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Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 04:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sooo, just recently had a corp theft for the first time. (I know this is a part of EVE and I've seen it happen to plenty other corps) But this time is the first time I've been a director of a corp when it happened. Luckily it wasn't anything too big...
This being said... IS THERE REALLY NO LOG OR ANY WAY TO FIND WHO TOOK OUR STUFF FROM OUR HANGAR??? I MEAN COME ON CCP!!!!
If you can steal in this game, there should AT LEAST be a way for us to clearly see who did it in a log. It's ridiculous that you would have to put everything into cans to see an actual log of who went in. HOW HARD IS IT TO PUT A LOG ON THE HANGAR ITSELF??? I'll accept that somebody stole our stuff and that we need to fix our security, but seriously? No log to at least see what's going in and out??? I'm just at a loss for words on this one... If somebody can possibly tremendously hurt you by stealing, then why can't we even get a chance to tremendously make them regret they did it...? It's almost like creating the game specifically for that... and there being no repercussions. How are people supposed to have semi-trustworthy and convenient safe areas in which corp members don't get ripped off at any given time by other equal member corps...? Nobody/no corp in this game can even figure out who the person was that did it, so that they can end future thefts.
It's so simple but evidently too much of puzzle for you guys to have realized this... Is there any plan in the future to put a log into item/ship hangars for POS's?
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Psychotic Monk
The Hebrew In Me
Pinked
93
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Posted - 2012.03.02 04:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
How hard is it to put in an audit container? |
Tora Bushido
Count With Teddy Mercenaries
Stay Calm Don't Panic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
How hard..... mmmm...... nevermind.... 
My resists to bad posts are 78-89-83-90 ....... The metal head plate increased it by 5%.
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Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1664
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
But reading the corps mail with in-fighting, suspicions and paranoia while seemingly getting away scott free is the best bit.
Check members hangers.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Garven Dreis
Count With Teddy Mercenaries
Stay Calm Don't Panic
7
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Or regulating what hangers members can access. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
The Aurora Shadow
837
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Posted - 2012.03.02 11:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
I bet you did it.
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
54
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Posted - 2012.03.02 12:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote: Sooo, just recently had a corp theft for the first time. (I know this is a part of EVE and I've seen it happen to plenty other corps) But this time is the first time I've been a director of a corp when it happened. Luckily it wasn't anything too big...
This being said... IS THERE REALLY NO LOG OR ANY WAY TO FIND WHO TOOK OUR STUFF FROM OUR HANGAR??? I MEAN COME ON CCP!!!!
..snip...
The important thing in these cases isn't "who" but "how".
In other words a witch hunt isn't going to solve the problem and it's not going to do corp morale any good. I can imagine that you're angry but as corp lead the best thing you can do now is just announce the bad news in a "matter of fact" way (if that is even necessary) and learn from it. Be angry behind closed doors but don't get other people upset about it.
What I'm reading in your post that would alarm me if I were responsible for corp security is that apparently you have set up something whereby all members have access to either other members' stuff or to corp assets that are not intended to be "free to take".
Maybe if you post something about how you have security set up we can help you improve it.
T- |
Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 15:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm aware of how to improve security. That isn't the issue. and until Tinu Moorhsum posted, every post above his was either crap or something I already stated in my first post of not being an issue.
Cans have a size limit to them, therefor limiting organizing space at times. They're not hard to put in the hangars, but can cause a headache sometimes when it comes to organizing. And I know they're cheap, but why the hell should I have to spend ISK to buy a bunch of containers just because they have logs? That should be free.... I'm more pissed about there being a ******* combat log which, lets be honest, is only used to see how much damage you just did to some poor guy, but no audit log for a hangar in a POS.
We wanted/tried to allow all members have access to items in our low/med/high tabs of the hangar. No problem if somebody needs some mod or ammo... It allows for members to have hangar access to our POS and not feel stranded in our system with nothing to defend themselves. They have always been restricted access to the tabs with more expensive, shiny, t2 mods. Somebody almost cleared out our low/med tabs in our hanger(s) except for a few things. Like i said, the theft wasn't "big" but a theft none-the-less.
As far as steps taken to find the culprit, the other Directors and I have been keeping it real low key. I have narrowed it down to a handful of guys who have the rights and have been in our system before/recently. I have sent a mail to them, asking for there full api key and shortly after they give it to us, they can simply reset their keys. They have no reason to be afraid of this or not trust us, we've never wronged any of our members and if they have a problem with it, they can leave...
As far as new security steps, I will be putting in audit cans because there's no other way to audit our stuff. Then I will clearly be restricting access for non-director members to only be able to give and not take from the hangars. I really don't want to do this because it's very inconvenient for us all when either a director is around and our members can get a needed mod or ammo or if we are on... we have to constantly stay in the system or go back to the system to pull things out for them.
Please no more useless ignorant posts like this: Quote:Tora Bushido: How hard..... mmmm...... nevermind.... |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
1688
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Posted - 2012.03.02 16:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd just steal the cans.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Sir Lomax
Double-Down
Narwhals Ate My Duck
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 16:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
I get the idea of the whole "public bear cave" were all the little bears can share 'equally' among each other. I get that... itGÇÖs a little socialistic in a pure capitalistic environment but to each their own.
1.Issue about your idea and I think this really more of a data logistics problem. So letGÇÖs say CCP adds a log to a station box. Each little tiny letter value has a data size value that in a game with thousands of stations and thousands of players would vary quite a bit and be quite large. Where is the data stored. Locally on your computer drive like chat logs? If thatGÇÖs the case wouldnGÇÖt that data log change each time you open a box that was touched by another account? This would then affect the speed of the game because of just THAT much more data being transferred from the Eve client/server to your computer. ItGÇÖs not like the chat log because the chat log is really only your client to your computer. The processing happens on a GÇ£localGÇ¥ level vs. server to computerGǪ each and every time the GÇ£shared bear boxGÇ¥ was used. This would require quite a bit of code writing and data flow management for something the game isnGÇÖt even aboutGǪ. Which is capitalism. Its GÇ£out of scopeGÇ¥ as they like to say.
2.ItGÇÖs a public box. It wasnGÇÖt ever meant to be managed, watched over, monitored, inspected for use. Think of it like a trashcan you created that is outside and even bums have access too. Your trash is valuable in quantity apparently, you just discovered this IGÇÖm guessing because of your tears on it being gone. Its MENT to be accessed by everyone.
---- IGÇÖm going to tell you a story because I have nothing pending with work at the momentGǪ WAAYYYY back in 1993GǪ when I was in high school. My friend and I would sit at our little Pentium 166GÇÖs and search IP blocks for GÇ£open shared drivesGÇ¥. Microsoft used to have this fun way of sharing data by giving it the capability of clicking a setting sharing rights to documents and drives with the something called GÇ£EVERYONEGÇ¥. This feature was represented by a little tiny world picture. And what the unknowing or uninformed person didnGÇÖt realize and probably should have known is, that really meant EVERYONE! All that was needed to find this shared document/file/DRIVE was simply the right program and the IP #. This was long before shared IP #s so each computer on the web had its very own IP address. All you needed to do was type in a IP block GǪ say 109.201.22.1GǪ or in the case of the program you could just go 109.201.xxx.xxx Which browsed ALLL the ips in that block for shared to EVERYONE documents/files/drives. As dumb as you think that may beGǪ people did it. People shared everything, a lot. We changed resumes, boot folders, any file that computer wasnGÇÖt currently using we had full edit rights onGǪ and we did. Changed family pictures aroundGǪ deleted stuffGǪ anything a 16 year old could think to do, we did.
Moral of the storyGǪ You sir, let EVERYONE access your stuffGǪ All the thief did was, added some beers and a desire for attention that dad never gave them. The only one real person to blame in this story is yourself, donGÇÖt blame CCP for giving you enough rope to hang yourself.
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Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 17:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
First of all, I must applaud your ignorance. Even though most of what you said was true, it was also truly ignorant.
1) Lol, out of all the people who use logs and know what they do and how they work, I would be one of the top guys to know about it. It's my real life job... All you would have to do to fix a space problem for the logs is to have them overwrite with say a time limit or size limit... These logs can be saved on your system or their servers. It would be smarter to have the game save it on your system though. You think these logs would be so big that they would cause the client on your system to be slow? That is ridiculous. Windows and Unix/Linux logs spit out 50 times or even thousands of times more data than a log would be for a simple hangar or two and I don't see them crashing or slowing any systems on a normal basis. These logs would be child's play on your own system, so don't give me that "data logistics" ****. I'm well aware of the power it takes to process this stuff, and you have blown it WAY out of proportion.
2) Ok so if you're in a Wormhole, and you need other corp/alliance members to live there to defend it... How are you supposed to equip those pilots when they're running low on ammo/drones? How are they supposed to live somewhere that doesn't have supplies? You can't. It's impossible. People need this stuff, meaning they NEED access to it. My "public bear cave" is not so the we can "share equally" amongst others. It's because it's a necessity and without it, a huge management headache.
You're making another ignorant mistake thinking I have tears because some stuff is gone... Psh, that stuff was a drop in the bucket, in fact, i didn't pay for most of it. I don't care as much it being gone/stolen but I do care that it doesn't happen again and possibly on a larger scale.
What have I done to insult you? You're parents beat you when you were younger or something? Or you just having a ****** day at work...? That little story you told me is **** I used to do too. Back when security was nothing, and there were no granular permissions or logs, it only took a 5 year old to realize he could hack everything with no repercussions. So don't act like you're some computer genius. Face it, you're not... And half the people on these forums probably know a hell of a lot more than you do...
The problem is for somebody to take something from a hangar, there is only one permission, and that is "take". Nothing else, no granular permissions for anything on it. It's like having a server and you can only set permissions at the drive level. Which for anybody trying to play around on your system, is like childsplay. So, not including tabs, which I'm not gonna make for every member, there is basically only a yes or no on most of the stuff stored. For those people who need that access all i can do is say yes. And if I can't really stop them from taking whatever they want, I should be able to at least see who is taking or putting in whatever is going through our hangar.
If there's a log for combat, there could be a log for a hangar too. So even though somebody may steal, at least I can stop them from ever doing it again. It's simple common sense.
Sir Lomax, grow the hell up. |
StonerPhReaK
Nasgul Collective
Cascade Imminent
31
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Posted - 2012.03.02 17:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
More time needs to be spent on your roles and getting to now your members. Give trusted people the ability to dish out stuff people need. You can give each tab a role even. There are allot of things at your disposal that can prevent corp theft. Most of them involve being active and knowing your people. |
Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 17:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yeah, I mean I guess the only thing really to do is make more tabs for different roles, it just clutters stuff though  Seems to be the easiest way of fixing the issue so far. But I would really like to see a log in the future. I'm pretty sure the majority of any corp/alliance director would love to see this as well. |
Sir Lomax
Double-Down
Narwhals Ate My Duck
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 18:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
dang... u mad bro? |
Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 18:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nope, just trying to clear things up for you. Cuz it seemed like the only reason you left that flaming pile of post was because you were mad at something and you didn't actually want to help or even give an educated opinion about my OP. And there was no reason for you to do that. |
Sir Lomax
Double-Down
Narwhals Ate My Duck
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 18:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote:Nope, just trying to clear things up for you. Cuz it seemed like the only reason you left that flaming pile of post was because you were mad at something and you didn't actually want to help or even give an educated opinion about my OP. And there was no reason for you to do that.
Dont b mad bro. Hugs? |
Slider VII
First Flying Wing Inc
16
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Posted - 2012.03.02 18:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
You know, there is a simple solution...
1 - Remove access to the corporate hanger access except for the CEO and directors.
2 - Set your hanger views to read-only.
3 - If someone wants something from the hanger then they ask for it and the CEO and/or a director gets the item out of the hanger for the corp member.
This eliminates the headaches and the tears.
If you think that this a flame post, sorry that you are mis-guided. Just posting some common sense.
-Slider VII
Target Practice anyone?
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Sir Lomax
Double-Down
Narwhals Ate My Duck
0
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Posted - 2012.03.02 18:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Slider VII wrote:You know, there is a simple solution...
1 - Remove access to the corporate hanger access except for the CEO and directors.
2 - Set your hanger views to read-only.
3 - If someone wants something from the hanger then they ask for it and the CEO and/or a director gets the item out of the hanger for the corp member.
This eliminates the headaches and the tears.
If you think that this a flame post, sorry that you are mis-guided. Just posting some common sense.
Increase security based on common sense? YOU SIR need to GROW UP! And quit flaming people! |
Amber Thetawaves
Mong's Marauders
12
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Posted - 2012.03.02 19:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote:I'm more pissed about there being a ******* combat log which, lets be honest, is only used to see how much damage you just did to some poor guy, but no audit log for a hangar in a POS.
LOL there's so much more to it
why you mad bro? |
Tidurious
Eve Defence Force
Fatal Ascension
140
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Posted - 2012.03.02 23:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
How hard... mmm....
No really, it was me. So sorry, but thanks for all your stuff. |
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Garven Dreis
Count With Teddy Mercenaries
Stay Calm Don't Panic
9
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Posted - 2012.03.02 23:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote:I'm aware of how to improve security. [Removed tears]
In that case, I don't see the issue. Anything else would be a suggestion.
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Taylor Schaffle
Pinnacle Incorporated
0
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Posted - 2012.03.03 06:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Garven Dreis wrote:Taylor Schaffle wrote:I'm aware of how to improve security. [Removed tears] In that case, I don't see the issue. Anything else would be a suggestion.
Suggestions was really what I was looking for but I was also pissed that I noticed there was no hangar log. I would really like to put this to CCP's attention. Even though i know they probably won't care... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
64
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Posted - 2012.03.03 10:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Shrinkage is a fact of life for every RL business - 1-2% of sales is considered normal in retail which is about the same as the operating margin for most ventures (so they could double their profit if they would manage to eliminate shrinkage).
Just learn to plan with it:
You already did have more restricted access permissions for expensive modules which is good.
Next step would be to control how much of the cheap modules you keep stocked in your public hangars - do you really need all 30 warp disruptors in the public hangar or would 10 suffice when you restock every few days?
Remind people about giving back items they have "borrowed" from public hangars (obviously doesn't apply for consumables such as ammo).
Be a little more selective/cautious in your recruitment process (how come you didn't have API keys with sufficient permissions from the get-go?).
Try a more fine-grained permission management ("director can do everything, everyone else can't do anything" only leads to burnout and frustration) and always consider "how much damage could he inflict?" vs "how much isk/time/effort has he invested so far?" when handing out roles.
Keep your eyes open for early signs of burnout or serious discontent. Try to manage these issues before they become threatening.
Don't trust anyone. You can give other people access to goods without trusting them not to steal anything.
It's a question of mindset and expectations, not of actions. You sound terribly butthurt and the most likely reason for this is that you honestly thought your corp was populated by trustworthy saints only.
but "lock down everything" is probably the worst possible response to a theft that - in your own words - wasn't even significant isk-wise. |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
76
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Posted - 2012.03.03 11:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:
Try to be neutral in your first reactions - "Where did these items go?" as opposed to "Who stole these items ?!?"
Yelling theft early does not only ruin relations with your corp-mates, it can also turn innocent behavior into actual thefts ("if he thinks I'm a thief then I might as well act like one")
This is very important. I personally wouldn't fall under the above listed psychology, but my mindset would go more like this:
"He keeps accusing us of stealing stuff. Why doesn't he trust us? He's being an a**hole. F*** him! I can't take his sh*t any longer. I'm leaving corp, but just to stick it to him for being such a prick about everything, I'm gonna steal everything I can."
Jumping to accusations will polarize people against you and if the accusations are about theft, those accusations will become self-fulfilling prophecies.
Also, you can still provide lots of access to your members (even the brand new ones) by using Audit Log cans. Then you will be able to track down your thief in the future and exact revenge or post his crime all over C&P.
Sig tanking is the new black |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
59
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Posted - 2012.03.03 13:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote:I'm aware of how to improve security.
....snip....
I ran a corp for a few years and we used to maintain a "free stuff" tab in the corp hangar. We used to encourage people to throw stuff in there from rats they looted if they weren't planning on selling/using it.
It was made clear to everyone that "free stuff" meant that there would be no control over what got taken out.
Some people put stuff in, some took stuff out. Every now and then someone took it all and melted it down (I assume). At first this happened on a regular basis, which is unavoidable if you maintain such a hangar, but my attitude was always that if someone needed the isk badly enough to risk stealing it that I would have given it to them anyway.
Later on, we decided to clear out that hangar ourselves because doing nothing about the stuff getting stolen would **** people off. When it started to accumulate we took the stuff out ourselves and melted it down and made ship hulls with the minerals, which we then handed out to people when they did something special or when they lost a ship in PVP. After that the amount of theft dropped and when it did happen I could tell a little white lie (namely that I did it) in order to avoid it affecting morale or starting witch hunts.
T- |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
582
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Posted - 2012.03.05 17:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote:First of all, I must applaud your ignorance. Even though most of what you said was true, it was also truly ignorant.
1) Lol, out of all the people who use logs and know what they do and how they work, I would be one of the top guys to know about it. It's my real life job... All you would have to do to fix a space problem for the logs is to have them overwrite with say a time limit or size limit... These logs can be saved on your system or their servers. It would be smarter to have the game save it on your system though. You think these logs would be so big that they would cause the client on your system to be slow? That is ridiculous. Windows and Unix/Linux logs spit out 50 times or even thousands of times more data than a log would be for a simple hangar or two and I don't see them crashing or slowing any systems on a normal basis. These logs would be child's play on your own system, so don't give me that "data logistics" ****. I'm well aware of the power it takes to process this stuff, and you have blown it WAY out of proportion.
...
Dear Mr. "I log things in RL and know what I'm talking about",
Please help us understand how your client-side logging scheme would work when the thief steals all your stuffs while *your* client is offline.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Silus Morde
Canseraga Mining Division
BMS Fusion
0
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Posted - 2012.03.05 17:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
In the real world I have noticed there is a minority that will steal anything that is not nailed to the floor, and to be honest, some of that as well. So why wouldn't they steal in EVE. Just tighten things up.. I suggest the CCP leaves it as is, always a place for criminals in a game like this.. not my style of play but EVE would be ever so boring without thieves, pirates, mercenaries, and gankers. Don't like it when they hit me much but I love the feeling of danger here. my opinion. |
Jazzmyn
The Ghost Division
11
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Posted - 2012.03.06 09:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Taylor Schaffle wrote: If you can steal in this game, there should AT LEAST be a way for us to clearly see who did it in a log.
Now that would be too easy and ruin all the fun. Theres many ways to find proof who did it and solving a corp theft is actually interesting part of the game. Almost every wormhole corp i have been in has been robbed in some point and i almost wait for it to happen so i can start guessing who is the thief and who worked with him. Solving spaceship thefts can be better than reading Hercule Poirot novel.
Fight ! Fight ! Never surrender, never surrender ! |
Sir Lomax
Double-Down
Narwhals Ate My Duck
2
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Posted - 2012.03.06 16:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Taylor Schaffle wrote:First of all, I must applaud your ignorance. Even though most of what you said was true, it was also truly ignorant.
1) Lol, out of all the people who use logs and know what they do and how they work, I would be one of the top guys to know about it. It's my real life job... All you would have to do to fix a space problem for the logs is to have them overwrite with say a time limit or size limit... These logs can be saved on your system or their servers. It would be smarter to have the game save it on your system though. You think these logs would be so big that they would cause the client on your system to be slow? That is ridiculous. Windows and Unix/Linux logs spit out 50 times or even thousands of times more data than a log would be for a simple hangar or two and I don't see them crashing or slowing any systems on a normal basis. These logs would be child's play on your own system, so don't give me that "data logistics" ****. I'm well aware of the power it takes to process this stuff, and you have blown it WAY out of proportion.
...
Dear Mr. "I log things in RL and know what I'm talking about", Please help us understand how your client-side logging scheme would work when the thief steals all your stuffs while *your* client is offline.
What I think would make the OP happy is if every single container that could ever be possibly accessed by more than one person, had a accessable "loot history" that would be stored on the CCP server side.
I'm sure he would respond with "wait wait wait, i'm not saying EVERY container in the game, I just want ship maint bays" But you see once you add just one loot log like that, everyone and thier sister wants it for all of them and has a just as convincing and ascinine reason why. Its a slippery slope that can simply be solved by increasing security. |
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