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3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:41:00 - [1] The Gladiator GameÆs that happened recently has un fairly under gone attacks by many people who have no idea what actually happened there so I feel I should actually give a brief explanation. There was at the start a Political address from candidates of the C.S.M Elections along with questions and answers, each candidate trying to canvas peopleÆs votes. A good number of individuals where present at this from all fields and races to here what the candidates had to say. Then came the games but not one slave was used to perform the combat only those capsuliers that had signed up for it in the same way one might for a tournament, there was only one difference between this and a normal tournament. In the Ship vs. Ship combat, it was up to the crowd weather any one who lost was podded or not, some my self-included voted mercy. Then came the indoor combat fights again it was between capsuliers only and the public voted who won, but since it was capsuliers only no one actually died since they awoke in a new body as we all do when podded or some thing happens to us. But no Slave or None Capsulier was involved in any of the combat what so ever which surprised me I was half expecting to see thousands of slave thrown to some salivating wild predator or laver hounds which would have left me feeling quite sick but nothing of the sort. Okay IÆm done bring on the insults and accusations and other things many of PIE and VV as well as a number of other will launch at me for saying all this, after all donÆt want to deny the closed minded there chance to be pompous and ignorant. But please remember you can never condone some thing unless you have tried it or seen it first hand! Oh while I was there I was able to give some slaves from the Amaarian station a lift in to high sec and arrange transport for them while I was in the area, they are currently dining on gourmet food and fine drinks with very wondrous accommodations. All of whom requested and where willing to return to the Republic and Federation though most opted for the Republic. Therefore, I was more than happy to facilitate transportation for.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:31:00 - [2] Not that this is really any of my business, but I think it's less the "what" than the "who" that's got people upset, pilot. All-capsuleer all the time or not, this was a battle sponsored by, arranged by, and in the honor of the Sani Sabik. Whether they were shedding blood over an altar on this particular occasion or not, the fact that you appeared there suggests complicity in their doings, even if it doesn't prove it. This isn't to say that you should not have gone, just that it doesn't take ignorance or closed-mindedness to find your participation objectionable. If you're going to expect fairness from others, pilot ... well, you know the rest, I'm sure. Fly safe.
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:38:00 - [3] ((I think CCP has been fairly adamant that the CSM elections are not an in-game event.)) I have to agree with Ms. Jenneth on this. It would be as if you were to tell the Electus Matari that you attended a slave auction in order to have a meal with a group of anti-slaver Amarrians. Even if you normally wouldn't condone the auction (or the gladiatorial event), the fact that you attended can very well color your reputation as a result. Ah the joys of interstellar politics.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:53:00 - [4] Edited by: 3ll3 on 01/05/2008 22:54:03 Mr Darkstar, I think you would find there is a major difference between Slave Auction and some thing that boils down to a what is pretty much a Tournament with Capsuliers be it with or with out ships. Though the only good reason for likes of me to go to such a thing as Slave Auction or Sale would be to break the Slaves out. Miss Jenneth, I still do not get at what your trying to say? From what I saw it was little more than a tournament which those Capssulier who participated got the chance to win a large prize. Edited For Spelling
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:01:00 - [5] Originally by: 3ll3 Miss Jenneth, I still do not get at what your trying to say? From what I saw it was little more than a tournament which those Capssulier who participated got the chance to win a large prize. Like I said, pilot, not so much "what" as "who." Perhaps a touch of "why," as well. PRETA is now recruiting!
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:19:00 - [6] Sorry I still don't Follow, is it becouse of the view point of the one who hosted the event or ant she belives in or the event it self?
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 01/05/2008 23:53:13 ... Gods and spirits ... Okay. Let me see if I can lay this out for you, pilot. We have Lady Reven Neferis, Thrice-illustrious Sovereign of Bloodveil and Self-Styled Goddess. We have Lady Neferis hosting a series of games, supposedly based on ancient Sani Sabik practices and carried out for the glory of Bloodveil, a Sani Sabik sect. The games being ritualistic in nature, the Sani Sabik, and Lady Neferis in particular, being a very occult-oriented lot, and you being voluntarily present for all of this.... ... Well, let's just say that it can be seen as much like turning up for a some "ceremony" Darth Sage might run and, when he asks you in verse to please stand in that arcane circle there, doing so. To the people taking offense to your participation, it doesn't matter that nobody was sacrificing babies this time around; you took part in a Sani Sabik ritual, and that's quite bad enough even without the baby-sacrificing. PRETA is now recruiting!
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:08:00 - [8] How can it be as bad if nothing like that actually happened? I know I wouldn't go if such a thing was to happen after all we capsuliers don't exactly die if you kill our bodies while a baby would, such a thing would be wrong hence why I wouldn't go to an event that involved the killing of children. Or have I the wrong end of the stick if you willplease pardon the expresion?
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:49:00 - [9] Originally by: 3ll3 Edited by: 3ll3 on 01/05/2008 22:54:03 Mr Darkstar, I think you would find there is a major difference between Slave Auction and some thing that boils down to a what is pretty much a Tournament with Capsuliers be it with or with out ships. I understood that there was a fairly heavy intent. However, I was trying to make the point that attendance of such an event, sponsored by certain groups, would create a situation of "guilty by association." Originally by: 3ll3 How can it be as bad if nothing like that actually happened? I know I wouldn't go if such a thing was to happen after all we capsuliers don't exactly die if you kill our bodies while a baby would, such a thing would be wrong hence why I wouldn't go to an event that involved the killing of children. Or have I the wrong end of the stick if you willplease pardon the expresion? Again, it is a situation of "guilty by association." The simple reality that you associated with those of the Sani Sabik faith would seem to indicate to those opposed to those views that you condoned or even supported those views. It's not a matter of whether you actually do or not, it simply boils down to the old phrase of "actions speak louder than words."
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:54:00 - [10] Edited by: 3ll3 on 02/05/2008 00:54:28 So by going to an event run by members of the Sani Sabik that makes me Sani Sabik? Edited For Spelling
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:00:00 - [11] Originally by: 3ll3 Edited by: 3ll3 on 02/05/2008 00:54:28 So by going to an event run by members of the Sani Sabik that makes me Sani Sabik? Edited For Spelling Yes and no. It means that you condone their views. For some people, that's all that they need to condemn you. Some people need even less.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:01:00 - [12] Edited by: 3ll3 on 02/05/2008 01:04:30 I don't follow? Sorry Edited Bit: So people just jump to conclusions be it correctly or incorrectly with out all the facts?
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:04:00 - [13] Well, look at it this way: If I were to attend a well-publicized service in an Amarrian chapel run by Archbishop, I'd likely draw some criticism from people who don't care for the Amarrian faith. Now, maybe I would have had some other reason for being there; maybe I might even be hostile to the faith. But the simple fact that I had attended would lead a great many to wonder if I were not a supporter of or considering a conversion to that faith myself. It wouldn't matter whether the service had nothing to do with slavery. By attending, by standing when told to stand, sitting when told to sit, singing when told to sing, I'd have been going through the ritual, participating in the faith ... and would likely have some explaining to do if I had to answer to, for instance, Ushra'Khan. PRETA is now recruiting!
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:06:00 - [14] Oh my that sounds like such people would be closed minded and jumping to conclusions with out weighing up all the facts and angles first?
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:07:00 - [15] Originally by: 3ll3 I don't follow? Sorry I'm not quite sure how to explain it more clearly. I'll try though. To the people condemning you, it probably goes something like this. 1. Bloodveil holds a tournament based on old Sani Sabik rituals. 2. You attend said rituals, and don't condemn the Bloodveil for holding them. 3. You are clearly supporting the Sani Sabik faith, and therefore must be condemned yourself. Granted, I don't quite follow the logic either. It's not like you've come out of this tournament showering praises on the Sani Sabik faith. Then again, "guilty by association" rarely listens to logic.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:11:00 - [16] I see Mr Darkstar, so like What Miss Jenneth is saying that people are being closed minded and jumping to conclusions?
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:38:00 - [17] Originally by: 3ll3 I see Mr Darkstar, so like What Miss Jenneth is saying that people are being closed minded and jumping to conclusions? I'm not sure I fully understand why they must necessarily be close-minded in this respect. Jumping to conclusions? Most definitely. However, your presence, in a way, does condone their action, in the same way that buying or selling directly from such people would support them and their cause. Its a question of action and influence. If you have enough influence, simply being present would lend credence to their cause and case, even by those NOT being close-minded. Perhaps a metaphor with non-religious trappings would help here. Say you knew a man. Head of a small corporation or such, who associated with a known pirate. I suppose the first question would be whether he knew that his associate was a known pirate. If he did, would it not seem to indicate that the man himself condones piracy? I suppose what must be happening here is that we've all begun to argue the same point in different words.
Nicoletta Mithra Amarr Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:13:00 - [18] To make a proper argument out of it: (1) Bloodveil holds a tournament: the auctoramentum gladiatorum. (2) This tournament is a Sani Sabik ritual. (3) If you attend a Sani Sabik ritual, you tacitly agree with the Sani sabik "faith". (At the moment you attend without objecting to it) (4) If you agree with something at one moment, it's rather probable that you agree with it overall. (5) You attended the auctoramentum gladiatorum. -therefore- (5) It's rather probable that you are in agreement with the Sani Sabik. Here is another one: (1) Bloodveil holds a tournament: the auctoramentum gladiatorum. (2) This tournament is a Sani Sabik ritual. (3) If you attend a Sani Sabik ritual, then you don't oppose the Sani Sabik "faith" at the moment you attend without objecting to it. (4) If you oppose the Sani Sabik "faith" generally, then you wouldn't stop to oppose the Sani Sabik "faith" on a special occasion. (5) You attended the auctoramentum gladiatorum. (6) The Sani Sabik "faith" is opposed to the good of the collective. (7) If you aren't opposing forces that oppose the good of the collective, you aren't contributing to the collective. (8) If you aren't contributing to the collective, you are "generally suspect". -therefore- (1-4)->(9) Someone attending the auctoramentum gladiatorum can't be opposed to the Sani Sabik "faith" in general. -therefore- (5,9)->(10) You can't be opposed to the Sani Sabik "Faith" in general. -therefore- (6,7,8,10) You are "generally suspect". If you use your creativity, intellect and ability to reason, there are plenty formal logic arguments along these lines, and at least some of them are certainly valid and sound. It's only a intellectual exercise and as such rather boring, to reframe this argument in a way that doesn't involve Amarrian moral and ethics but Human Rights. And everyone attending there is of course regarded with a good portin of skepticism by me in the future. The thing is, I don't have to do this in a formalized way, as I, as a single person, can keep track of this informally. The fact, that the standings alteration is announced publicly speaks indeed for the open mindedness of the ones alterating, as this gives the persons affected the chance to talk about the changes, etc.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:42:00 - [19] Miss Mithra, I did not understand a single word of that unless your asking if IÆm Amarrian or of the Amrraian Faith which I have to answer I am neither as I am Intikani. MR Darkstar, sorry no it would not indicate well to me any way that the individual is associated with pirates or a pirate him self or her self, for me just because you know some one who does things doesnÆt make you one of those or part of it. As for what I mean by close-minded as it sounds as in those who all ready have made their minds up with out actually trying to find out and using only what they are told by others. And IÆll have to take your word for it as Miss Mithra has me so confused with what she just said my heads is spinning.
Nicoletta Mithra Amarr Gemeinschaft interstellarer Soeldner	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:59:00 - [20] Captain 3ll3, my apologies for confusing you. I assure you that the very opposite was my intention. My point was, that you neither need to be closed-minded, nor jump to conclusions to set standings for someone because he is attending a Sani Sabik ritual. I'll think about another, more simple logic argument, that shows this and post it with some commentary in the near future. Fly well N. Mithra
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:57:00 - [21] Originally by: 3ll3 MR Darkstar, sorry no it would not indicate well to me any way that the individual is associated with pirates or a pirate him self or her self, for me just because you know some one who does things doesnÆt make you one of those or part of it. As for what I mean by close-minded as it sounds as in those who all ready have made their minds up with out actually trying to find out and using only what they are told by others. And IÆll have to take your word for it as Miss Mithra has me so confused with what she just said my heads is spinning. I think that, in this case, you either misunderstand me or the meaning of the word condone. On the off-chance that the latter is true, I'll throw the definition out there: condone: (V.) to give tacit approval to, or to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like). In this case, I'm referring to both, as both apply depending on the viewpoint you are seeing this through.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:53:00 - [22] Mr Darkstar, So it's all to do with differing points of view? If so then I can understand and respect that even if I find their point of view is weird since I'm neither Sani Sabik or Support the things they do. Miss Mithra, Thank You!
Stekanis Darkstar Minmatar SMCD	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:29:00 - [23] Originally by: 3ll3 Mr Darkstar, So it's all to do with differing points of view? If so then I can understand and respect that even if I find their point of view is weird since I'm neither Sani Sabik or Support the things they do. I would say that most things rely on different points of view. So, in short, that's pretty much it. Indeed, it would seem that one only has to look at the Federation itself to understand that many different perspectives exist on all things. Well, it seems I've gone and been horribly confusing to you, Mr. 3ll3. For that, I apologize. I can only hope that Ms. Mithra or perhaps even Ms. Jenneth can bring more clarity than I seemed capable of.
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:10:00 - [24] That's okay and thank you for your time Mr Darkstar
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:11:00 - [25] I think the problem here, 3ll3, is that what you saw as "an event organized by one of Sani Sabik" is by others seen and was advertised by the organizer as "a Sani Sabik ritual". Attending rituals of a faith is usually seen as condonement of said faith, unless the attendee specifically disclaims this, or uses the attendance to object to the faith in some other means. "What does it matter if she is a blooder and a murderer? I can still go to her events and be friends, as long as she is not busy murdering anyone while I am there!" -- this reasoning does not sit well with everyone. Elsebeth
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:24:00 - [26] Heya EeseÆ HowÆs it going? Wiggles Happily I still can't understand this at all sorry Else' but it was just an event and nothing more, but I guess people are free to construe what they wish from it. Though I am still puzzled by peopleÆs reactions as there where no Slaves slaughtered or any other such atrocities to actually cry out about. Yes it was run by a member of the Sani Sabik but other than that I see nore understand how there could be any thing to get peoples backs up? If there had been things that where unsavoury I would have probably had made my apologies and left but there was not just a bunch of capsuliers dukeing it out for a prize. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to argue I just feel my self-struggling to comprehend what all the fuse is about since despite who ran it and how it was advertised to how it really was.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:34:00 - [27] "Yes, of course I go have drinks with slavers every now and then! When they are not slaving, you see, they are perfectly decent people." Sorry. Does not fly. I believe you when you say you do not get it, though. You were never the politically brightest pilot in the galaxy, despite whatever else you do have going for you. Else
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:38:00 - [28] Sorry does not fly....I don't follow? Well You are quite correct I tend to say it how I see it even if it means calling a spade a spade heh Hope to see you and the others around space Else' say hi to them for me please?
Admiral Derooy Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.05.03 16:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 03/05/2008 16:11:55 Hmmm, well if we approach this on a logical level , as some seem to claim, you have to be aware of how societies work in general. Sani Sabik is an Organisation, a system, well rather a subsystem if ya like in the overall point of view. It shares some similarities with other groups, such as CVA PIE etc. 1. A System does not feel, hence any emotion or desire is not there or non existend 2. A System continues the run, even if indiviuals inside the system die and wither away, others will replace them, the system looks to it to preserve itself. 3. There is no individual inside a system, as individualism is counter productive. So with the Above points in mind, does it really matter if ya decided to join the gladiator events or not? was it really worth threatening people openly and afterwards ya spread out as rubble?
3ll3 Gallente Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.03 22:02:00 - [30] Threatning people? CVA? PIE? Organisations? Sub-Systems? I'm compleatly lost now @_@

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