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Minimax Prime	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:00:00 - [1] When I started eve I had the impression that this game was about big entities struggling for valuable resources. I donÆt see much of this going on here. Most I have encountered is random aggression against helpless prey. I am pretty sure more ppl would dwell in 0.0 of they where not under constant and arbitrary threat there. What is the point in getting boom at the first gate for no reason,without warning and without any profit gain for the aggressor. You are aiming at the balancing between isk sinks and isk production and the competitive aspect this game should have? Reduce randomness and youÆll have your isk sinks and would add so much flavour to the game. People are willing to risk isk if it has a purpose. And this ship insurance thing is nothing but a joke. Make it expensive to lose ship after ship! This would reduce a good deal of rnd aggression I think.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:02:00 - [2] Just cause you don't have valuable resources in your ship don't mean people aren't gonna ***** it open to see for themselves. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:06:00 - [3] Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 21/04/2008 16:06:18 Originally by: Minimax Prime What is the point in getting boom at the first gate for no reason,without warning and without any profit gain for the aggressor. Not_safe_anywhere. Originally by: Minimax Prime And this ship insurance thing is nothing but a joke. Make it expensive to lose ship after ship! This would reduce a good deal of rnd aggression I think. Only_for_t1_ships. Zombie_hungry_Zombie_go_eat.
gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:13:00 - [4] If somebody steps into you house and there is no police to remove him, what would you do? -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Minimax Prime When I started eve I had the impression that this game was about big entities struggling for valuable resources. I donÆt see much of this going on here. Most I have encountered is random aggression against helpless prey. I am pretty sure more ppl would dwell in 0.0 of they where not under constant and arbitrary threat there. What is the point in getting boom at the first gate for no reason,without warning and without any profit gain for the aggressor. You are aiming at the balancing between isk sinks and isk production and the competitive aspect this game should have? Reduce randomness and youÆll have your isk sinks and would add so much flavour to the game. People are willing to risk isk if it has a purpose. And this ship insurance thing is nothing but a joke. Make it expensive to lose ship after ship! This would reduce a good deal of rnd aggression I think. Killing you is part of the struggle for valuable resources. If they want to preserve their space and they adopt a "not blue shoot it" policy, they have to destroy neutrals. The profit they make is that you are now out of their space, so you can't mine their ore, or take their NPCs, or farm their plexes. I really don't see how reducing randomness in EVE (whatever that would mean) equates to you being allowed into any area of 0.0 you want.
DasDizzy Violent Vikings	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:16:00 - [6] Originally by: gfldex If somebody steps into you house and there is no police to remove him, what would you do? id hit it, with a baseball bat In federate gallente, armor tanks YOU
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Minimax Prime When I started eve I had the impression that this game was about big entities struggling for valuable resources. I donÆt see much of this going on here. Most I have encountered is random aggression against helpless prey. I am pretty sure more ppl would dwell in 0.0 of they where not under constant and arbitrary threat there. What is the point in getting boom at the first gate for no reason,without warning and without any profit gain for the aggressor. You are aiming at the balancing between isk sinks and isk production and the competitive aspect this game should have? Reduce randomness and youÆll have your isk sinks and would add so much flavour to the game. People are willing to risk isk if it has a purpose. And this ship insurance thing is nothing but a joke. Make it expensive to lose ship after ship! This would reduce a good deal of rnd aggression I think. You have some fundamental misconceptions about Eve but more importantly you must be willing to accept that you are wrong and learn from your mistakes. There is a whole lot of territorial warfare going on in Eve but are not able to see it because you are essentially the Ant trying to observe the behavior of the humans and having a hard time understanding it. The fact that their are tracts of space that are relatively empty doesn't mean there is nothing going on. Those tracts could be no-man's-land or buffer between two aggressors. The battles that go on would be of a nature that you cant get close to them without getting blown up for any number of reasons. People in 0.0 agress anyone that come in their space because of a number of reasons. The newcommer could be a spy delivering vital intel. They could be a poacher trying to kill some valuable rats in the area that the alliance views as their space or they could be a non-political organization like AGONY that kills for the fun of it. Your solutions to this problem are not to complian about it on Eve-O but to learn how Eve works. Take an Agony Empire PvP Basic class and we will educate you on what you are doing wrong in 0.0 and how to make an impact even at your young age in the game. Just click on the hydra in my signature and it might open up a whole new part of eve you never knew existed.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Minimax Prime [justify]When I started eve I had the impression that this game was about big entities struggling for valuable resources. I donÆt see much of this going on here. Most I have encountered is random aggression against helpless prey. If you haven't seen it, it's not because it isn't there. It's only because you aren't a part of it. I can guarantee you that a player who randomly attacks players who are in corps/alliances that are set friendly to his corp/alliance wouldn't last very long in his corp. But see, you are a neutral, and that is, for all intents and purposes, the same as a hostile to most people (CVA being a notable exception).
DrefsabZN	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:20:00 - [9] Eve is a game that attracts griefers, they want nothing more than to blow stuff up for the sheer joy of killing another player. They arn't doing it for profit or gain, just so they can say look that guy worked hard to get his stuff and I took it off him in seconds. Fair fights in this game are almost none existent. Because of this people need to be careful, never fly thing you cant replace, expect to get blown up and be thankful for every trip that you survive. Even in empire expect to get jumped because it can and does happen. There are loads of people out there that dont care who you are, what your doing, what you did or didnt do to them. If your in space your a target and nothing more. While everyone isnt like this theres enough people that are to make space very dangerous.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Minimax Prime ...this game was about big entities struggling for valuable resources... Space is a valuable resource. If you were popped at an entrance system then you were killed because you might have been carrying valuable cargo and had not paid the occupiers for the right to use that gate. If you were popped traveling from system to system then you were killed because you had not secured the right to travel. You pay or they shoot. Usually its easier on the negoiations to shoot. If you were popped in a belt you were killed because you had not paid rent for the use of the system. At the very least you had not bled isk in the defense of the system from others. There are so many ways to make isk in vaccuum, why not shoot if the target isn't blue? And if they're blue, that merely means they've paid somehow, but just not to you. Originally by: Minimax Prime ...random aggression against helpless prey... We don't shoot because we're hungry, we shoot because it moves. Helpless prey doesn't exist in this game. Only prey that hasn't bitten first. Originally by: Minimax Prime I am pretty sure more ppl would dwell in 0.0 of they where not under constant and arbitrary threat there. They're not under constant threat. Because they shoot first (excluding specific NRDS space). They clear the space of anyone not blue. The issue is those in Empire that are not willing to shoot. And not willing to risk isk on either side. We call these folks "targets". If they're not willing to fight then they'll most likely be a liability in 0.0. Originally by: Minimax Prime What is the point in getting boom at the first gate for no reason,without warning and without any profit gain for the aggressor. Because that gate is a valuable resource. You camp the player spawns. Sometimes it spawns blues. Sometimes lots of reds. Sometimes neutrals. These spawns want to move to the next gate or kill you. Either way there is value in holding the gate. Even if the gate cannot be held 24/7 if it is a hotspot that means less risk to those in protected areas making isk. Oh, and wait until someone posts the killmail of the shuttle hauling 2x office hardeners. The shuttle has no risk right? No value correct? Without checking first who knows what you're carrying. Popping everything is a form of a lottery. The payoff can be immense if lucky. Originally by: Minimax Prime ... People are willing to risk isk if it has a purpose... People are risking isk. To shoot you. To protect "their" space. To protect "their" income streams.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:33:00 - [11] Originally by: DrefsabZN Eve is a game that attracts griefers, they want nothing more than to blow stuff up for the sheer joy of killing another player. They arn't doing it for profit or gain, just so they can say look that guy worked hard to get his stuff and I took it off him in seconds. Fair fights in this game are almost none existent. Because of this people need to be careful, never fly thing you cant replace, expect to get blown up and be thankful for every trip that you survive. Even in empire expect to get jumped because it can and does happen. There are loads of people out there that dont care who you are, what your doing, what you did or didnt do to them. If your in space your a target and nothing more. While everyone isnt like this theres enough people that are to make space very dangerous. Please. Smallest violin playing just for you. There are dynamics going on in 0.0 that you don't understand so you label everyone as griefers. That is a bit pathetic man. There re lots of motivations to kill any random neutral in your space and almost no reason to NOT kill them. You should find out answers before you start slinging platitudes and whines. And lowsec pirates, by the way, are fairly simple to avoid or dominate if you have the right training. The reality is that your problem is YOU.
DrefsabZN	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:39:00 - [12] Edited by: DrefsabZN on 21/04/2008 16:39:48 Rell's put your glasses on and reread my post, then please point out where I mentioned this was the case for 0.0? Can't see it well maybe thats because that wasn't what I said. I was pointing out that EVE is a harsh place, filled with people who would love to blow your ship up for the sheer fun of it no matter what space you are in. As a newbie to the game that's a very important thing for the OP to learn. Having only ever been killed once in a fair fight out in low sec this post is nothing to do why my personal experience in space, so kindly keep your incorrect assumption's to yourself.
Kyra Felann Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:02:00 - [13] Originally by: gfldex If somebody steps into you house and there is no police to remove him, what would you do? Shoot him/her. What does this have to do with the thread?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:07:00 - [14] I read your post. When you understand how Eve really works, Lowsec wont even register on your consciousness. There is only 0.0 and Empire. Your issues are lack of training and skills (not Skill Points but personal skills). But when you pull out the "griefer" word, which is a highly charged emotional based attack, you set the tone for your post that indicates anythign but calm rational thought. Over the time i have been in eve I have been in hundreds of "fair fights" and hundreds not so fair. I have been creamed when I made a mistake at a gate and I have killed interceptors with tech 1 frigates. Fights have all sorts of profiles and whether it was "fair" or not is often judged from the point of view of whomever came out on top. You have to take the fights as they re, not whine about fairness.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:18:00 - [15] Edited by: ***zilla on 21/04/2008 17:20:52 Originally by: Rells There re lots of motivations to kill any random neutral in your space and almost no reason to NOT kill them. To expand on this truth. It helps to see this not as states and countries. Instead view this as organized crime families. Eveything is a racket. Trust exists to further a cause for a mutual racket. Players do not follow and die for their country. They follow and die for the head of the family or for a very mean enforcer that earns them kills and glory. It may seem like random splotches of color on the map and strange utterances in coad. The game is a very political battlefield. Think of the worst office politics. In prison. And you're blindfolded. Lots happens that you'd rather not know about. The issue is there is no reason not to kill neutrals. There isn't any way to generate revenue reliably from neutrals. At one point ransoming worked but was tiresome. Killing everything dries up the ransoming income but the loot often helps out. For neutrals to be welcome in 0.0 there needs to be a reason for them to go and for those holding 0.0 to compete to attract neutrals. Casinos. Lotteries. Cheating. Gambling. Exotic sounding women on teamspeak. Something that makes alliances consider neutrals not as chum but instead little revenue sources. As it stands now Empire has everything. Isk, materials, manufacturing, research. So many free services that 0.0 cannot compete or make isk from. I'm hoping that one day ccp drastically changes most Empire services. Either raises "taxes" so that Empire services are very expensive or limited. Then it might be viable for a Big Blue trading hub in 0.0 to compete with Jita.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: gfldex If somebody steps into you house and there is no police to remove him, what would you do? Shoot him/her. What does this have to do with the thread? Well, apparently the OP went to 0.0 and was (not very surprisingly) killed by the locals at the gate, jumping into the entrance system into 0.0.
DrefsabZN	Posted - 2008.04.21 18:03:00 - [17] Edited by: DrefsabZN on 21/04/2008 18:03:28 Rell's I think its rich to talk about "personal skill's" from someone that's making personal attacks and accusations because you don't personally agree with what im saying or my point of view. Yes I used the word griefer. It may well be highly charged as a word but that's what I consider people that go out looking to kill those peoeple who have 0 chance of defending themselves. There are those that will fight a fair fight and those people get my respect. But those people that wont attack a single lone cruiser unless they have 5 battle cruiser's or similar are in my view just that. They are looking to kill someone just because they can. The same people that will jump in on mission runner's, kill shuttles (not in 0.0 space) etc. They for the most part do so not for profit but because they can and find it fun to kill someone else regardless of if they can fight back or not. By this very argument almost all pirates are griefer's and rightly so because they enjoy killing and causing "grief" to other players. I use the term "griefer" purely for the literal meaning of the word, if you are incapable of reading such words without getting upset then that sir is your issue not mine.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Rells on 21/04/2008 19:46:47 Originally by: DrefsabZN Edited by: DrefsabZN on 21/04/2008 18:03:28 Rell's I think its rich to talk about "personal skill's" from someone that's making personal attacks and accusations because you don't personally agree with what im saying or my point of view. It wasnt a personal attack but a statement of fact. A good player in Eve fuses in game elements with personal skills. This is the reason an AGONY pilot can kill an interceptor with a tech 1 frigate while many others cant manage it. There is more to pvp than F1-F8 and if you dont know that you are missing those skills. its not a point of shame for you, just a weakness you need overcome. Originally by: DrefsabZN Yes I used the word griefer. It may well be highly charged as a word but that's what I consider people that go out looking to kill those peoeple who have 0 chance of defending themselves. There are those that will fight a fair fight and those people get my respect. Lets take a random Merlin coming through alliance space. That merlin is piloted by an "innocent noob" but of course the alliance doesnt know that. They dont if that is jus a noob or a scout reporting fleet composition and position. They dont know if that person is hostile or not or surveying the POSes to pick out the best one to attack. The prudent gesture is to destroy the ship. Things are not always as they appear and when you jump into 0.0 ou better be ready for it because people will attack you. The simple solution is to stay in empire if you arent ready for it. Originally by: DrefsabZN But those people that wont attack a single lone cruiser unless they have 5 battle cruiser's or similar are in my view just that. They are looking to kill someone just because they can. The same people that will jump in on mission runner's, kill shuttles (not in 0.0 space) etc. They for the most part do so not for profit but because they can and find it fun to kill someone else regardless of if they can fight back or not. There are multiple reasons people kill other ships and the concept of a "fair fight" is something best left to hypotheticals. Some people wont engage unless the odds are heavily in their favor yet, at the same time, they dont know of you are laying a trap for them with your lone cruiser to warp in a lot more force. if you look at it fro their point of view they are being prudent. As for someone dropping on you in a mission there are many ways to easily avoid this problem. You merely have to think creatively. Not the least of which is to lay a trap for those pirates so the next time they drop in on you they are the ones that get creamed. A couple of times doing that and they will seek easier prey elsewhere. TBH after living in 0.0 god knows how long, lowsec pirates dont really strike me as much of a threat. Their patterns of operation are predictable and problems easily avoidable or confrontable. AGONY was once hired to fight Racketeers (a known war decing pirate corp) and we found the task obnoxiously boring and easy. Lowsec is for kiddies and lowsec pirates, predominantly, are relatively low skilled with few exceptions. Originally by: DrefsabZN By this very argument almost all pirates are griefer's and rightly so because they enjoy killing and causing "grief" to other players. I use the term "griefer" purely for the literal meaning of the word, if you are incapable of reading such words without getting upset then that sir is your issue not mine. This is a GAME. If you cant get that through your head then you have SERIOUS perspective problems. Its not killing in RL and you shouldnt try to draw parallels with killing in RL. Its just a game and thats a digital ship, a digital pod and a digital clone. Pvpers in this game and indeed pirates can often be some of the nicest people you will ever meet in RL and other times they can be rejects. The mix is about the same for the non-pvpers. P.S. You dont have the capability to "upset" me. I am trying to HELP you.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.21 20:06:00 - [19] in 0.0 you shoot first, and ask questions later. You never know what someone is carrying, who they are working for, etc. Theres also the saying, if you find yourself in a fair fight, you didnt plan accordingly, or somesuch. EVE is kill or die in 0.0. You do what you need to do to survive. There is always someone bigger, someone with a better ship, more isks, etc. So you lie in wait, plan traps, bait people into attacking while trying to obscure the size and makeup of your force. All to defend your space or deny the use of space to others. Because after all, a fair fight is just a fight you have a 50% chance of losing. Not the best odds. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Varopriest Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.22 01:16:00 - [20] Originally by: DrefsabZN Edited by: DrefsabZN on 21/04/2008 18:03:28 Rell's I think its rich to talk about "personal skill's" from someone that's making personal attacks and accusations because you don't personally agree with what im saying or my point of view. Yes I used the word griefer. It may well be highly charged as a word but that's what I consider people that go out looking to kill those peoeple who have 0 chance of defending themselves. There are those that will fight a fair fight and those people get my respect. But those people that wont attack a single lone cruiser unless they have 5 battle cruiser's or similar are in my view just that. They are looking to kill someone just because they can. The same people that will jump in on mission runner's, kill shuttles (not in 0.0 space) etc. They for the most part do so not for profit but because they can and find it fun to kill someone else regardless of if they can fight back or not. By this very argument almost all pirates are griefer's and rightly so because they enjoy killing and causing "grief" to other players. I use the term "griefer" purely for the literal meaning of the word, if you are incapable of reading such words without getting upset then that sir is your issue not mine. Anyone else thinking of getting out the popcorn and selling tickets? Remember: "That which does not kill you, makes you giggle. And tends to change your native language to Smackinese."
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:23:00 - [21] This thread sucks now. л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
ViperVenom Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:46:00 - [22] I use to pop noobs in low sec for no reason. And i use to pop Vet in lowsec for no reason. But that was when EVE was not so low sec friendly. In EVE your never really safe.. Boo CCP!!!!
Gark32 X Bane X Soldiers Of New Eve	Posted - 2008.04.22 04:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Rells . . . and I have killed interceptors with tech 1 frigates. i did that once. felt like a god. then promptly lost the frig to a trap-osprey. ________________________________________________
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.22 15:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Gark32 Originally by: Rells . . . and I have killed interceptors with tech 1 frigates. i did that once. felt like a god. then promptly lost the frig to a trap-osprey. Its a great feeling. One of my favorite things to do. (The killing, not the losing). There is nothing like having a*****y interceptor pilot go BOOM to a merlin.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.04.22 16:06:00 - [25] Some people waste everything to get their killboard figures up to impress someone in 0.0 enough to let them join up, simple as that. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.22 16:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Some people waste everything to get their killboard figures up to impress someone in 0.0 enough to let them join up, simple as that. The sad part is, it works. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.22 17:21:00 - [27] Originally by: DrefsabZN Edited by: DrefsabZN on 21/04/2008 18:03:28 Rell's I think its rich to talk about "personal skill's" from someone that's making personal attacks and accusations because you don't personally agree with what im saying or my point of view. Yes I used the word griefer. It may well be highly charged as a word but that's what I consider people that go out looking to kill those peoeple who have 0 chance of defending themselves. There are those that will fight a fair fight and those people get my respect. But those people that wont attack a single lone cruiser unless they have 5 battle cruiser's or similar are in my view just that. They are looking to kill someone just because they can. The same people that will jump in on mission runner's, kill shuttles (not in 0.0 space) etc. They for the most part do so not for profit but because they can and find it fun to kill someone else regardless of if they can fight back or not. By this very argument almost all pirates are griefer's and rightly so because they enjoy killing and causing "grief" to other players. I use the term "griefer" purely for the literal meaning of the word, if you are incapable of reading such words without getting upset then that sir is your issue not mine. They aren't grouping up to be a griefer. They are grouping up to become more efficient and ensure there aren't any losses. Honor does not exist in this game, even if you would like it to exist. This game is evil, trust me. And you will not ever REALLY enjoy this game until you admit that to yourself. Stop trying to take the honor road and condemning everything and everyone else.

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