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Madrosynth Synthesis Deep Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.11 03:28:00 - [31] You'll have to forgive my friend Maradan here. He hasn't yet learned that a Matari can never "murder" only bring the "fangs of freedom" to other humans that are quite obviously "worse than animals." I'll encourage him to hop in his reaper posthaste and fly directly into the side of the first golden ship he sees. Maybe he'll get lucky and take a few hundred slaves with him in the fireball - after all, sometimes you have to sacrifice a few here and there for the greater good. I'm sure they will understand. I'm sure they wouldn't rather be alive. [Take that which is given.]
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.11 03:47:00 - [32] Ah, now it becomes clear. Shouldn't you be blowing up Krushal arms factories and trying to blame it on the Brutor? Nevermind, your words are as predictable and as poisonous as those of you masters.
Madrosynth Synthesis Deep Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.11 04:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Ah, now it becomes clear. Shouldn't you be blowing up Krushal arms factories and trying to blame it on the Brutor? Nevermind, your words are as predictable and as poisonous as those of you masters. If it makes it easier to dismiss what I say by labeling me Ammatar, then so be it. I am no Ammatar, though I do count many fine Ammatar ladies and gents among my friends. I simply a concerned citizen of the cluster, sir, who grows tired of the chestbeating and bloodshed. For example - it is a foregone conclusion that Ushra'Khan and it's like have killed far more slaves than slavers during their operations. Nevermind the fact that the vast majority of slavers you kill simply wake up in a clone vat, while the slaves are snuffed out forever. And you dismiss their entire lives with weak rhetoric about sacrificing a "few" for the greater good. Madrosynth takes a deliberate whiff from a small golden vial I don't expect a serious response...just....toss in something about the golden wings of liberty...or somesuch nonsense... Madrosynth giggles as the com cuts [Take that which is given.]
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.11 05:53:00 - [34] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 11/05/2008 05:54:07 Foregone conclusion my arse. There is serious doubt any slaves are killed during our operations, with the obvious exception of those forced to serve as crew on slaver vessels. If you want to judge us for their deaths you may as well judge every single combat orientated capsuleer in the cluster. This is the weakest attempt at a smear I have ever read. -----------------------------------------
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Karn Mithralia There is serious doubt any slaves are killed during our operations On the contrary, this issue has been brought up again and again, and your comrades have as far as I know never denied that slaves are killed when they attack transports. Perhaps you should spend less time fraternising with anarchists and Sani Sabik cultists and more time trying to stay in touch with reality. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
AltBier Minmatar Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:37:00 - [36] PIE and CVA pretending to care about the well being of slaves? If they cared at all, they would set their slaves free and renounce slavery.
Madrosynth Synthesis Deep Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 11/05/2008 05:54:07 Foregone conclusion my arse. There is serious doubt any slaves are killed during our operations, with the obvious exception of those forced to serve as crew on slaver vessels. I'm sorry, which slaves did you think I was talking about? [Take that which is given.]
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:29:00 - [38] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 12/05/2008 00:32:48 Slaver Blake I refer you to the post by Kade on the first page - that casts serious doubt on the assumption slaves are lost wheh we shoot the transports the empire uses to carry them. Madrosynth read what I wrote carefully, if you are talking about the slaves forced to crew slaver ships I have already provided a response. Perhaps address it? Here it is again for you: "If you want to judge us for their deaths you may as well judge every single combat orientated capsuleer in the cluster." Karn shrugs I am a warrior and make no bones about the blood I have spilt, but I loath gross exaggerations that mislead and confuse. -----------------------------------------
Madrosynth Synthesis Deep Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.12 00:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 12/05/2008 00:32:48 Madrosynth read what I wrote carefully, if you are talking about the slaves forced to crew slaver ships I have already provided a response. Perhaps address it? Here it is again for you: "If you want to judge us for their deaths you may as well judge every single combat orientated capsuleer in the cluster." Karn shrugs I am a warrior and make no bones about the blood I have spilt, but I loath gross exaggerations that mislead and confuse. Not every combat-oriented capsuleer in the cluster screams "WE COME FOR OUR PEOPLE" while blowing their people to hell. It's not the bloodshed that bothers me - I've become somewhat desensitized to that - it's the hypocrisy. Actually, I take that back. It's the bloodshed too. [Take that which is given.]
Kade Jeekin Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:33:00 - [40] Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 12/05/2008 07:33:28 Madrosynth, I remember you. You were the reluctant freed-man, ripped from your masters bosom and kicked heedlessly into the wide world without support. You were so comfortable as one of the slaver's head bodyguards that you found the whole freedom thing frightening and confusing. REF 1 I also remember your most abject apology to the freedom fighting organisations as you started to appreciate your new life.REF 2. Then I saw that you had started a business initiative based on salvaging, I was pleased for you, that you were coming to maturity. REF 3. Now, you turn and attack us again. The winds of freedom can be awry. You are the proof of our course. Fly free. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:50:00 - [41] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 12/05/2008 07:50:56 Mr Madrosynth is an enlightened man. He has made cogent arguments not fain well countered by these tribal brutes. San Matari Official forums
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:26:00 - [42] Edited by: zoolkhan on 12/05/2008 08:27:28 Edited by: zoolkhan on 12/05/2008 08:26:49 Originally by: Kade Jeekin REF 1, 2 and 3 "Outface the depths of evil with clarity" recruiting -forum
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 12/05/2008 00:32:48 Slaver Blake I refer you to the post by Kade on the first page - that casts serious doubt on the assumption slaves are lost wheh we shoot the transports the empire uses to carry them. Of course, I imagine that you're too busy looking forward to your next meeting with Sani Sabik cultists to notice the slave bodies in the wrecks that you leave behind. I could point you to any one of the hundreds of kill-mails on your kill-board that show that when a ship is destroyed, a portion of the contents of its cargo hold are also destroyed. Are you seriously suggesting that the cargo in a non pod controlled vessel is somehow preserved during an explosion while the cargo in a pod controlled vessel is not? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:51:00 - [44] A simple cargo scan before liberation and a head count after would seem to verify what Kade has already stated. It might be time to change the recording.
Ardan Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:32:00 - [45] Why must I always repeat my self? Are some so dense that it just does not get through? Ok, One more time. If, in an attempt to free our people, we killed every slave in the empire that is alive today, we still would not come close to the mass murder that the amarr have commited against the Matari for a thousand years. Ok, we are talking a thousand years, that is 365,000 days. On each one of those days there have been numerous slave raids on the outer settlements where people are killed, familys are torn appart and children are killed in an attempt to capture them. Then we cant forget the war, that the amarr waged against us to enslave us to begin with, how many millions of innocent Matari died then? Then the war for freedome, how many died at the hands of amarr trying to gain thier freedome? On all of those 365,000 days, slaves have been beaten to death, tortured to death, worked to death, starved to death, planetary populations exterminated. We are talking numbers in the Billions here people. That's 1,000,000,000 + Minmatar dead because of amarr. Maybe even more than that. Possibly trillions? (add three more zeroes) That is a lot of dead because of the amarr. Every day there are more, weather we attack or not. So explain to me again how we are the villains here. "Let them hate us as long as they Fear us." Colligula
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.12 16:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Ardan So explain to me again how we are the villains here. Justifying your crimes by made up figures is not a cogent argument. San Matari Official forums
Xavian Vaar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:05:00 - [47] Edited by: Xavian Vaar on 12/05/2008 17:06:26 Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Ardan So explain to me again how we are the villains here. Justifying your crimes by made up figures is not a cogent argument. Justifying his crimes with actual figures is impossible because such figures do not exist. When attempting to defend the indefensible, and excuse the inexcusable, Free Range Minmatar often resort to fantasy for answers. I'm not surprised. We shall carry the Word. We shall correct and unify.
Bad Harlequin Minmatar Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:22:00 - [48] ... as everyone continues to quietly ignore the total explosive decompression of the "you're killing your own people" argument, mentioned several times above, as verified by hard evidence. So i thought i'd just point it out again as, y'know, a public service. Me being so civic-minded and all.
Fox Vulcan Gallente LYF Naval Academy	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:28:00 - [49] Edited by: Fox Vulcan on 12/05/2008 22:29:32 And Amarr like you, Vaar, seem incapable of realising that they are not some god spawned avatars, whose only purpose is to rule the galaxy. You have no right whatsoever to take another human being as a slave. If you think you do, you are nothing worse than ammoral animals. Seeing as you seem so in favour of slavery, what say we take you, chain you up, beat you, starve you, ofrce you into cramped crago holds and force you to work twenty hours a day? And dont give me your bloody rhetoric about 'valuing slaves'. The only value you put on slaves is how much they can earn you. People rail against the Gallante for having too much free time and such on their hands. At least the time and rewards we get are earned by our own actions, not taken from the labour of enslaved individuals. **************************** "For Honour and Glory."
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:35:00 - [50] The Ushra'Khan can rely on the help of its brothers in the Federation. Call and Mixed Metaphor will be there. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander
Xavian Vaar Amarr Vaar Stock Logistics	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:15:00 - [51] Edited by: Xavian Vaar on 12/05/2008 23:16:17 Originally by: Fox Vulcan You have no right whatsoever to take another human being as a slave. We believe we do. You may not believe that, but we do. The Minmatar believe that a pattern on the skin brought about by some gene reactive compound means someone is evil, and they have the right to ostracise, beat, torture, starve, humiliate and even kill that individual. When are you going to start on them for having beliefs that don't match your own? So you think we're amoral animals, do you? Perhaps based on your own morality we are, but if you think for one moment we give a damn about your supposed morality to the extent where we're suddenly going to change, you're very much mistaken. I may be missing something here, but maybe you could explain to me where you find the moral high ground to criticise the Amarr for oppressing another culture when your kinsmen are doing precisely that on Caldari Prime. Again. Originally by: Fox Vulcan Seeing as you seem so in favour of slavery, what say we take you, chain you up, beat you, starve you, ofrce you into cramped crago holds and force you to work twenty hours a day? Well, aside from the beating and the starving and the other stuff of holovids which represents the exception, not the rule within the Empire; I acknowledge and accept that should I break Amarrian Law to sufficient degree, that will indeed be my fate, like as not. I will bear my fate with fortitude and humility, or attempt to, but as yet I have not broken the law in any state I commonly frequent. Originally by: Fox Vulcan And dont give me your bloody rhetoric about 'valuing slaves'. The only value you put on slaves is how much they can earn you. See, now you've gotten all personal and you've gone and hurt my feelings. You have absolutely no idea how I treat my slaves. Yes, they do earn me money. The more battered, bruised and emaciated they are, the less money they earn me. I thought we'd been through this? Originally by: Fox Vulcan People rail against the Gallante for having too much free time and such on their hands. At least the time and rewards we get are earned by our own actions, not taken from the labour of enslaved individuals. I think before too long people will rail against the Gallente for having too much blood on their hands. Time will tell, but for now, enjoy your righteous indignation. We shall carry the Word. We shall correct and unify.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:31:00 - [52] Well, my feelings on this matter are well-recorded, but to recap: 1: I believe that the Amarrians should wean themselves off slavery, and that, given time, they will. I also believe that the over-zealous actions of the Ushra'Khan, and their unreasonable demands for the instant and total abolishment of all slavery, are doing a lot to slow this process. 2: The Ushra'Khan and their fellow freedom fighters have a just cause, but I believe that their methods do more to harm than further it. It is time for them to learn how to fight the kind of wars that are fought with tools other than guns and propoganda. They need to learn that their actions can and do result in innocent victims, and that people should not automatically be denied their innocence through the accident of having been born into a culture that endorses slavery. 3: Neither side is wholly in the right, neither wholly in the wrong. No compromise will be acceptable to either side, which is unfortunate, because compromise would still be greater progress than this war has yet seen. Please, don't try and address me in any response you make to this comment. I have argued long and hard with both of you, and in both cases I suspect I'd have gotten further trying to argue with a bulkhead. I'll not waste my time and mental effort on it any longer. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Madrosynth Synthesis Deep Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Kade Jeekin Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 12/05/2008 07:33:28 Madrosynth, I remember you. You were the reluctant freed-man, ripped from your masters bosom and kicked heedlessly into the wide world without support.... It a wonder that I need to explain these things to a Gentleman who presumes to free slaves for a living, but I will. My emotional state swayed wildly when first I was freed. As a result, you can imagine I'm sure, I said and did a few things that I look back upon with regret. It took a very long time to find my inner barometer when it came to the questions of slavery and my own freedom. As you can read in the GalNet postings you cited, I was a man who was in great conflict with himself and the world around him. I take no shame in admitting these things. With that being said, I would ask that you not use my past inner turmoil as some sort of commercial for your cause. You will find that, with time, I have leveled off. I have learned to take a more measured approach to such matters, to see both sides of the coin as it were. The man speaking now is much more qualified to respond to you than the frightened, angry and lost man you quoted above. I have been candid with you, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Ushra'Khan, and I would humbly ask the same in return. Now that the question of my personal history has been thoroughly discussed, I would return to the topic at hand. When you fire on so-called slaver vessels, do you think at all of the slaves that are most likely within? Do you think that they would want you to blow them to pieces and leave nothing of them but flash-frozen hunks of meat? Do you think that they do not value their lives at all, and would rather die screaming than continue a life of service? I await an honest reply. [Take that which is given.]
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:38:00 - [54] Originally by: Madrosynth I await an honest reply. It is a reply they cannot give, for they will forfeit the argument. San Matari Official forums
Esna Pitoojee Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 12/05/2008 23:36:26 Well, my feelings on this matter are well-recorded, but to recap: 1: I believe that the Amarrians should wean themselves off slavery, and that, given time, they will. I also believe that the over-zealous actions of the Ushra'Khan, and their unreasonable demands for the instant and total abolishment of all slavery, are doing a lot to slow this process. 2: The Ushra'Khan and their fellow freedom fighters have a just cause, but I believe that their methods do more to harm than further it. It is time for them to learn how to fight the kind of wars that are fought with tools other than guns and propoganda. They need to learn that their actions can and do result in innocent victims, and that people should not automatically be denied their innocence through the accident of having been born into a culture that endorses slavery. 3: Neither side is wholly in the right, neither wholly in the wrong. No compromise will be acceptable to either side, which is unfortunate, because compromise would still be greater progress than this war has yet seen. 4: there is no such thing as an "acceptable casualty" in a war of ideals. Please, don't try and address me in any response you make to this comment. I have argued long and hard with both of you, and in both cases I suspect I'd have gotten further trying to argue with a bulkhead. I'll not waste my time and mental effort on it any longer. Proof of God's existence can be found in the fact that such sensible men as Mr. Stitcher exist. Amen, friend. Finally, another sees the same logic that I do. Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you. My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp.
Bad Harlequin Minmatar Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:46:00 - [56] Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 13/05/2008 00:47:18 Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Madrosynth I await an honest reply. It is a reply they cannot give, for they will forfeit the argument. Originally by: Bad Harlequin ... as everyone continues to quietly ignore the total explosive decompression of the "you're killing your own people" argument, mentioned several times above, as verified by hard evidence. So i thought i'd just point it out again as, y'know, a public service. Me being so civic-minded and all. Oi! Madro! Scagga or whatever you call yourself! I await you learning to read.
Kade Jeekin Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.13 08:53:00 - [57] Bad Harlequin, I think Madrosynth is moving on to the issue of the enslaved crew rather than those being transported. Ship's crew are a difficult subject, not much research is possible on the escape mechanisms that are available to them. I suspect that even if an Amarrian vessel had the capability of crew escape pods, that they would not be available to the enslaved people. However, this has already been addressed. If there are two types of enslaved crew, the Madrosynths and the truly enslaved, then in the case of the former, they don't mind dying for their lord, and in the latter, we can't let the Empire use our people as meat-shields to protect itself, else they'll just increase the number. Madrosynth, I refer to my comments in the threads to which I referred above. There is no need to go over them again here beyond the point that not all enslaved people are in the position that you were in. Many will sacrifice themselves so that others may be free. The chance of freedom is enough. I don't expect you to understand this, given your conditioning and freedom that you experienced even within slavery, but I have hope that one day you will. Fly free. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.13 09:37:00 - [58] As we have said, while liberating slaves from cargo holds is a fairly safe action these days it is indeed true that ship crews will suffer casualties during rapid decompression. There is nothing anyone can do about that. Slavers use Matari slaves to crew their ships for a couple of good reasons. Matari are far more competent as engineers as is clearly shown by ships like the Vagabond, Rapier or Broadsword. The other is the idea they have that if faced with risking the lives of the very people we mean to save we will not attack their ships. This is clearly no choice at all, if we do not risk the lives of those ship crews then the slavers would be free to massacre colonies at will. As long as the Amarr are a space faring race they will use innocent hostages as a shield to protect them while they go about their genocide. The only ways to change this are for the slavers to stop using slaves and hostages aboard their ships or for the decent people of the cluster to end the space faring days of the Empire once and for all. I am happy with either outcome, I just want to see my people free. Sadly the slavers force us to make the choice, risk the slaves crewing their ships or let the vessel go and watch another colony die.
Snakester Caldari Blood and Money Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:52:00 - [59] I miss u you UK, come back to KBP. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Paddington Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.13 12:01:00 - [60] Outnumbered as usual, we continue to take the fight to the enemies of freedom! We come for our people !

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