.
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Elysa Madou
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:18:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Elysa Madou on 21/04/2008 14:18:52
1) Decent DPS would probably be Cruiser/Assault Frigate/Battlecruiser.
Battlecruisers are surprisingly good at dishing out damage, the only downside is their range in larger fleet fights. (Which usually take place at long range.) Also, possibly a stealth bomber. It depends if you want to go bigger or train lots of tech2 ships.
DPS is not everything. For example, I like to fly a Vexor in gangs.. no guns, just Energy Neuts/Nos to ruin an enemies cap, then all my DPS from drones. Alternatively, the vexor can fit blasters and drones, and outdamage the thorax. I'd say a Vexor/Thorax would be your best bet for an early PVP ship, easy to replace and highly effective.
2) EWar frigate, EWar cruiser. For you, the Maulus/Celestis will be a ship you should already be able to fly. Sensor dampen a ship so it doesn't have the targetting range to fight back, or so it takes too long to lock. Scan resolution dampening works nicely with an ECM partner, so they have even more trouble once they finally can lock again.
3) It really depends. Specialize, specialize, specialize. Your significance is also dependant on experiance and how you design your ship.
Edit: As said above, just get out and try it. The best tool will be experiance and confidence in what your ship can handle.. and that only comes from actually doing it.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/04/2008 14:54:33
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/04/2008 14:53:23
Originally by: Noble Duck
1. At what ship can I start dishing decent DPS in small gang and fleet ops?
A lot of tech 1 cruisers can deal a lot of damage in terms of their investment in both money and training. Ships like the Rupture and Thorax spring to mind.
Quote:
2. At what ship can I become a significant EW threat in small gang and fleet ops?
The Griffin (Caldari ECM frigate) is an excellent little EW boat and you should be able to fly one effectively within a few days of starting. Bear in mind that you'll find yourself getting shot at a lot though. It's cruiser-sized cousin, the Blackbird, is also a good ECM boat.
If you want to do damage and some EW, then you can't go wrong with the Arbitrator (a T1 Amarrian cruiser). It's gets bonuses to drone damage (it has a large bay) and tracking disruptor effectiveness. It does require a little bit more training than the previously mentioned ships, but it's very cheap.
Quote:
3. How many skill points do I roughly need to become significant in small gang and fleet ops, assuming most of points are geared for PVP?
You can be effective as soon as you can use a warp disruptor. And the sooner you start, the sooner you'll pick up the player skills that you need to be effective.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Salliene
Everyone on here gave great answers, so please listen to them. You are never "ready enough" for PVP in EVE. You either go in with what you got or you never go in. There are thousands of people who miss out on the pure joy of PVP cause they think that they need just a few more skillpoints. Well they keep thinking that and thinking that and thinking that and then get bored and quit.
If you look around the Crime and Punishment boards you will see people who went into PVP pretty much right out of the tutorial and never went back.
JUST DO IT!
Amen, just go for it.
You can do a fine job of tackling with very little training if you start with one of the military careers. Heck, it would only be a day or two from a carebear career.
As a frigate you'll probably find yourself getting blown up a good bit but there really isn't a substitute for expendable tacklers and it's an ideal job for new players with low skill points and cheap clones. I'm at around 5 mil skill points right now and I still find myself to be most effective at tackling or in a cov ops. Sure, I could fly a BC/BS or whatever else but I don't have the skills to excel in those ships and it's a real shame to miss that quick ship you'd have caught with a 500k isk frig (or assault ship / inty / destroyer) present.
As you gain in skill points there are good upgrade options for tackling as well: assault ships for tough but affordable, inties are the ultimate for getting a point on it, dictors for cheap bubbles, and heavy dictors for the ultimate in big ship tackling.
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