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Ne nehn	Posted - 2008.04.25 23:41:00 - [1] I've been thinking a bit today about assult frigs. My conclusion, theyre ok, but they die so easy. And when they die you loose so much money. Fixing assult frigs might not be harder then to bang up the insurance. If they paid out 9-12m when killed i'd have no problems bringing one to combat.
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.25 23:46:00 - [2] Doesn't work that way. The huge gap between T2 ships and insurance comes more from player inflation than the way the insurance system works. Also, being able to insure a t2 ship for full value does not 'fix it'
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.25 23:49:00 - [3] Edited by: Ortos on 25/04/2008 23:51:23 AF's imo is fine as they are. Theyre just too expensive to fly. Totally agree with OP. Flying one ATM, fitted for about 30m. Insures for 3m when 100% insured. Great ships.
Elhina Novae Amarr Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:25:00 - [4] Lower mass and move around fitting slots.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Elhina Novae Lower mass This. Please CCP, this.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:42:00 - [6] Originally by: Ortos Edited by: Ortos on 25/04/2008 23:51:23 AF's imo is fine as they are. Theyre just too expensive to fly. Totally agree with OP. Flying one ATM, fitted for about 30m. Insures for 3m when 100% insured. Great ships. Their price is completely in line with other tech 2 frigates. I don't hear people saying interceptors are too expensive?
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Ortos Edited by: Ortos on 25/04/2008 23:51:23 AF's imo is fine as they are. Theyre just too expensive to fly. Totally agree with OP. Flying one ATM, fitted for about 30m. Insures for 3m when 100% insured. Great ships. Their price is completely in line with other tech 2 frigates. I don't hear people saying interceptors are too expensive? The difference is that inties are USEFUL. AF's arnt.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Ortos Edited by: Ortos on 25/04/2008 23:51:23 AF's imo is fine as they are. Theyre just too expensive to fly. Totally agree with OP. Flying one ATM, fitted for about 30m. Insures for 3m when 100% insured. Great ships. Their price is completely in line with other tech 2 frigates. I don't hear people saying interceptors are too expensive? The difference is that inties are USEFUL. AF's arnt. Then, assuming that's the case, the price is not the real problem here, right?
Ne nehn	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:50:00 - [9] Imo, the diffrence is Inty's survive. This is a t2 ship, you want to fit 10-15m in mods on it, possibly rigs. But in their current form, AF's are too expensive for a ship wich is this easy to kill. Now, im suggesting that you dont change the AF's themselves, but make them more cost effective. Say you got a tier 2 battlecruiser. Then take an AF, loosing an AF is more expensive then loosing a t2 battlecruiser. Thats were the problem lies. Eve is all about making the enemy loose more cash then you do, AF's in their current state are unable to do that because they cost too much when they die. Not because they werent usefull in the first place.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Ortos Edited by: Ortos on 25/04/2008 23:51:23 AF's imo is fine as they are. Theyre just too expensive to fly. Totally agree with OP. Flying one ATM, fitted for about 30m. Insures for 3m when 100% insured. Great ships. Their price is completely in line with other tech 2 frigates. I don't hear people saying interceptors are too expensive? The difference is that inties are USEFUL. AF's arnt. Then, assuming that's the case, the price is not the real problem here, right? If there price were to be dropped.. say, to 1/3 or so? The MIGHT become useful as cheap fire support... Maybe to 1/4. They need to be cheaper than cruisers...
Ne nehn	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:52:00 - [11] Oh, and to the "lower mass" suggestion. That would effectively make the wolf a Vaga, wochooo, kaboom. just like that, you'd have a 30m vaga. Wich i'd choose over an actual vaga anyday.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 00:55:00 - [12] Edited by: Hannobaal on 26/04/2008 00:55:44 Originally by: Lance Fighter If there price were to be dropped.. say, to 1/3 or so? The MIGHT become useful as cheap fire support... Maybe to 1/4. They need to be cheaper than cruisers... They are tech 2 frigates. Their price is fully in line with other tech 2 frigates. If you don't think they are worth the price, then you are saying they don't perform as well as a tech 2 frigate should. I think it's pretty obvious what the fundamental problem would be in this case, and it is definitely not the price.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.26 01:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Ne nehn Oh, and to the "lower mass" suggestion. That would effectively make the wolf a Vaga, wochooo, kaboom. just like that, you'd have a 30m vaga. Wich i'd choose over an actual vaga anyday. Except that the wolf can barely scratch the paint on a shuttle from outside of 13 km, even with good skills and barrage ammo. And either way, the Wolf and Jaguar should be to the rifter what the Vagabond is to the Stabber. I think it's absurd to say they shouldn't. The mas on Heavy Assaults is about the same as their tech 1 equivalents. Yet the mass on Assault ships is huge compared to their tech 1 equivalents.
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.04.26 01:07:00 - [14] T1 cruisers are already dirt cheap. AFrigs will have to drop to say a million or two to compete. Not a workable solution. Insurance cost is based on mineral price not market price. Again not workable solution. If anything can be reduced it is inertia modifier not mass, else nanoed AFrigs go too fast. That is two edged sword though, it lowers the momentum at which you are plunging into web range and stops you cold possibly on too high orbit. Devs want AFrigs to be less affected by webs, just the solution they choose is not well accepted. The issue is AFrigs are too niche and between T1 cruisers, gank ceptors and nano HACs do not have any role. Easiest solution would be to make them more manoevroable and let them be just fun expensive ratting toys. Lets hope devs could come with something better but this could work too.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.26 01:12:00 - [15] I'd say a fitting niche for these is a cheap platform on wich to fit great guns. =)
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.04.26 01:20:00 - [16] Actually you can do that today! Put sentry drone into Ishkur and snipe away with your very own detachable BS gun. Have not heard much praise to that though.
Mr Hawkeye	Posted - 2008.04.26 03:12:00 - [17] Just give them more mid slots.....None of them have enough, imo. Also, can people give me an idea of what kinda situation in which an AF is better than a BC, that doesn't involve a ship-class-specific acceleration gate?
April Knox COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.04.26 05:25:00 - [18] AFs don't currently have a role, or if they do it's so narrow that it only make sense to fly them if you have one sitting in your hangar. Price is not the real issue, the issue here is making them good for something. anything.
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.26 06:00:00 - [19] Originally by: Mr Hawkeye Just give them more mid slots.....None of them have enough, imo. Also, can people give me an idea of what kinda situation in which an AF is better than a BC, that doesn't involve a ship-class-specific acceleration gate? Only one I can consider is maybe, just maybe, a Harpy or Enyo sniping at interceptors. And thats stretching a niche to death.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.04.26 06:01:00 - [20] I think the prob is that ppl try to compare them to tech 1 frigates. Tech 1 frigates role is SUICIDE TACKLER, so the tech 2 equiv is an inty. Whilst AFs have no real role in comparison to inties.
XrayZ Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.26 09:13:00 - [21] well, as i see it, AFs have the role to pwn frigs/cruisers in battle... but the mass is indeed a problem, alittle less and it would be perfect, come in and do as much dmg u can and then die. my 2 cents. --------------------------------------
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.04.26 10:16:00 - [22] the intended role of AF in the first place was to escort large ships and defend them against small stuff like inties and support them with firepower which you propably wont be able to do in their current state.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.26 10:20:00 - [23] Less mass and a 4th bonus is all they have ever needed. This would make them more survivable and worth flying. Even if they don't change them I'm gona carry on flying them anyway but meh.
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.04.26 10:37:00 - [24] Edited by: Scout McAlt on 26/04/2008 10:41:52 Edited by: Scout McAlt on 26/04/2008 10:40:30 Originally by: Ne nehn I've been thinking a bit today about assult frigs. My conclusion, theyre ok, but they die so easy. And when they die you loose so much money. Fixing assult frigs might not be harder then to bang up the insurance. If they paid out 9-12m when killed i'd have no problems bringing one to combat. Basically its down to build cost. Long time ago, CCP gave insurance on these ships at a price it would cost to build one, otherwise people would self destruct to make a profit. What you have today is people selling stuff they build at a profit throughout the t2 production chain, thus insurance value is never going to represent market price due to lack of supply of t2 components etc. The raw costs of producing a command ship, is around 20mil, which is cost of fuel etc for pos's to manufacture the components. Add in price of a t1 bc so that brings it upto around 40-50mil. Insurance is around 60mil so its pretty fair. However, players are greedy so charge more for the ship/components. Thats why they sell for 100-150mil+. The component maker needs to make a profit so does the seller etc. Unless you are part of a fair alliance that gives you ships at build cost, you are always going to pay a premium.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.04.26 10:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Hannobaal They are tech 2 frigates. Their price is fully in line with other tech 2 frigates. If you don't think they are worth the price, then you are saying they don't perform as well as a tech 2 frigate should. I think it's pretty obvious what the fundamental problem would be in this case, and it is definitely not the price. Insurmountable logic imo. As another poster pointed out, the price is determined by players - inflation on the market. NPC corps don't sell T2 ships - players do. And the price of AFs is indeed in line with the other T2 frigates (minnie ceptors cost 12m in molden heath. minnie AFs cost 12m in molden heath. I think I saw a hyena for 13m in molden heath... covops 11, sb about 10-11 I think). Nobody's complaining about those other T2 frigates' price, their insurance cost, their survivability, none of it. The AFs themselves need a bit of a retouch... in the meantime, I'll keep ratting 0.0 for isk to replace my 35M Wolf every time I lose it. Because even though it's broken, it's still fun to fly solo in lowsec with. л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.26 11:25:00 - [26] AFs are fine PvE ships. You can Rat pretty easily in a Retributions vs. Sansha/Blood or an Enyo can rip through Guristas. Just check dmg types cause it would be "inefficient" trying to rat Guristas in an Retribution For PvP only long range setups could be proved useful for taking down ceptors or frigs that actually want to fight you, as you are too slow to catch up. So you desperately need to be member of a gang, possibly aided by a dictor or sth. I see AF mainly in gate-camping fleets, still a bomber fills that role WAY better most of the times. AFs need to be way faster (base speed + mass) or get increased range bonuses to become useful. Price is fine and in-line with other T2 frigs. And cheaper is not "fixed" as mentioned. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! Introduce HEAT EMMITERÖ for the Pilgrim

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