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Thryce	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:13:00 - [1] hi all, so i was thinking, if you took the map and split it into 4 equal halves like a crosshair in a scope. could you make 4 shards and make it to where when you get to the edge of said shard you go through gate and load into the neighboring shard. would that not ease the server load if there were 4 servers yet you could still play through all of them, go through a gate and presto, on a new server. is something like that possible? just a thought as i decend into a drunken stuper rc
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:15:00 - [2] Remember that the map is 3D, so you couldn't divide it exactly as you said. However, the notion of dividing it in some way and putting each area on a different server is interesting. But in other MMOs can you just step out of one server and into another? How is this different from nodes, anyway? I'm not really all that versed on this aspect of the Eve software though anyway.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:15:00 - [3] I think you mis-understand the design of Eve. There are HUNDREDS of "servers" that control Eve, over 240 CPUs in large blade centers. What makes Eve unique, and will never change, is that they tie to a single database structure that makes all of them function as "one".
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:18:00 - [4] if you mean split each system into different shards that wouldn't make sense. 1 computer already controls several systems at once. Not to mention almost all of the problems involving severe lag have the problem being all of the people being in 1 area. It's not the system that lags, it's the grid.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:19:00 - [5] Isn't that what a server node is? (Which allready exist, and a few systems have their own even.)
Thryce	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I think you mis-understand the design of Eve. There are HUNDREDS of "servers" that control Eve, over 240 CPUs in large blade centers. What makes Eve unique, and will never change, is that they tie to a single database structure that makes all of them function as "one". but what if one fourth of those hundreds of servers were dedicated to one fourth of the map? and somehow there where servers for just market information and so on.
Aadi Grox Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:28:00 - [7] That would only hurt things, the nodes should go where the demand is, not arbitrary geography
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:30:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 07/05/2008 01:32:43 Originally by: Aadi Grox That would only hurt things, the nodes should go where the demand is, not arbitrary geography This. It would serve no purpose whatsoever besides putting more strain on 1 quandrant should it be buisier while leaving other quandrants with extra servers.... Honestly i don't get how anyone could EVER think this could help anything. I mean it's the same servers as everywhere else. It's just nonsensical. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Thryce	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Aadi Grox That would only hurt things, the nodes should go where the demand is, not arbitrary geography well it was just a thought that i had, on a side note, does anyone have a bugged overview where it never stays where you want it.
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Thryce Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I think you mis-understand the design of Eve. There are HUNDREDS of "servers" that control Eve, over 240 CPUs in large blade centers. What makes Eve unique, and will never change, is that they tie to a single database structure that makes all of them function as "one". but what if one fourth of those hundreds of servers were dedicated to one fourth of the map? and somehow there where servers for just market information and so on. What if that was the case already? (as is the case)
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.07 02:12:00 - [11] Edited by: Blane Xero on 07/05/2008 02:12:36 Correct me if i am wrong. There are servers for logging in (Loginservers) Servers for Constellations, and sometimes for single systems (like jita) Servers for the skill system Servers for the market (And maybe contracts, but also that is possably on seperate servers) hence why the market is sometimes "Delayed" after a downtime, contracts stop working while everything else is working, skills train during downtime, etc.
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.07 03:42:00 - [12] i think the op meant individual systems. like 4 jitas.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.07 03:45:00 - [13] features and ideas forum is down there vvvvvv
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.05.07 07:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Thryce hi all, so i was thinking, if you took the map and split it into 4 equal halves like a crosshair in a scope. could you make 4 shards and make it to where when you get to the edge of said shard you go through gate and load into the neighboring shard. would that not ease the server load if there were 4 servers yet you could still play through all of them, go through a gate and presto, on a new server. is something like that possible? just a thought as i decend into a drunken stuper rc and that would change what ? :P we have this atm.... cluster of servers.... 100s of servers that make up one super computer. you hop into a new sys... voila.. new server :P
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.07 07:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Thryce well it was just a thought that i had, on a side note, does anyone have a bugged overview where it never stays where you want it. OP derails own thread. I like your work.
Reven Cordelle	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:10:00 - [16] Something like that would require a bit of a massive redesign for EVE's server systems considering its not and never has been sharded... It theoretically works but EVE prides itself on being one consistent universe with no server changes. This lets us talk to people 80 jumps away, just by opening a chat box. Add shards, and we lose that... giving Intel to your buddy over in the next shard about a gatecamp becomes impossible unless you're running a third party comms client. Queue much ranting from the low sec guys getting ganked because they couldn't get decent intel from their scout as they were in the next shard. You'd get server load with shards regardless. As far as I know, our mortal enemy, WoW has shards. WoW still suffers lag in busy places too. Lag is just what we get for using the internet too much.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Aadi Grox That would only hurt things, the nodes should go where the demand is, not arbitrary geography Nodes are reallocated to systems at downtime based on recent activity (cpu usage) for that system. If a system goes from a seeing a handful of players per day for several weeks, then is suddenly the scene of a massive 300 ship battle, it will lag horribly as that system is on a node shared by many others. This lag will also affect these other systems. If a system is gradually 'built up' with more and more average activity per day, it will be shared with less and less other systems to reduce competition for server resources.
Barzam School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:25:00 - [18] Sharding means hosting the same game on different and physically different locations. A player in one game will never see or be able to communicate with a player in another. Distributed load is a completely different aspect of having the same game over many physical locations. Eve-Online already has this, and are reworking the framework to use industry standard distributed computing.
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Thryce hi all, so i was thinking, if you took the map and split it into 4 equal halves like a crosshair in a scope. could you make 4 shards and make it to where when you get to the edge of said shard you go through gate and load into the neighboring shard. would that not ease the server load if there were 4 servers yet you could still play through all of them, go through a gate and presto, on a new server. is something like that possible? just a thought as i decend into a drunken stuper rc Short answer: No Each grid is effectively an instance already. CCP are trying to solve the problem of; a. loading objects into and out of a grid (and/or passing data between different SOL services on multiple hosts) by implementing HPC in the form of infiniband, b. finding ways to make certain SOL services distributable across multiple CPUs and, possibly, hosts. When they get (a) and (b) completed we should see significant performance improvements and, hopefully, no more 'node' crashed effecting people in multiple systems at one time. But... What we won't see is much improvement in large* fleet fights, and I would hazard a guess that although we won't see node crashes anymore we're just as likely to see grid crashes. * I haven't specified what 'large' because I suspect it's really always going to be <250 ships on the same grid before it starts to turn into powerpoint in space. !! while (my.ship.cloak == true) my.local == false dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004
Horribad	Posted - 2008.05.07 11:17:00 - [20] Edited by: Horribad on 07/05/2008 11:17:46
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 11:18:00 - [21] Edited by: xHomicide on 07/05/2008 11:18:16 Other MMOs use the term "shards" to define duplicate virtual areas. Most importantly, a character can not pass from one shard to another. EVE on the other hand does not do this - this is good and bad. The advantage is that such a huge universe reduces the need for artificial interferences such as fake resources, fake products, superficial quests, etc. The game is what the players makes of it. The unavoidable disadvantage is the possibility of uneven system load. People naturally cluster together and the current mechanics of EVE lend the advantage to large groups. Add in the fact that all real-time player interactions must run on a synchronous processor and you get a big problem. For example, lets say there are 20,000 characters logged in at any given time. Ideally these players spread themselves across the universe. Meaning, the number of players directly interacting with each other is minimal, that is to say, although there are 20,000 characters online at the same time in the same universe each player is only directly interacting with several other players at once. This allows the processing load to be spread out across many systems. That is the ideal situation. In contrast, imagine that 1,000 of the 20,000 pilots get together and have an epic orgy. As we all know, orgies require direct character interaction and therefore must be processed on a single system. Guess what, the single synchronous processors that CCP can afford cannot process the instructions fast enough to handle 1,000 players directly interacting. In conclusion, things like economy, politics, and universal domination benefit from the massive scope of eve while things that require real-time interaction gain nothing (combat). The reality that EVE players face daily, is that the massive scope of the universe not only lends no favors to the combat system, it inevitability ruins it. Given the inherent nature of most EVE players they value complex objective combat over simple death match combat. Sadly, the only objective based combat option for EVE players is sovereignty combat, which in turn leads way to players massing from across the universe, which in turn leads to uneven system load, which in turn leads to unplayable lag. --- Razor CEI
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries	Posted - 2008.05.07 11:27:00 - [22] How much is lag devided between clientside and server side ? I've never ran a network-monitor with EVE (haven't seen the massive blobs and lag either), but if it's client-side (1000-1500 objects need to be traced) any changes on the serverside won't help.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.07 11:32:00 - [23] At present, the bottleneck is CPU on the server. Since you can't scale CPU power too much, you have to expand in CPU's. At present, the servers are connected with some kind of ethernet solution, which has a high latency. But the the new super cluster they are doing, they can move tasks and services between nodes. So no. Your suggestion assumes that there is just 1 server. That isn't true.

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