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Understand the way to undercut

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Achuraja	Posted - 2008.05.08 05:27:00 - [1] Hi! I am a T2 invention-producer from one month (so a noob :) ) and I'd like to understand some mechanics of the trading, specially the undercutting way. I know about undercutting as a way to drive off competitors from a market and/or buy off their stock when placed 0.01 isk less, I know some people put a low price to liquidate their stock fast but what about undercatting 20-30% in an heavy populated hub? For example, civilian laser is set to 100000 ISK, i place mine at 99999 ISK, why set 80000 when people constantly fight the 0.01 isk war and after 4-5 minutes someone set 799999? Sometimes I think they are T2 BPO owners that have much more profit per piece and can reduce their margin just to drive off t2 invention producer, but what I don't understand is why so heavy! For example, an item is set to 1.4M, after one day it is to 800K with heavy undercut and stays there for some times. Every 1 or 2 week it return to 1.4M and after one day again to 800k: if you know you have competitors every day, why undercut of hundreds and reduce your profit every time ? Thanks!
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.08 06:08:00 - [2] If you sell at 800k instead of 1.4mil, your product will sell faster, since not everyone will follow you down to 800k. How much faster all depends. If you do the .01isk****gotry at 1.4mil everyone will follow you down since its costless. Also I'm amazed that you can even consider undercutting by 20-30%, I thought T2 invention margins had fallen to slightly better than T1.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.08 06:18:00 - [3] I expect that severe undercutting of this kind is a kind of economic warfare - driving people out of the market. I don't see that it works, since there's no cost associated with keeping an item in your inventory indefinitely. Or it could be the work of idiots who don't understand that undercutting by 10k is just as good as undercutting by 100k. Who knows.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.08 06:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 08/05/2008 06:59:32 Why drop so much price? Heheh, I love hearing this all the time. In my recent liquidation I'm certain I was responsible for cutting at least 2000-3000 (10-20%) isk off the price of a wide variety of T2 components, and still people would continually undercut . I noticed many "One item purchases" of people trying to work out who was doing it,, was quite funny to observe. I don't think you need an answer to "Why undercut by heaps when you can just do 0.01 isk" You need to answer the question "Why does everyone undercut someone who is clearly crashing prices or selling below cost?" You're all like lemmings Improve Market Competition!
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.08 07:49:00 - [5] If you're interested in manipulation or undercutting, be sure you're prepared for it. To do it properly, you need to be able sustain a steady loss on an item for a good month if you want the effects to be permanent, at which point your new artificially high or low manipulated price will be seen as the norm. So first consider what you want to do with the item. If it's something you produce you obviously want to set the highest price. If you're using it to repro for minerals, you obviously want to set the lowest price. The process of setting the price is a net loss to you, and to turn around an item and see profit and make your effects permanent on the market, you're looking at 1-3 months of constant price fixing, and you'll see profit only after 6 months if you're doing it correctly. You can manipulate prices for a day or so, but it will be a spike/trough on the price history of the item, so you do that when you have a large amount of stock of an item you know but isn't your main line of business. Civilian AB's are difficult to manipulate, because a) you always have the NPC price to contend with and b) the volume is so high because everyone's using them to repro for trit, the volume is too much for a single person to control. In other words, you're more likely to be broken before you break the market, so be careful! Director \| www.eve-bank.net
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 08:55:00 - [6] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 09:04:12 Originally by: Shakuul If you sell at 800k instead of 1.4mil, your product will sell faster, since not everyone will follow you down to 800k. How much faster all depends. If you do the .01isk****gotry at 1.4mil everyone will follow you down since its costless. plus As long as you can afford to manufacture/supply something in great volume and switch to a different product at any time, it is wise to take the margins down and crash the market progressively in heavy populated hubs while adjusting your price so your product gets sold first. I've crashed a few markets lately then switched to another products while the margins widened again. Don't you just love dragging down the prices by a quite a bit when everyone else is 0.1 isk undercutting? hahah
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Achuraja Hi! I am a T2 invention-producer from one month (so a noob :) ) and I'd like to understand some mechanics of the trading, specially the undercutting way. I know about undercutting as a way to drive off competitors from a market and/or buy off their stock when placed 0.01 isk less, I know some people put a low price to liquidate their stock fast but what about undercatting 20-30% in an heavy populated hub? For example, civilian laser is set to 100000 ISK, i place mine at 99999 ISK, why set 80000 when people constantly fight the 0.01 isk war and after 4-5 minutes someone set 799999? Sometimes I think they are T2 BPO owners that have much more profit per piece and can reduce their margin just to drive off t2 invention producer, but what I don't understand is why so heavy! For example, an item is set to 1.4M, after one day it is to 800K with heavy undercut and stays there for some times. Every 1 or 2 week it return to 1.4M and after one day again to 800k: if you know you have competitors every day, why undercut of hundreds and reduce your profit every time ? Thanks! Becouse many people playing the market don't really know how it works. They dislike 0.01 "cartels" and think that cutting by large steps will make their sales better. In some extreme cases it really work, but usually they just cut their own profits as others follow them until absurd price is reached. It is quite common in T2, ppl don't have patience. It is almost pleasure for me to 0.01 cut back anyone who thinks that this 100k cut is gonna make some difference.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:23:00 - [8] Increasing buy order price by .01 isk is perfectly logical and sensible. However those who advocate reducing sell orders by .01 isk really don't have a clue about trading and I'm not about to give them a clue anytime soon(damn I'm beginning to sound like Shadarle) Ok I will give a clue Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. Sometimes when you have enough isk to feel comfortable you can trash the market just to liven up an otherwise humdrum carebear existence
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Roguehalo Increasing buy order price by .01 isk is perfectly logical and sensible. However those who advocate reducing sell orders by .01 isk really don't have a clue about trading and I'm not about to give them a clue anytime soon(damn I'm beginning to sound like Shadarle) Ok I will give a clue Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. Sometimes when you have enough isk to feel comfortable you can trash the market just to liven up an otherwise humdrum carebear existence Hahah, exactly!
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Roguehalo Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. I will rather deliver goods to their station and sell for premium price than lower my hub prices to force them to come to me. It kinda makes more money than crashing markets, which results in no profit. You need to decide if you trade for profit or for some "omg-i-just-pwned-all-those-n00bs-by-crashing-the-market" feeling.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:00:00 - [11] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:05:14 Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:03:49 Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Roguehalo Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. I will rather deliver goods to their station and sell for premium price than lower my hub prices to force them to come to me. It kinda makes more money than crashing markets, which results in no profit. You need to decide if you trade for profit or for some "omg-i-just-pwned-all-those-n00bs-by-crashing-the-market" feeling. Logistics aside, sooner or later you will have to lower your prices too, while the bastard undercutting everyone in a hub by big chunk is making more profit by selling a higher volume a lower price. There is another reason why people buy in hubs - all the modules they want to fit their ship with are in just one place. Unless you can provide fitting packages don't even think about hauling a product and selling at a premium price god knows where.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:03:00 - [12] Edited by: Robacz on 08/05/2008 10:03:26 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:00:00 Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Roguehalo Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. I will rather deliver goods to their station and sell for premium price than lower my hub prices to force them to come to me. It kinda makes more money than crashing markets, which results in no profit. You need to decide if you trade for profit or for some "omg-i-just-pwned-all-those-n00bs-by-crashing-the-market" feeling. Logistics aside, sooner or later you will have to lower your prices too, while the bastard undercutting everyone in a hub is making more profit by selling a higher volume a lower price. Well I would cut his low hub price right away, I was just speaking about using low hub price as a tool to sell more - I will rather sell portion of my stuff in non-hub stations for higher price than lower one station price to attract more customers.
Transvaal	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:09:00 - [13] Sometimes when another trader sinks a market with a bulk low-price sell order of non-manufactured items (ie production cost is not an issue) it's just because he or she is happy making a guaranteed 1% margin instead of sharing a 10-20% margin with other traders. Sometimes it's motivated by wanting to drive away other traders, but sometimes it's just poor trading. When I find a trader setting an unnecessarily low sell order in one of my markets, I'll drive the price down to where he's making virtually no margin and then I'll sit just above his crappy low order -- capping him. With time, most traders drift off and lose interest in their capped 1% margin which then leaves me with the freedom to raise prices again once his items are sold out. You can't get fat margins in every market all of the time, but with patience you can get healthy margins in a good percentage of your markets most of the time. Keeping price setting leverage (ie an active order) in your primary markets and exercising patience when one of those markets is being low-balled or challenged with 0.01 undercutting is how I play my markets. Of course, every market strategy is predicated upon a trader being committed to having a long term presence in, and a good understanding of, that particular market. Any alternate viewpoints?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:11:00 - [14] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:15:24 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:00:00 Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Roguehalo Setting a sell price is not only about beating the people selling at the same station as you, it's also about persuading somebody at another station to fly to where you have stuff for sale. Ofc if all else fails you can just trash the market which probably is what the op is complaining about. I will rather deliver goods to their station and sell for premium price than lower my hub prices to force them to come to me. It kinda makes more money than crashing markets, which results in no profit. You need to decide if you trade for profit or for some "omg-i-just-pwned-all-those-n00bs-by-crashing-the-market" feeling. Logistics aside, sooner or later you will have to lower your prices too, while the bastard undercutting everyone in a hub is making more profit by selling a higher volume a lower price. Well I would cut his low hub price right away, I was just speaking about using low hub price as a tool to sell more - I will rather sell portion of my stuff in non-hub stations for higher price than lower one station price to attract more customers. The one reason I can think of for selling some products in god forsaken systems is the lack of competition. Your profit will be lower even by selling at a premium price and ripping off the lazy ones, however it is guaranteed profit for those that don't like babysitting their orders or don't have that much time to play.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:30:00 - [15] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:16:49 Originally by: Robacz Well I would cut his low hub price right away, I was just speaking about using low hub price as a tool to sell more - I will rather sell portion of my stuff in non-hub stations for higher price than lower one station price to attract more customers. The one reason I can think of for selling some products in god forsaken systems is the lack of competition. The profit will be lower even by selling at a premium price and ripping off the lazy ones, however it is guaranteed profit for those that don't like babysitting their orders or don't have that much time to play. Why do you think profit would be lower? Knowing the region you trade in is one of trader's basic assets. You should know where to put stuff to get good sales. In many regions it is possible to completly replace hub sales by 2-3 other systems. While courier costs are usually about 2% of your stuff value, increased margin is in 10s of %. Besides, no one says you have to sell ONLY in distant systems. Ideal is combination of hub sales and sales in distant system. Instead of lowering price to sell more stuff, you sell this stuff in those distant systems. This is what I argue about - I won't be lowering hub price like mad just to attract more customers. I will rather take part of my hub stock and distribure it to distant systems for higher profit. Besides, when you look on graphs, lower price often have very limited effect on sales volume. Epsecially when we speak about T2 items (not ships though), 20% +/- from standard price will have neglible effect on sales volume in given station.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:38:00 - [16] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 10:38:44 Originally by: Robacz Why do you think profit would be lower? Knowing the region you trade in is one of trader's basic assets. You should know where to put stuff to get good sales. In many regions it is possible to completly replace hub sales by 2-3 other systems. While courier costs are usually about 2% of your stuff value, increased margin is in 10s of %. Besides, no one says you have to sell ONLY in distant systems. Ideal is combination of hub sales and sales in distant system. Instead of lowering price to sell more stuff, you sell this stuff in those distant systems. This is what I argue about - I won't be lowering hub price like mad just to attract more customers. I will rather take part of my hub stock and distribure it to distant systems for higher profit. Besides, when you look on graphs, lower price often have very limited effect on sales volume. Epsecially when we speak about T2 items (not ships though), 20% +/- from standard price will have neglible effect on sales volume in given station. You do have a point there, however it really depends on the size of your wallet and the volume you want to push on the market. I have only 8B in my wallet and I prefer lowering the cycle isk -> isk by fast selling what I manufacture at a lower price in different hubs.
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:20:00 - [17] A lot of my trade is done in 0.0, so its not entirely the same thing, but one thing I've learned is that I make a lot more profit by selling a large number of reasonably priced goods than a small number of high margin goods. Higher margins also end up attracting more competition, which eventually drives profits down worse than setting my prices at a reasonable level to begin with.
Ordon Gundar Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Achuraja For example, civilian laser is set to 100000 ISK, i place mine at 99999 ISK, why set 80000 when people constantly fight the 0.01 isk war and after 4-5 minutes someone set 799999? Buy it for 80,000 mate, and re-list it for 99,999. Simple as. "Stay Small..Fly Fast..Keep Your Ship" - Ordon Gundar - Low Sec Survivalist & CEO of Danger Zone Enterprises
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:35:00 - [19] Not the same thing as your talking about per se, but if I have 1 or 2 items that I want to dump sometimes I will market them 10 or 20 percent off compared to the guy with 1000 plus items to sell. I am hoping they will either sell fast or the person with the large order will just buy my junk up so that folks will not follow it down. I usually do that when I am not going to be around the market for a few days and just dont feel like having to do the .01 isk thing all the time.
No Mahd	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:40:00 - [20] At one point in a traders career - for example when they have lots of buy and sell orders available to them - it will not be practical to play the slow 0.01 ISK game, because their stock will not move. Also, in my limited experience, there are many traders in a given region and good things will not last very long, so competition will force the prices down, and competitors will try and force you out!!
Mirithol Gallente Enigma Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:49:00 - [21] In response to the 0.01 you may want to make a statement and match each undercut by some consistent number like 666. After a few rounds of this and that, the other guy notices and then you may even increase the number to 6666. or more. Rinse and repeat. This is a polite way of saying "Get the F out of my market." OK - so you know I don't trade in Jita. If the hint is not taken then since I subsidize the local pirate crew I incentivize them to discourage the competition. I help define the competition btw. Then I buy and trade the stuff. Simple and effective. Thanks to Kaaii for the seed idea and also to an undisclosed group of low down scally-wags for making it work so....profitably.
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.05.08 15:54:00 - [22] Edited by: abraheam on 08/05/2008 15:55:19 Under cutting by 20% is kinda useless IMO. It isnt like you are going to "generate" enough new volume to make up for the lost margins. There are only so many buyers out there. It isnt like there are different brands with loyal consumer bases to erode. Selling is pretty straight forward, and you are creating more effort on your part in terms of logistics, that anyone serious about making ISK probably isnt going to "screw" a perfectly functioning market. If the opposite were true the .01 ISK game wouldnt exist.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.05.08 16:01:00 - [23] Originally by: abraheam Edited by: abraheam on 08/05/2008 15:55:19 Under cutting by 20% is kinda useless IMO. It isnt like you are going to "generate" enough new volume to make up for the lost margins. There are only so many buyers out there. It isnt like there are different brands with loyal consumer bases to erode. Selling is pretty straight forward, and you are creating more effort on your part in terms of logistics, that anyone serious about making ISK probably isnt going to "screw" a perfectly functioning market. If the opposite were true the .01 ISK game wouldnt exist. Try it is all i'll say, from my own experience if I notice alot of movement in one of my line ie lots of people cutting each other by 0.01isk I find if i join in I get the odd sales here and there if im lucky enough to get a buyer before i'm undercutt. After Logging off and logging in the next day I notice the 0.01 game has gone on all night without me ad I made no sales. When i drop by a significant ammount but am still making profit I notice a few still undercutt but when I log on the next day All or most of my stock is gone. I know which method i will continue to use. dropping by 20% cutts into profit but i have more Isk to play with the following day. And can spendless time spamming 0.01Isk mods
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.05.08 16:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Midas Man Try it is all i'll say, from my own experience if I notice alot of movement in one of my line ie lots of people cutting each other by 0.01isk I find if i join in I get the odd sales here and there if im lucky enough to get a buyer before i'm undercutt. After Logging off and logging in the next day I notice the 0.01 game has gone on all night without me ad I made no sales. When i drop by a significant ammount but am still making profit I notice a few still undercutt but when I log on the next day All or most of my stock is gone. I know which method i will continue to use. dropping by 20% cutts into profit but i have more Isk to play with the following day. And can spendless time spamming 0.01Isk mods Fair enough. I will keep my 20% profit margins and change items when people such as yourself move in. I will save my self the time and risk of increased logisitics by utilizing trade alts to do the undercutting I will take into account by undercutting by so much the lazy ones will still not come to my mini hub. The movement of that item will not dramaticaly increase. If it does it is most likely other traders gainnig off my logistics. That to me is worse then puching them out of what I would consider a non-profitable market at the prices you sell stuff for.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:08:00 - [25] Trust me as a seasoned vet. If I am undercutting my sales by significant margins, it has a purpose behind it. A very real and very driven purpose that has a wider goal than just "get this item moved" Perhaps I want to lure more mission runners to that station in an effort to move the other 200 items I sell better and reduce the need to contract things to places or ferry it myself reducing my logistics overhead. Perhaps I have a plan to lower the market to abysmal margins, I know it's an item that takes people awhile to catch up in production and once things are at a very horrible rock bottom. I'll buy the entire lot out and mark everything back up. T2 miners are a classic example of something that is so simple to manipulate. Or even perhaps I could give two flying ****s on this margin and am driving prices down to exert a downward effect on the materials used to create them. Less production means more material supply and maybe I want to use those materials to build something else giving me a better margin overall and a better profit in the long term. Really there are hundreds of reasons one does what you speak of, and anyone who discredits it as they have no clue what they are doing is far beyond clueless themselves.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:47:00 - [26] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:54:51 Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:54:06 Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:53:46 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Trust me as a seasoned vet. If I am undercutting my sales by significant margins, it has a purpose behind it. A very real and very driven purpose that has a wider goal than just "get this item moved" [...] Assuming you don't sell in Jita, undercutting your competition by significant margins has the merit of separating the producers from resellers. The last one will think twice before moving items to your chosen store again. Next!
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:52:00 - [27] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:50:04 Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:48:16 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Trust me as a seasoned vet. If I am undercutting my sales by significant margins, it has a purpose behind it. A very real and very driven purpose that has a wider goal than just "get this item moved" [...] Assuming you don't sell in Jita, undercutting your competition by significant margins has the merit of separating the producers from resellers. The last one will think twice before moving items to your chosen store again. Next! I pretty much only buy in Jita, and only resell on speculative stuff. My sales go elsewhere as they return much larger margins.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:18:00 - [28] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:56:56 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Trust me as a seasoned vet. If I am undercutting my sales by significant margins, it has a purpose behind it. A very real and very driven purpose that has a wider goal than just "get this item moved" [...] Assuming you don't sell in Jita, undercutting your competition by significant margins has the merit of separating the producers from resellers. The last ones will think twice before moving items to your chosen store again. Next! Hmm you've actually got this the wrong way round Manufacturers are constrained by their mineral costs(unless ofc they think minerals they mine themselves are 'free') whereas resellers can set their buy prices at any amount they like and thus sell at prices that bear no relation to production costs (reprocessors would go out of business if the people that sell to resellers behaved rationally)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:55:00 - [29] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 20:05:26 Originally by: Roguehalo Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/05/2008 18:56:56 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Trust me as a seasoned vet. If I am undercutting my sales by significant margins, it has a purpose behind it. A very real and very driven purpose that has a wider goal than just "get this item moved" [...] Assuming you don't sell in Jita, undercutting your competition by significant margins has the merit of separating the producers from resellers. The last ones will think twice before moving items to your chosen store again. Next! Hmm you've actually got this the wrong way round Manufacturers are constrained by their mineral costs(unless ofc they think minerals they mine themselves are 'free') whereas resellers can set their buy prices at any amount they like and thus sell at prices that bear no relation to production costs (reprocessors would go out of business if the people that sell to resellers behaved rationally) I am not talking about manufactured items that also drop as mission loot. Most manufactured items (like ships and stuff) have also buy orders in place the price being the cost of production (at least in Jita). There's no way a reseller would manage to supply an item to another hub in enough quantities to pose a threat to a producer.
Chira Netanru	Posted - 2008.05.08 20:05:00 - [30] Edited by: Chira Netanru on 08/05/2008 20:05:32 So what if someone fills those buy orders and lists several days volume at that price? Gonna cry?

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