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Tobias Creed
Minmatar
Draconian Toymaker Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.25 19:49:00 -
[1]
I keep seeing references to "just back yourself up" as an argument for pod pilot immortality. I don't like the idea of total pod pilot immortality, and so would prefer if we were not able to be "backed up" on some database somewhere. Is there any evidence of "backing up" pod pilots in the prime fiction or news casts to support this? What is the consensus of eve?
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CCP has determined that some alliances were gaining an unfair advantage through the ability of their players to log in. They responded by nerfing boot.ini |
Dark 'Shadow
Red Research and Developing
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Posted - 2008.04.25 23:24:00 -
[2]
I thought the whole thing happened like a second or two before death, not on a hardrive somewhere. |
Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.26 02:38:00 -
[3]
Interestingly enough CNTL+ALT+DEL had a comic recently showing this. Comic
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EVE RELATED CONTENT |
Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.26 10:17:00 -
[4]
There is reference to it. I'm not sure if it is explicit or if it is along the lines of:
1. Wealthy people who aren't podders have clones
2. Burn scanner is too big to carry around (it is built into the pod for capsuleers)
Therefore there has to be a non-destructive way to back people up.
I think it is generally accepted that this involves a much slower type of scan, and you get it updated periodically at the clinic or data storage place.
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GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.04.26 12:28:00 -
[5]
There used to be missions where it was mentioned in the text that they needed equipment quickly because someone was badly injured so they needed to clone him before he died. The implication there was that cloning had to be done as some kind of emergency first-aid when someone was dying.
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Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.27 04:01:00 -
[6]
If it is possible to transmit consciousness as information, it is possible to back up the information, as well. I'm sure the soul tags along eventually. 
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TheOnlyProphet
Amarr
The Silver Alliance
Ultionis Quietus
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Posted - 2008.04.27 08:29:00 -
[7]
The neural scan that must take place to transmit someone to a clone damages the brain so extensively that the ONLY way to do it is to scan the brain at the instant of death.
For pod pilots this translates to the instance of a hull breach in the pod. Once the pod is breached, an instantly lethal neural toxin is released into the blood stream killing the pilot. The scanner then scans the brain and transmits the data to the clone.
If this doesn't happen near instantaneously then all kinds of things can go wrong, up to and including death of the pilot.
This is the primary reason why pod pilots are really the only 'cloners'. The neural scanning unit is too cumbersome for the common planet or station bound citizen. And they have tried putting scanners up in particular locations but that resulted in people getting scanned when there was nothing wrong, creating vegetables out of the 'victims'.
Naturally this has caused quite the moral debate among the empires. The pod pilots are able to utilize the cloning technology because of the fact that the pod contains all of the necessary hardware and software to make it happen, and make it happen correctly. Concord now actually requires all pod pilots to have a base clone.
Curious that Concord has their hand in it though.
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Lerinda Rasa
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Posted - 2008.04.27 10:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 27/04/2008 10:42:24
There's also some fiction in which a person was duped by a clone which had been activated without the "original" dying. I can't remember if its in an EON magazine or if its somewhere on the site. So there definitely exists cases where there's been two or more of one individual running around. This of course poses problems since you can't check every person everywhere if they're a clone and have a doppelganger. This is why pod pilots are killed and cloned by some toxin the moment the capsule is broken, this way you don't have the "original" person in the pod somehow miraculously survive AND get a clone activated. Pilots supposedly get killed permanently on a somewhat regular basis while they're on stations doing work, but this is (as you may have noticed) not a part of EVEs gameplay.
Of course, one could argue that its a cop out since if you can transfer the mind of a person somewhere else with a system, then you would need to store it somewhere as well, and in that case then it shouldn't be any trouble to duplicate it, and in that way make a person "immortal" as long as there's a copy somewhere.
To them I say that you are taking your Internet space ships business a little too seriously 
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Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.27 20:50:00 -
[9]
If you read the cloning article and Jovian Wet Grave, I believe one or both mention that cloning existed before capsules. And that it is utilized by the wealthy as well. The instantaneous scan is totally destructive. However I am almost positive that mention has been made of non destructive scans that can act as a backup even for a non-podder.
Otherwise, being that the scanner cannot be carried around by normal people, it makes no sense that there would be cloning for non podders at all, which there was and is.
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GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar
Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.04.27 21:10:00 -
[10]
I remember the JWG piece, but it predates jump-clones. One presumes that it uses the aforementioned nondestructive method, but has the luxury of taking as long as necessary, as opposed to the "oh crap NOW" method used by pods 
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Kvirie
Caldari
Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.05.01 01:49:00 -
[11]
I think Jump Clones dispel the notion of there only being the death-transaction for cloning.
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.01 22:17:00 -
[12]
This is an interesting question.
First: The brain scan that makes cloneing so foolproof in pods turns the brain into a nice electrified goo.
It kills the pilot before his enemies do so to get a perfect scan.
Now, if you take a look at one of the chronicles on cloneing: http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/jun01-01.asp
You will notice that, unlike the pod pilots who have recollection up to the second of death, the person being cloned there did not remember the death. This suggests that he had a brain scan before he left on the dangerous mission, and then was restored back to that brain scan.
Also the data is somehow transmitted over the FTL communications arrays. This means that it has to be transferrable into whatever code the FTL comms use.
If it can be sent across the comms, the order of 1s and 0s (assuming its binary) can certainly be preserved.
So yes, it conceptually is entirely possible to preserve different versions of yourself. I will leave the possibilities this creates to your imagination.
Now, I don't believe in total pod pilot immortality because I believe at some point the brain issues of a pod pilot will have to start being transferred. Eventually the pod pilot seems likely to have to chose between maintaining losing or her personality to an imperfect copy of an old brain to a new one and dealing with brain ageing diseases.
Still, for all intents and purposes, this does equal immortality of a sort.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Elphy
Minmatar
Warp badgers with guns
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Posted - 2008.05.07 08:14:00 -
[13]
The cloning equipment accepts brain scan data to load into a clone. That data is collected by the scanner in a clinic, pod wherever and transmitted over communication lines to the cloning equipment.
This would mean there is a data transfer to allow this to happen. If there is a transfer of data then there is a physical abstraction of a mind. If this can be abstracted into data and transmitted then in theory yes this could be backed up to any kind of storage device with enough space.
Doing so would allow people to be more or less immortal as long as the backups are not lost or damaged. If a scan can only be done destructively then the risk one takes is that the scan will be done correctly on your one and only go at it. If all is well then you are instantly transfered into a clone and off you go on your merry way. If someone had the resources available to have this done at say 3-6 month intervals for a non pilot then when death is accidental and quick the most they would lose is a few months of memories and information which is not as bad as cases of chronic memory loss due to natural or self induced conditions.
In conclusion. Yes using cloning equipment will give you immortality of a sort but it is not infallible so while you could live alot longer than naturally you would not live forever.
Bootnote - Comparisons with Ghost in the Shell: If anyone has read the original work and delved into the themes below the typical Comic Dialog and Art work of Masumune Shirow will see that there are interesting similarities. While EVE deals with cloning as a form of immortality GITS instead used technology to augment and advance human ability. In both cases a new type of class boundry is created. in EVE its those who have a clone and those who do not and in GITS its those who have cybernetics and those who do not. Both allow the transfer of what classically could be described as a persons soul between physical husks. In doing so they have proven or disproven a number of Philosophical arguments about the nature of the body and the mind. If it is possible for the mind to exist without the body and be transfered between bodies and still be the same mind then what is it to be truely human?
Are humans purely a collection of chemical and electrical signals that dictate how they interact in a dynamic environment or would the use of such technology reduce a clone/cyborg as nothing more than a copy, a doppleganger, a facsimile of a human being with different physical characteristics creating a different person even with the same brain.
This would then lead on to the second and most well known topic of GITS and that was the creation of AI from the chaotic vortex of infomation stored on what would be the future incarnation of the internet. If a human mind is just data then why is data not a human mind. Could data adapt and evolve the same way as life has? In the end life is just following the genetic infomation in DNA. If life if you would is but the abstraction of stored infomation which is being interprated for practical use then why would chemical and genetic infomation be the only kind that could do it?
With the thousands if not millions of brain scans traveling over FTL networks daily in EVE would it not be possible for a new mind, a new kind of thinker to develop and evolve from that chaotic nexus of thoughts, fears, loves and knowledge?
If it were to come into being what would stop it from taking over cloning facilities to create its own physical manifestations to build its own Empire. A human/computer hybrid hivemind.
No one can be certain either way as it is a question that is beyond answering by religion, science or philosophy. One thing does remain contant in the Universe and that is that we exist to give birth to our successors. What if our successors are not of flesh and blood but of steel? Science is a double edged sword and can be used for great as well as evil things. You must be careful how you use it. |
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