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Let's start with removing hi sec ice to low sec!

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Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 13:37:00 - [1] I think someone missed the repeated comments from the Devs that they were not going to "force" anyone into LowSec.... I also think that a few players really don't understand the economic impact of heavily restricting POS fuel supplies Moving Ice to LowSec means it won't be mined in near enough supply; as "proof" I will just point that ice prices have DOUBLED since the Jihadswarm started. Just think what happens when all the ice in the universe is available only in a dozen systems in LowSec. I doubt the good Dr. and his spreadsheets is going to think its a good idea As for the "What about all the POSs I already see there" crowd, well there isn't a lot of production coming out of them as can be evidenced by the moon material market.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 14:32:00 - [2] Originally by: Malcanis Ice prices have doubled, you say?! GOD BLESS YOU GOONS! Yep, which just makes it more profitable for macros to mine ice...... God bless the Goons for contributing to the problem
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Gridwalker Give me just one compelling reason why you feel that I should be compelled or required to spend time in lo sec? -Grid I know you were addressing someone else, but... You should feel compelled to go to lowsec by the allure of better isk making opportunities. Same goes for 0.0. There should be an obvious scale of "where to go to get rich" as a theme that is proportional to the amount of risk you face. See, here is one of the reasons these arguements always go wrong. MANY of us don't really care about making more ISK; just because we can make 30% more doing the same activities somewhere else is NOT inventive to move. We play for what we perceive is fun, not to amass great wealth; ISK for the sake of ISK doesn't interest me or I would be a lot more aggressive running my missions What ISN'T fun is trying to do your daily activities while constantly watching over your shoulder and scanning everyone that comes through local. Its fun occasionally, but no way I would ever consider mining and doing that. So again, what incentive do I have to even consider LowSec for a home? If I had to go there to get Ice to fuel the POS I would just shut it down instead as it really isn't worth the effort and the return isn't worth the risk....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Una D That is easy. Force players out of the NPC corps. Just make it so they can't do anything useful in them (no using barges, no criminal acts, no missions above L2, no going to 0.0). That will force the farmers in to player created corps. Than you just make the timer to jump corporation 48+ hours and war decc them. Players get PvP, police the macros and everybody is happy (except for the fact that prices would go up quite a bit). And you just alienated 37% of your experienced and ACTIVE players. If even 1/2 of those quit CCP's wallet would be hit considerably.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin 1. Prove it Don't have too. CCP agrees appearantly and has already stated numerous times they are not going to force players out of HighSec because it won't work. The quotes aren't that hard to find if you look. Quote: 2. But not high enough of a value that requires you to be playing the game to mine as opposed to running a bot No bots running here. Nor on the machines of anyone I know. Huh, guess we are playing the game and in HighSec too. Funny that. Quote: 3.how do you know? Because we play with dedicated HighSec Carebears? We ARE the people you are talking about? Somehow I have a feeling we are a bit more in touch with how they think than you are Quote: 4.Making lowsec/0.0 ores more valuable will not ever match the afk isk and convinience of running a bot. What is the fascination you have about all HighSec players running bots? Quote: 5. Really because the first few pages of this thread say that if you can mine in lowsec you can mine in 0.0 no problem are you saying there are people that will kill you in 0.0!? lol, reading comprehension ftl. Of COURSE they will shoot you, but the previous posts assumed that you would make the arrangements to be BLUE to them. If you ARE blue, then you are fairly safe unless you are in a contested area. If they won't let you be Blue, then you stay in HighSec. Simple enough. I'm still waiting for proof that a mass migration to LowSec will happen if this plan is implemented. Seems to me that every carrot or force in the past has just had the opposite result... And then there are CCP's Devs specifically stating they aren't going to force anyone out of HighSec, meaning the whole conversation is mute....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Una D You meant the elite PvPers that whine about lack of PvP but have alts in NPC corps to protect them from war deccs? Ah yes they would be ****ed but I figured it balances out the threads whine for more easy targets. :) Read the Dev Blog. 37% of all ACTIVE players are in HighSec; active being defined as more than 2m skill points, logged in multiple times during the week and making multiple jumps while logged in. If you count inactive and under 2m sp alts, that number is 51%. So, of those 37% of all players how many do you think will leave the game if their preferred play-style is eliminated? Even if a large percentage of those are alts, how many alt accounts will be canceled if they no longer fulfill the reason they were started? Empty bank accounts want to know....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Besides, I already said I wasn't supporting the ice suggestion. I was simply addressing the "why should I feel compelled" question. And yet the question is still there and the answer is the same; higher rewards will not necessarily make players move. To do so those rewards will have to outstrip the losses considerably. How high do the rewards have to be in order to offset the loss of ONE faction-fitted CNR to lowsec pirates for a player that missions a couple of nights a week? You can argue all you want about not "needing" a faction-fitted ship, but the simple fact is many players LIKE their shiney toys. CCP is never going to raise rewards to the point where even losing one occasionally will still make the player ISKies, so LowSec is going to remain fairly empty. My question to the OP, which others have asked and still remains unanswered, is WHY do you care if we are in LowSec or not? Play how you like, we will play how we like. Nerf our play style too much and we leave for other games that fit our needs. shrugs Every player enjoys the game for their own reasons, if they are no longer enjoying it they will leave. It really is that simple. This isn't like RL where your only way out is to die....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:10:00 - [8] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin New Players will not quit because they can't mine ice This is a graph And you just proved our points as to LowSec and if players would go there: There are only 2 "Popular" PvP ships in that list, and both of them are also excellent PvE ships. The number of PvE players and ships far exceeds the number of PvP ones for many reasons, but most of those factors include the reasons we are in HighSec and not LowSec/0.0
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I don't want you just the ice You already have ice, and better than we do.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin How often do you find sniper fit ships taking out barges? with the current way local works you would know well before the offending party even loaded grid barges would be well in warp How do you mine ice when you dock everytime someone enters local? With a base of 10 minutes cycle time you might as well just stay docked because unlike mining for normal Ore, if you abort in the middle you don't get a partial cycle; you get nothing.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I'm not sure any one considers mining ice fun or soothing of course that is just an assumption Like many other assumptions people are making in this thread and spouting as proof, your assumptions are wrong. After a long, annoying day the thrum of mining lasers can actually be soothing. If your machine can run with its sound on, of course
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.03 23:52:00 - [12] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 03/05/2008 23:54:27 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby And then there are CCP's Devs specifically stating they aren't going to force anyone out of HighSec, meaning the whole conversation is mute.... 7. Provide a link to the quote or you are just typing. Took me a bit, stupid forum search function Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so. I think we've been saying that the whole time. About 2/3 down this thread: Link to Wrangler's comment NOW can we say this point is mute? He also said things like: Quote: And both playstyles are valid and needed, not everyone wants or should get out in low sec space. in the same thread.....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Cagot I don't like the idea of moving high-sec ice to low-sec - it would make POS operations even more expensive, and the economy doesn't need that. Yeah paying anything but rock bottom prices for ships must be rough how dare free markets not yield differentiating profits Explain how artificial price increases are part of a "free market". As for your mining in out of hte way places, how long would it be until the dozen or so ice belts in LowSec were heavily camped by pirates? I'm estimating 3 hours after DT if this was put into the game, effectively eliminating ice production. You still haven't proved to US this is a good idea. Since you are wanting to change an existing game feature, the burden of proof is on you. By the way, moving all ice belts into LowSec IS forcing players there. Both 0.0 AND HighSec players if they want to have a POS....

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